Mud Spikes, Wind Spikes, and Aqua Spikes

[Saefinn]

Rambus:

it is illogical to have 5-7 forms of stoneskin, 4-6 forms of blink, 3 forms of ice spikes, 2 forms of thunder spikes, 1 form of aquavail and 1 form of fire spikes and say they are in the same family.

So Ice Spikes, Shock Spikes and Blaze Spikes aren't in same family, as there's 3 types of ice spikes, but only 1 form of blaze spikes?

Though you are right about reprisal. It is a part of the same family. Offers a form of reflect and a defensive buff for shield use.

[Rambus]

you do know there is thunder, fire, ice buffs exist already ?

Rambus:



So Ice Spikes, Shock Spikes and Blaze Spikes aren't in same family, as there's 3 types of ice spikes, but only 1 form of blaze spikes?

Though you are right about reprisal. It is a part of the same family. Offers a form of reflect and a defensive buff for shield use.

there is not a from of spikes that lasts for 30 seconds. true i see your point though, can't really replay to it.

I do not understand why other buffs have define lines but people are trying to claim all over the place buffs with this claim.

hard to explain this, i am trying to say i do not get how one can view a famliy of spells with huge different fuctions.

[Zyeriis]

I like how this thread I made completely restarted arguments that have already been settled/talked about, while ignoring those discussions because of Karbuncle not reading the thread. We went over possible "defensive" buffs for fire/ice/lightning before you posted.

Summary:

"Offensive' SET of Elemental Buffs
Blaze Spikes (Fire)
Ice Spikes (Ice)
Shock Spikes (Lightning)

I want to expand this SET to include the other 3 elements.

"Defensive" SET of Elemental Buffs
Aquaveil (Water)
Stoneskin (Earth)
Blink (Wind)

I want to expand this SET to include the other 3 elements.

Light vs. Dark

"Offensive" SET of Elemental Buffs Additions to the game at a later time (Because SE can do that, hence the entire idea behind the thread?).

Dread Spikes (Dark)
Reprisal (Light)

"Defensive" SET of Elemental Buffs

Phalanx (Light)

What we are truly missing is a Dark based Defensive buff, not a light one. Yes, it wasn't ORIGINALLY for PLD but SE can CHANGE things and ADD things to COMPLETE SETS of spells.

I really don't care about "facts" on the matter when all of them have contradictions to counter with (Phalanx), nor do I care about "NO! Phalanx is just light because there's no such thing as non-elemental spells!" nor "Light and Dark count!" as those are extremely silly "arguments" which I've been over, time and time again. Using them to call yourself right is relatively sad. You can take offense if you want but they are still piss-poor attempts at knocking them down just to be right.

We done having this stupid argument all over again? Can we get back to actually talking about the topic (I'm assuming no but maybe I'll be surprised?)?

[Karbuncle]

I don't know what you think i was arguing, But it was that the idea of Elemental Spikes for Water, Wind, and Earth were dumb ideas, and technically the "spike/buff" version of those elements were present in the form of Blink, Stoneskin, and Aquaviel.

I stand by that argument.

That being said. I Don't agree with the Ideas presented. They are not necessary, Though they would be kinda nice. Back in my noob days i always wondered why we didn't have spikes for those three elements, then i put 2-2 Together and remembered Aquav/Blink/Stones. But It would have been interesting.

(Btw I've already said all of this below, For someone claiming i didn't read, You sure didn't see the part where i Already made Suggestions for "Spikes" for these Elements. For the purpose of Discusssion I'll repeat them)

I think "Earth Spikes" (Mud is stupid) would consist of "Low Damage: Added Effect Slow on hits." wouldn't be bad.
The Wind Spikes, Perhaps could Gravity on hit, Maybe do some damage. and Water Spikes could Poison.

Truthfully, I Originally had them doing no damage, Just Debuffs. But small Damage + Debuffs wouldn't be too bad. I think "Wind Spikes" Actually should be the "pure damage" of the three, Similar to Blaze Spikes.

But then to maintain Balance, We would need to think/create 3 For Lightning, Ice, and Fire in terms of "Defensive Abilities" with no offense. Which is difficult. Because a lot of buffs are already there.

Well I tossed my Idea. Seem to be the same as yours.

But the hard part is naming buffs for the Other 3 Elements (Fire, Thunder, and Ice) so each one has a complete set of 6.

Now, There is another thing, Wouldn't it be better of making 1 of them "pure Damage" Similar to Blaze spikes? perhaps... Perhaps not. back then the only "fire" debuff was Virus, Plague, etc. Didn't have Amnesia. Today we have Debuffs easily for Water/Stone/Wind, So maybe not.

Tough call.

[Kensagaku]

Gonna re-emphasize my earlier post, since this was the point at which Rambus started going off. All my ideas always get buried.

You were looking for suggestions for the different buffs, Krabknuckle, so here's what I had in mind for both "spikes" and "defensive" spells to complete the core elemental circle (with edits from discussions)

Offensive Spikes
Aqua Spikes - Covers you with magical water spikes. Enemies that hit you take water damage. Additional Effect: May inflict Poison on attacking enemies.

Gale Spikes - Covers you with magical wind spikes. Enemies that hit you take wind damage.
~Note: This would be comparable to the other spikes as blaze spikes is to ice/shock spikes at the moment; higher overall damage due to lack of additional effect.

Terra Spikes - Covers you with magical earth spikes. Enemies that hit you take earth damage. Additional Effect: May inflict Slow on attacking enemies.

Defensive Spells
Resonance (Thunder-based): Creates an aura that copies an opponent's offensive spell and counters with it.
~Notes: The user would still take damage; otherwise this would just be a buffed Blink because blink can absorb single-targets. Would only copy two spells, identical to blink. AoEs would be reflected in an AoE around the target, which means that you'd have to be very careful with use.
~Edited note: Would have to not affect certain spells, i.e. Death, etc, otherwise it could be potentially OP. Maybe limit it to spells players can normally cast? That would prevent Meteor/Comet Counters, etc.

Bravery (Fire-Based): Increases the attack power of one target.
~Notes: Would be affected by Accession like any other spell, making it more useful with a /SCH subjob. Would be a smaller boost based on the user's Enhancing Magic Skill but still useful.

Faith (Ice-Based): Increases the magical attack power of one target.
~Notes: Think of this as the magical version of Bravery, adding perhaps a small amount of MAB based on the user's Enhancing Magic.

Just in case you missed it, I felt that these were potential ideas. Mind you they'd need tweaking, but I think it'd be a decent place to start if we were to pursue this train of thought.

[Karbuncle]

Actually, over at BG i suggested Attack and magic Attack increases for Fire/Ice, The Spikes are very similar to the OP's, Its makes sense.

Now the Fire/Thund/Ice Defensive Buffs, Those are Wonderful, Well thought out Ideas with Coherent logical Patterns and thought behind them. Its Amazing what a little time spent can accomplish.

I especially like the Naming. It takes itself from Previous FF games. It fits the Style. Really good job. in fact >.> They're just so awesome i could actually seem them being reasonable to add some day. I mean, I really doubt the Dev team will add any of them any time soon because it seems their responses lately are "yah We're already doing that" or "Ain't happening Til the calender is over". So we Either have to think they're already implementing this, Or we'll get it sometime in 2012

[Rambus]

the idea of "Defensive Spells" is to defend, not to attack and like i said before we have lots of attack buffs.

I was trying to come up with defensive spells that would be new to the game and have applcation for a 99 game.

Fire barrier:
lowers magic damage done to the person.
the hidden notes of this spell would be that it makes your INT vaule in defence higher so unlike MDT you are reducing magic damage at the core (first thing in damage damage is int difference)
the idea of this was to go along the logic lines of burn, burn lowers INT.

ice block:
incases the caster in a block of ice, that makes the user unable to take any action, in retrun, they cannot take any damage for the time it is up (self target, would be a defender move for mages)
*problem with this is that manawall gives this effect, sotra

plasma shield:
lowers effectiveness of Enfeebling magic:

*so when you get Paralyze, it happens less often, a different effect of bars that just heighten resist rates and partial resists. shock lowers mind, and most Enfeebling magic is a mind check.

Noctowall:
An otherworld of energy surrounds the target taking less critical hit damage, grants some max hp, some mp, some magic defense (MDB not MDT) , and some PDT. The PDT bonus would work outside of cap, so be light maybe 5-10% extra PDT.

*idea of notcowall sems from past FF "wall" spell that grants people protect and shell, furthermore it fits in current FFXI concepts where dark affinity grants increases in all stats.

now you can have your gale spikes, aqua spikes and terra spikes without people going omg elements

[Zyeriis]

I don't know what you think i was arguing, But it was that the idea of Elemental Spikes for Water, Wind, and Earth were dumb ideas, and technically the "spike/buff" version of those elements were present in the form of Blink, Stoneskin, and Aquaviel.

I stand by that argument.

That being said. I Don't agree with the Ideas presented. They are not necessary, Though they would be kinda nice. Back in my noob days i always wondered why we didn't have spikes for those three elements, then i put 2-2 Together and remembered Aquav/Blink/Stones. But It would have been interesting.

(Btw I've already said all of this below, For someone claiming i didn't read, You sure didn't see the part where i Already made Suggestions for "Spikes" for these Elements. For the purpose of Discusssion I'll repeat them)

I think "Earth Spikes" (Mud is stupid) would consist of "Low Damage: Added Effect Slow on hits." wouldn't be bad.
The Wind Spikes, Perhaps could Gravity on hit, Maybe do some damage. and Water Spikes could Poison.

Truthfully, I Originally had them doing no damage, Just Debuffs. But small Damage + Debuffs wouldn't be too bad. I think "Wind Spikes" Actually should be the "pure damage" of the three, Similar to Blaze Spikes.

But then to maintain Balance, We would need to think/create 3 For Lightning, Ice, and Fire in terms of "Defensive Abilities" with no offense. Which is difficult. Because a lot of buffs are already there.

Well I tossed my Idea. Seem to be the same as yours.

But the hard part is naming buffs for the Other 3 Elements (Fire, Thunder, and Ice) so each one has a complete set of 6.

Now, There is another thing, Wouldn't it be better of making 1 of them "pure Damage" Similar to Blaze spikes? perhaps... Perhaps not. back then the only "fire" debuff was Virus, Plague, etc. Didn't have Amnesia. Today we have Debuffs easily for Water/Stone/Wind, So maybe not.

Tough call.

You think the ideas for wind/earth/water based spikes is a dumb idea at the same time thinking that it would be interesting, and then tossed your idea (that is practically identical, which you later affirmed in the same post) on the matter. It's a tad confusing/contradictory from this angle.

Anyway, I came up with the name "Mud" Spikes because it causes slow. As in....walking through mud...slows you down. Dumb, I know but it fit and Stone Spikes sounded wrong. That being said, Kensagaku came up with a better name for both Wind Spikes and Mud Spikes in Gale Spikes and Terra Spikes.

As for the pure damage idea, this seems like a bad idea. No one really uses blaze spikes once they have ice spikes because it gives no potential debuffs. If Gale Spikes were pure damage, they would have to do a noticably higher degree of damage and would be highly prone to being overpowered. I believe that's why SE gave ice and shock spikes the potential debuffs so as to not overpower them (this of course is a matter of opinion and not confirmed fact, theory at best). As for the potential enfeeble, I have been leaning toward the gravity potential, as it seems the least potentially overpowered enfeeble to add to the Gale Spikes idea. Dancer gets Gravity in the form of Desperate Flourish, that isn't nearly as good as the spell but still has it's uses. The same logic can be applied here to Gale Spikes causing a potential Gravity effect, which would be nice for kiting.

As for the 3 buffs for the other elements (fire/lightning/ice), I presented some off the top of my head ideas and Kensagaku (see above) ran a bit further with them. Resonance was originally Reflect and ice based but, it appears he changed it to lightning based after some discussion on the matter with the conflicting idea for the previously lightning based idea of Faith as the spell. Faith being a magic attack bonus buff, it was determined it would fit better as an ice based spell in lieu of reflect (though not entirely necessary: sparked discussions about "exceptions" to the "rules" on status effects being a specific element).

The fire based buff was/is the hardest one to come up with. Bravery seems to be the top-contender but there have been some other ideas such as Regain (but didn't want to step on SAM [Meditate = Regain Ability], SCH, or COR's toes, but this is more of a placebo argument on it, as Faith could very well step on other job's toes as well.). Potency was another idea for a Lightning based spell to increase critical hit rate.

Anyway:
Stoneskin = Earth = VIT
Blink = Wind = AGI
Aquaveil = Water = MND
Bravery or Regain = Fire = STR
Faith or Reflect = Ice = INT
Potency or Resonance = Lightning = DEX

[Rambus]

DEX/thunder is acc/ crt hits

regain is light, SCH have a spell already

light is all stats/ or chr only ( depending what you look at)
dark is all stats.

[Kensagaku]

the idea of "Defensive Spells" is to defend, not to attack and like i said before we have lots of attack buffs.

I was trying to come up with defensive spells that would be new to the game and have applcation for a 99 game.

Fire barrier:
lowers magic damage done to the person.
the hidden notes of this spell would be that it makes your INT vaule in defence higher so unlike MDT you are reducing magic damage at the core (first thing in damage damage is int difference)
the idea of this was to go along the logic lines of burn, burn lowers INT.

ice block:
incases the caster in a block of ice, that makes the user unable to take any action, in retrun, they cannot take any damage for the time it is up (self target, would be a defender move for mages)
*problem with this is that manawall gives this effect, sotra

plasma shield:
lowers effectiveness of Enfeebling magic:

*so when you get Paralyze, it happens less often, a different effect of bars that just heighten resist rates and partial resists. shock lowers mind, and most Enfeebling magic is a mind check.

Noctowall:
An otherworld of energy surrounds the target taking less critical hit damage, grants some max hp, some mp, some magic defense (MDB not MDT) , and some PDT. The PDT bonus would work outside of cap, so be light maybe 5-10% extra PDT.

*idea of notcowall sems from past FF "wall" spell that grants people protect and shell, furthermore it fits in current FFXI concepts where dark affinity grants increases in all stats.

now you can have your gale spikes, aqua spikes and terra spikes without people going omg elements

Eh, I don't really have a problem with the fire one off the top of my head, but the other three...

The ice one? You're creating an invincible for mages, and since it's only used in panic moments, it would probably have to be fairly fast cast. This could be potentially abused by TAing a lot of hate onto said mage, having them put up invincible, and heyo, invincible non-acting tank.

Plasma shield - How would this work? Why would it reduce the effectiveness of status ailments? The RP aspect of it aside, giving a "Resist All I" trait via spell seems way OP, especially when we have spells for individual resistances that don't stack with each other (element on element or debuff v. debuff... you can have barparalyze/barblizzard up at the same time, for example).

Noctowall - Waaaaaaay OP. Too many buffs for a single "defensive" spell.