Limbus II feedback

[Alhanelem]

This isn't challenging content, it's a timesink.

You're correct. That's exactly what it's supposed to be. That player message is just warning you not to be irresponsible. Just like your local lottery also warns you not to play the lottery too much. It doesn't mean there can't be or won't be grinds in the game. Anyone who's ever played this game anytime in the last 20+ years understands that grinds have always been central to the game.

[Eth]

Just wanted to add my voice to the chorus of people who have pointed out that the new Limbus experience is completely demoralizing.

It takes over an hour to complete a Temenos or Apollyon climb and get to the final chest, only to frequently not get matter, even with fully upgraded chests due to server NM kills. That is just depressing.

Matter should be 100% drop rate if chests are fully upgraded, and 5k bonus chests should give 2 matters. A substantial exemplar point bonus should be added to the final chest. Furthermore, there ought to be forced pop NMs, or boss NMs that are popped by completing a climb, that give units and an additional chance to obtain matters.

I have done some clears and given up on the system.

[Alhanelem]

It takes over an hour to complete a Temenos or Apollyon climb and get to the final chest, only to frequently not get matter, even with fully upgraded chests due to server NM kills. That is just depressing.

An hour long thing is depressing?

I'm a SMN and I only have Trust to work with. It takes me MUCH longer than that. And while I can only be bothered to do so here and there, I'm only really irritated by the fact that I can only use 3 trust and that they're still significantly inferior right now (although that's slowly changing), because if I could just fill a party of Trust and they were just a bit more capable, it would be significantly faster.

I'm not even after the matter or any of the new crafted stuff at the moment, I've just been upgrading relic armor.

[Voidstorm]

it's because it's 1 hour+ in each apollyon + temenos for a chance at 1 jewel (2 matters + shards). That chance is too low, you're looking at probably a six+ hour grind for one rank even going from rank 0 to 1.

That just isn't worth the effort.

[Zattano]

An hour long thing is depressing?

I'm a SMN and I only have Trust to work with. It takes me MUCH longer than that. And while I can only be bothered to do so here and there, I'm only really irritated by the fact that I can only use 3 trust and that they're still significantly inferior right now (although that's slowly changing), because if I could just fill a party of Trust and they were just a bit more capable, it would be significantly faster.

I'm not even after the matter or any of the new crafted stuff at the moment, I've just been upgrading relic armor.

It takes much longer if playing solo. Ls mates report full clears taking 3-4 hours with mid-tier equipment and 5 trusts.

[Alhanelem]

It takes much longer if playing solo. Ls mates report full clears taking 3-4 hours with mid-tier equipment and 5 trusts.

That's quite a trick when you're only allowed three.

[Eth]

A drop rate of 1/4 on matters means that a fully upgraded (V30) Su4/Su5 limbus piece requires 2*31*4 = 248 climbs.

At only one hour per climb, that's 248 hours of play time. To complete a set of 5 pieces requires 1240 climbs or hours of play time.

Compare this to Sortie: a group that can reliably kill 9 bosses each time, pulls in 80k gallimaufry or more in one hour and can farm the needed 8.52 M gallimaufry for a full stage 5 prime weapon from scratch in 106.5 hours.

A single V30 Su5 Limbus armor piece is clearly not more desirable than two stage 5 prime weapons.

The effort required to make a stage 5 prime weapon was already excessive. The effort to complete Limbus Su4/Su5 armor is absurd.

What needs to happen for a realistic reward to effort ratio and a system that rewards steady progress instead of creating frustration is a guaranteed drop of 1 matter on non-bonus chests.

[Alhanelem]

Compare this to Sortie: a group that can reliably kill 9 bosses each time, pulls in 80k gallimaufry or more in one hour and can farm the needed 8.52 M gallimaufry for a full stage 5 prime weapon from scratch in 106.5 hours.

This sounds to me like the high end of optimal rather than the norm.

Currently relevant "optional" grinds have always been extreme. Unlike XIV they don't have a consistent new content cycle to continuously engage players so some grind need to be long. Relics and mythics when they were new took comparatively long.

I suppose an unanswered question might be are these su5s the REMAs of armors?

[Eth]

This sounds to me like the high end of optimal rather than the norm.

Currently relevant "optional" grinds have always been extreme. Unlike XIV they don't have a consistent new content cycle to continuously engage players so some grind need to be long. Relics and mythics when they were new took comparatively long.

I suppose an unanswered question might be are these su5s the REMAs of armors?

What you are ignoring is the issue of natural progression, or in the case of Limbus, the lack of natural progression.

Sortie is a grind, but the grind gets easier as you grow in gear, skill and M-levels. Beginner groups may only be able to kill top floor bosses and pull in a meager 10k. But if they persist, and improve their skill and gear, they can learn to kill all 8 bosses and pull in 50k; then they can learn to clear Aminon and pull in 80k per run.

So 800 hours of grind per stage 5 for the beginner group that gets 10k per run become "only" 160 hours for the group that clears 8 bosses. 160 hours become just a bit over 100 hours for the group that clears 9 bosses.

This is natural progression. It gives players something to look forward to, a strong incentive for improvement. Get better, and you can finish this radically faster.

Limbus has none of that. Elite groups will not complete a full climb in 10 minutes no matter how good they are. The fixed costs of movement and pulling remain the same. Yes, doing clears at 135 rather than 119 means more units. But it's not factor 8 more units; nor does the chance of getting a matter from the final chest go up. The soul-crushing grind remains soul-crushing.

Natural progression in Limbus would mean for example a set of pop NMs that better players can kill in addition to the grind, or instead of the grind; a system that would allow for example an hour of NM killing in each of the two areas to max out weekly units and result in say 2 guaranteed matters for each zone. That's still 16 weeks to complete an Su4/5 piece; hardly a trivial amount of time.

[Alhanelem]

What you are ignoring is the issue of natural progression, or in the case of Limbus, the lack of natural progression.

Sortie is a grind, but the grind gets easier as you grow in gear, skill and M-levels. Beginner groups may only be able to kill top floor bosses and pull in a meager 10k. But if they persist, and improve their skill and gear, they can learn to kill all 8 bosses and pull in 50k; then they can learn to clear Aminon and pull in 80k per run.

So 800 hours of grind per stage 5 for the beginner group that gets 10k per run become "only" 160 hours for the group that clears 8 bosses. 160 hours become just a bit over 100 hours for the group that clears 9 bosses.

This is natural progression. It gives players something to look forward to, a strong incentive for improvement. Get better, and you can finish this radically faster.

Limbus has none of that. Elite groups will not complete a full climb in 10 minutes no matter how good they are. The fixed costs of movement and pulling remain the same. Yes, doing clears at 135 rather than 119 means more units. But it's not factor 8 more units; nor does the chance of getting a matter from the final chest go up. The soul-crushing grind remains soul-crushing.

Natural progression in Limbus would mean for example a set of pop NMs that better players can kill in addition to the grind, or instead of the grind; a system that would allow for example an hour of NM killing in each of the two areas to max out weekly units and result in say 2 guaranteed matters for each zone. That's still 16 weeks to complete an Su4/5 piece; hardly a trivial amount of time.

I think one issue that could improve this instantly with almost no work is just not punishing players for bringing a bigger group. Larger groups have to get more kills to the point that isn't beneficial at all to do so. I realize they wanted to not put small groups/solos at too big of a disadvantage but at the same time there are people who have been asking for more things to do in an alliance and ironically, even though Limbus allows it, it's not good to do it.