Sortie - Owning a tier 4 Prime weapon punishes players

[Yoji_Fujito]

Good day, everyone,

We have heard your feedback about certain Sortie notorious monster behavior changing once you have reached stage four of the Prime Weapon upgrade process.


Information about This Issue

Those of you who visit the forums are likely aware of the discussion, but for those who don’t, let me apprise you of how it works.
In the May version update, we posted the following in the version update notes:

• Certain Sortie notorious monsters now behave differently depending on the stage of the Prime Weapon you are carrying.

The feedback surrounding this started coming around this time from those who reached this step of the process. “Certain notorious monsters” in this instance refers to the Lower Sortie boss.
Prime Weapons are a type of end game content, and as such the final form of these weapons are intended to be stronger than other weapons found in the game. As such, we believe it is important that the risk be commensurate with the reward, and the changes made to the Lower Sortie boss were intended to ensure this was the case.

The main adjustment that we made, in concrete terms, was changing the timing as which a particular ability was used—no adjustment was made to how hard the ability hits or how it interacts with resistances. I would like to avail myself of the opportunity to tell you that the intended strategy is one in which players utilize a mechanic by which the damage of the ability can be reduced, and that the adjustment made was predicated on the assumption that players would utilize that mechanic.
Every boss in Lower Sortie—from the time of its implementation up through the present day—has a mechanic by which players can reduce the damage of their abilities, delay when their abilities are used, or cancel certain mode changes that make the bosses more threatening.
Players are intended to use these gimmicks to maintain their seals as they tackle the content, and failing to do so makes the bosses much more difficult to tackle than they otherwise would be.

What Effects These Changes Had

We are aware that some of you have expressed concerns that it is more difficult to simply collect spoils and gallimaufry in a “normal” Sortie run if someone with a stage four Prime Weapon is in the party.
The game automatically checks the stages of each player’s Prime Weapon, so if someone is in possession of a stage four Prime Weapon, this phenomenon is unavoidable.

As a result, the player in possession of a stage four Prime Weapon might feel responsible for causing other players to have a more difficult version of Sortie than intended, and may in fact feel some hesitation at joining a party that is simply there to farm resources, as they wish to not make things harder for others.

We did not intend for players to have their gameplay experience or ability to participate in Sortie adversely affected, but if this issue is causing consternation for players, then I feel it must be addressed.

How This Issue Effects Empyrean Armor

Some people have mentioned that they a frustrated by the effects that this has on reforging Empyrean armor, but as mentioned, the adjustments affected only the behavior of the Lower Sortie boss and thus has no effect on reforging Empyrean armor. Even though you have to go to Lower Sortie if you are reforging Empyrean Armor to +3, there is no need for you to attempt the Lower Sortie boss.

These are the two main points surrounding the changes to difficulty level and the effects they are having on farming parties. The latter is a system-based problem and we are currently discussing how to address it.

About the Mechanic

As I discussed earlier, the Lower Sortie Boss is tuned around the assumption that players are properly using the intended mechanic to mitigate damage taken. Although utilizing the mechanic will not make the boss a walk in the park, perhaps shedding a bit of light on it will make overcoming the challenges the boss poses a bit easier and well known amongst the community at large.

While the discussion below assumes one or more players has a Prime Weapon at stage four, these mechanics will work regardless of difficulty level.

The mechanic for handling the notorious monster properly revolves around the two temporary items Ra’Kaznar Seal and Ra’kaznar Metal.

Posessing these items allows you to mitigate the corresponding notorious monster’s special ability. However, these items degrade each time the NM uses its ability, and when their durability reaches zero they will cease functioning. However, they will slowly regain durability over time as long as they have at least some durability remaining.

Dhartok
Dhartok changes modes after a certain ability is used.
If you force him to absorb damage of a particular element, the durability of your seal will degrade, so be careful when dealing elemental damage.
One Dhartok’s behavior changes, he will use the ability at increasing frequency, so using the seal to mitigate the poison damage will prove critically important.

Gartell
Dealing damage under certain conditions while Gartell is in wind or lightning mode will causing two blue exclamation marks to appear, and doing that same kind of attack multiple times will cause him to switch modes from wind to lightning or vice versa.
Whenever Gartell switches modes, the next use of his special ability will be delayed. Properly managing how often you switch him between wind and lightning mode will prove critical.


Triboulex
It is possible to decrease the damage done by Setting the Stage by repeatedly dealing light-based damage. Note that autoattack-based damage does not count towards this amount.
He will use the ability at set intervals, but once his behavior changes he will also use it at certain HP thresholds, so be conscious of when you are bringing him down below those thresholds.

Aita
If you deal him damage with an elemental weakness that corresponds to his special attack (for example, by using a water attack if his special ability is fire), thn two blue exclamation marks will appear. Note that autoattack-based damage does not count.
Repeatedly causing the exclamation marks to appear in this manner will decrease the damage dealt by Vivisection. Not that if you cause him to absorb elemental damage, the potency of Vivisection will instead increase, so use caution when attacking.
When Vivisection’s damage is brought below a certain threshold, his wings will disappear and the rate at which your seal’s durability decreases will be slowed, so keeping him in this state will prove vital.

Aminon
Dealing damage multiple times with an elemental weakness that corresponding to his special attack when his earrings glow will cause a Zisurru to vanish.
If you are able to properly manage that number of Zisurru, you will be able to delay his use of Bane of Tartarus. Maintaining this state will prove key to victory.

While I do not believe we have fully solved how to handle this issue, I wanted to be able to share with what the intended behavior was and provide the relevant information in a clear way.
The other unintended side effects that these changes have had on gameplay are an issue that we are currently researching, and we are discussing potential measures that we may wish to take.

Thank you, and best of luck in Sortie!

[Sp1cyryan]

Good day, everyone,

We have heard your feedback about certain Sortie notorious monster behavior changing once you have reached stage four of the Prime Weapon upgrade process.


Information about This Issue

Those of you who visit the forums are likely aware of the discussion, but for those who don’t, let me apprise you of how it works.
In the May version update, we posted the following in the version update notes:



The feedback surrounding this started coming around this time from those who reached this step of the process. “Certain notorious monsters” in this instance refers to the Lower Sortie boss.
Prime Weapons are a type of end game content, and as such the final form of these weapons are intended to be stronger than other weapons found in the game. As such, we believe it is important that the risk be commensurate with the reward, and the changes made to the Lower Sortie boss were intended to ensure this was the case.

The main adjustment that we made, in concrete terms, was changing the timing as which a particular ability was used—no adjustment was made to how hard the ability hits or how it interacts with resistances. I would like to avail myself of the opportunity to tell you that the intended strategy is one in which players utilize a mechanic by which the damage of the ability can be reduced, and that the adjustment made was predicated on the assumption that players would utilize that mechanic.
Every boss in Lower Sortie—from the time of its implementation up through the present day—has a mechanic by which players can reduce the damage of their abilities, delay when their abilities are used, or cancel certain mode changes that make the bosses more threatening.
Players are intended to use these gimmicks to maintain their seals as they tackle the content, and failing to do so makes the bosses much more difficult to tackle than they otherwise would be.

What Effects These Changes Had

We are aware that some of you have expressed concerns that it is more difficult to simply collect spoils and gallimaufry in a “normal” Sortie run if someone with a stage four Prime Weapon is in the party.
The game automatically checks the stages of each player’s Prime Weapon, so if someone is in possession of a stage four Prime Weapon, this phenomenon is unavoidable.

As a result, the player in possession of a stage four Prime Weapon might feel responsible for causing other players to have a more difficult version of Sortie than intended, and may in fact feel some hesitation at joining a party that is simply there to farm resources, as they wish to not make things harder for others.

We did not intend for players to have their gameplay experience or ability to participate in Sortie adversely affected, but if this issue is causing consternation for players, then I feel it must be addressed.

How This Issue Effects Empyrean Armor

Some people have mentioned that they a frustrated by the effects that this has on reforging Empyrean armor, but as mentioned, the adjustments affected only the behavior of the Lower Sortie boss and thus has no effect on reforging Empyrean armor. Even though you have to go to Lower Sortie if you are reforging Empyrean Armor to +3, there is no need for you to attempt the Lower Sortie boss.

These are the two main points surrounding the changes to difficulty level and the effects they are having on farming parties. The latter is a system-based problem and we are currently discussing how to address it.

About the Mechanic

As I discussed earlier, the Lower Sortie Boss is tuned around the assumption that players are properly using the intended mechanic to mitigate damage taken. Although utilizing the mechanic will not make the boss a walk in the park, perhaps shedding a bit of light on it will make overcoming the challenges the boss poses a bit easier and well known amongst the community at large.

While the discussion below assumes one or more players has a Prime Weapon at stage four, these mechanics will work regardless of difficulty level.

The mechanic for handling the notorious monster properly revolves around the two temporary items Ra’Kaznar Seal and Ra’kaznar Metal.

Posessing these items allows you to mitigate the corresponding notorious monster’s special ability. However, these items degrade each time the NM uses its ability, and when their durability reaches zero they will cease functioning. However, they will slowly regain durability over time as long as they have at least some durability remaining.

Dhartok
Dhartok changes modes after a certain ability is used.
If you force him to absorb damage of a particular element, the durability of your seal will degrade, so be careful when dealing elemental damage.
One Dhartok’s behavior changes, he will use the ability at increasing frequency, so using the seal to mitigate the poison damage will prove critically important.

Gartell
Dealing damage under certain conditions while Gartell is in wind or lightning mode will causing two blue exclamation marks to appear, and doing that same kind of attack multiple times will cause him to switch modes from wind to lightning or vice versa.
Whenever Gartell switches modes, the next use of his special ability will be delayed. Properly managing how often you switch him between wind and lightning mode will prove critical.


Triboulex
It is possible to decrease the damage done by Setting the Stage by repeatedly dealing light-based damage. Note that autoattack-based damage does not count towards this amount.
He will use the ability at set intervals, but once his behavior changes he will also use it at certain HP thresholds, so be conscious of when you are bringing him down below those thresholds.

Aita
If you deal him damage with an elemental weakness that corresponds to his special attack (for example, by using a water attack if his special ability is fire), thn two blue exclamation marks will appear. Note that autoattack-based damage does not count.
Repeatedly causing the exclamation marks to appear in this manner will decrease the damage dealt by Vivisection. Not that if you cause him to absorb elemental damage, the potency of Vivisection will instead increase, so use caution when attacking.
When Vivisection’s damage is brought below a certain threshold, his wings will disappear and the rate at which your seal’s durability decreases will be slowed, so keeping him in this state will prove vital.

Aminon
Dealing damage multiple times with an elemental weakness that corresponding to his special attack when his earrings glow will cause a Zisurru to vanish.
If you are able to properly manage that number of Zisurru, you will be able to delay his use of Bane of Tartarus. Maintaining this state will prove key to victory.

While I do not believe we have fully solved how to handle this issue, I wanted to be able to share with what the intended behavior was and provide the relevant information in a clear way.
The other unintended side effects that these changes have had on gameplay are an issue that we are currently researching, and we are discussing potential measures that we may wish to take.

Thank you, and best of luck in Sortie!

While we appreciate your response. I believe there are some misconceptions by the development team. This does impact the creation of Empyrean Armor +3 because these bosses—which most groups did not have a real issue with before—are the best source of Gallimaufry and Starstones. While it doesn't stop the creation it does slow it significantly.

Further, players have yet to figure out how the Fetid Ixion functions to obtain the metal.

Finally, many players already understood how the tricks of these bosses work. The issue is there is a difference between what you are saying and how these notorious monsters work. For instance players use 99k Trueflights with 99k light skillchains, and with the metal in possession and still get destroyed by Setting the Stage. Players trigger weakness (!!) on Aita regularly and it isn't often enough. How many times did you expect? Even with the Ra'Kazanar Seal on Aminon, players were only able to beat it reasonably before with Absorb TP, and the Seal is destroyed pretty quickly otherwise. Which makes the fight unreasonably difficult and unrewarding for the time spent.

Players are upset because this extra challenge added to the fight becomes a time sink with no extra reward. They feel punished rather than challenged. If there was large reward increase for the difficulty increase then players would be happier to take longer fighting or change tactics. Otherwise, they just get discouraged from this system.

[Gwydion]

Good day, everyone,

How This Issue Effects Empyrean Armor

Some people have mentioned that they a frustrated by the effects that this has on reforging Empyrean armor, but as mentioned, the adjustments affected only the behavior of the Lower Sortie boss and thus has no effect on reforging Empyrean armor. Even though you have to go to Lower Sortie if you are reforging Empyrean Armor to +3, there is no need for you to attempt the Lower Sortie boss.

With all due respect Director Fujito, you are telling players with Stage 4 Weapons and those who wish to farm Empyrean +3 Armor to simply avoid playing together. This is extremely divisive and will only further serve to decrease collaboration and hinder participation among players who want to do Sortie. All players want to farm gallimaufry but not be divided according to their current goals (progress towards Armor vs Weapons).

All players are accustomed to a certain amount of Gallimaufry per run, but now he or she must now accept lesser gains when joining a group of players who want to farm Empyrean +3 or avoid the Lower Sortie Bosses altogether. This artificially limits the progress of both groups of players. It also diminishes the pool of available players, reduces the gallimuafry gain for Stage 4 weapon holders, and alienates everyone involved.

To be honest, this kind of division should not exist, but if you were to insist, I would suggest creating an extra area for Stage 4 or Stage 5 weapon owners with Enraged Monsters. This would mean the current play style is unhindered by any one particular player's progress. The group can then decide to continue runs as we have been for the past year or to take the new Enraged area. For the folks seeking the increased challenge, the new rooms/areas with Enraged monsters could fill that need.

Please remember, the entire player base wants to earn Gallimaufry, but does not want to do so at the expense of each other's progress. On some days, just finding enough people with the correct jobs, is a success.

[ragnarzero]

While I do not believe we have fully solved how to handle this issue, I wanted to be able to share with what the intended behavior was and provide the relevant information in a clear way.
The other unintended side effects that these changes have had on gameplay are an issue that we are currently researching, and we are discussing potential measures that we may wish to take.

Has the Team thought about Star Stones or Star Sapphires being traded to make +2/+3 gear, or even for an amount of gallimaufry (like 5k and 2k or something like that).

I feel like if you were to lower the gallimaufry requirement slightly it might be an easier pill to swalllow with the monsters being harder. Like instead of 1mil, 2.5mil, and 5mil, what if it was 500,000, 1 mil, 2 mil, and take more psyche like 5 per tier to gate keep it that way. Its less grinding against harder bosses

The shear amount of points it takes, on average of 30,000-35,000 points a run, it will take 242 runs or almost 1 year to get enough points. If these points were lowered people could farm multiple weapons for all the jobs the enjoy playing. I really don't want to spend 1 year at a time to get 1 of these weapons (and that is if my friends don't get bored and leave) because I know solo people are getting at best 12,000-15,000 which means it would take almost 3 year for me to get one.

[Sp1cyryan]

The shear amount of points it takes, on average of 30,000-35,000 points a run, it will take 242 runs or almost 1 year to get enough points.

And groups are doing 40k+ easily. These should take the better part of a year or more to make by virtue of their power. Balance went out the window with several of these weapons. The annoying part is the process is so dry rather than varied like a mythic would be.

[Gwydion]

Has the Team thought about Star Stones or Star Sapphires being traded to make +2/+3 gear, or even for an amount of gallimaufry (like 5k and 2k or something like that).

I feel like if you were to lower the gallimaufry requirement slightly it might be an easier pill to swalllow with the monsters being harder. Like instead of 1mil, 2.5mil, and 5mil, what if it was 500,000, 1 mil, 2 mil, and take more psyche like 5 per tier to gate keep it that way. Its less grinding against harder bosses

The shear amount of points it takes, on average of 30,000-35,000 points a run, it will take 242 runs or almost 1 year to get enough points. If these points were lowered people could farm multiple weapons for all the jobs the enjoy playing. I really don't want to spend 1 year at a time to get 1 of these weapons (and that is if my friends don't get bored and leave) because I know solo people are getting at best 12,000-15,000 which means it would take almost 3 year for me to get one.

Lowering the Gaullimaufry requirement doesn't help us in this situation for the reasons others have already posted. However, exchanging sortie items for gallimaufry is also being discussed on the JP forums. (Trading Cases/stones for 2k/5k gallimaufry). I like this idea, I would prefer the exchange rate be 20% or higher (just like Bayld and Wildskeeper Rieve items). This would make 70k Starstones worth 14k Gallimaufry when returned.

If we could address the +2 earring distribution by making Old Case +1 yield more frequent +2 earrings OR perhaps even offer Old Case +2 as a purchasable and equitable item, I would be ecstatic. (For example, old case +1 and old case +2, costing 50k and 100k gallimaufry respectively, that would be great in my opinion).

Just some food for thought.

[leia]

Prime Weapons are a type of end game content, and as such the final form of these weapons are intended to be stronger than other weapons found in the game.

Prime Weapons has Dethroned REMA Weapons. I'm so disappointed :/

[ragnarzero]

Prime Weapons has Dethroned REMA Weapons. I'm so disappointed :/

I don't think they "Dethroned", they are good, and yes even strong (borderline OP) but anyone who has made multiple REMAs know they all have their own place.

Look at the Guns, Earp is good and might beat out Fomalhaut as a physical damage WS gun, but "Store TP"+10 "TP Bonus"+500 is still strong, and good when you need quick strong skill chains. Death Penalty will still be top tier for Leaden, and I'm sure Armageddon will be best for Wildfire spam.

No REMA even comes close to Yagrush and what it can do for a whm.

[Aslani]

Prime Weapons are a type of end game content, and as such the final form of these weapons are intended to be stronger than other weapons found in the game.

As has been mentioned before, this comment is NOT true. Many of the Prime weapons (mostly the one-handed weapons) are quite weak. The Naegling, which can be obtained by a relatively new player from a single day of farming Ambuscade, is stronger than an "ultimate" Prime weapon that takes almost a year of daily Sortie. If SE is going to make us work this hard, the reward should be worth it.

Right now, many of the Prime weapons are merely useless trophies. This, combined with the unreasonable requirements for obtaining a Prime weapon will surely drive players away from Sortie, and the game as a whole.

[Sirmarki]

As has been mentioned before, this comment is NOT true. Many of the Prime weapons (mostly the one-handed weapons) are quite weak. The Naegling, which can be obtained by a relatively new player from a single day of farming Ambuscade, is stronger than an "ultimate" Prime weapon that takes almost a year of daily Sortie. .

RIP Naegling...