The importance of job points

[PlumbGame]

I think we used to spend our "whole evening's gaming time" just levelling jobs slowly to 75, and obtaining merits slowly. That is the core game FFXI, it is a long-term game, with "deferred gratification" and a slow long-term progression system.

They did eventually buckle to pressure and allow people to get xp and merits super-quickly, around 2010, but for the first six years or so the core FFXI game was about slow progress, ie. spending your evening game time notching up a few more points on your character's development.

So what I'm saying is that really this has always been the nature of FFXI, it is about spending your whole evening and making small progress as part of a long-term character building system. The progress overall is many times faster today than it ever was, with ilvl and trusts and RoE FoV Gov etc. but ultimately FFXI is a long-term RPG system.

As for the "I can't possibly get job points capped on all my jobs" type of thing, I don't think it was ever intended to be <That way.> I think JobPoints are similar to the old 75 days when most people had one or two main jobs at 75, and were slowly trying to max merits on those couple of main jobs. So again I think Jobpoints are true to the original FFXI game, as opposed to the sort of weird aby mutant creature it became later.

Job Points do represent a sort of minor nod to the past, with a slightly slower pace than what was allowed in Aby xp burns etc. Jobpoints are more true to the original FFXI game than any other additions of the past five years. In that Jobpoints do take time, and do involve chipping away at the progress a little bit every night, with a long term view to improving your character gradually - which is what FFXI started out as in the beginning, and what so many people were doing when FFXI was at its most popular.

Although I definitely approve of some content reminding me of my Nostalgia I disagree that Job Points are similar to the old days. They are the same idea as merits, but the rate of exp to gain them is significantly higher than EXP was back then. I feel the need to mention this (again), not because of you, but because you will probably get attacked that people don't want the old days as a valid excuse to change something that is already not like the old days.

I do think the JPs are also being overlooked as possibly a way to constantly be able to progress your character through EXP. I think this is why it may be crucial to not ever design content around the need for these, though they are easy to get. As far as we know, they aren't, so some of the over exaggeration by certain players isn't really merited as they seem to be making it out to be.

[dasva]

No, sorry, I don't think spending my whole evening's gaming time to gain one or two points solo is "a reasonable pace." I recall someone doing the math awhile ago and it worked out to OUTRAGEOUS amounts of time to cap CPs, especially if a person likes to play more than one job or is on a job that doesn't get invited to CP parties/other content that drops them.

As outrageous as those times are they are only the tip of the iceberg. Remember they are adding 2 more categories next update (and from the sounds of it making them more important/necessary to get) which will increase the amount needed to cap by 33%. But wait there's more... eventually they might increase the cap to 30 per category which assuming progression remains the same will require over 8 times as much as to cap as they are now at 10

[dasva]

I think we used to spend our "whole evening's gaming time" just levelling jobs slowly to 75, and obtaining merits slowly. That is the core game FFXI, it is a long-term game, with "deferred gratification" and a slow long-term progression system.

Yeah but here's the crux you could merit on any job and the amounts needed to upgrade were much smaller and the upgrades much larger for the most part.

For example a good pt was getting 2 merits an hour alternately I soloed a lot on blm getting a little over 1 an hour. Took 74 merits to do job specific stuff hard to factor in other things since it was highly job dependent and some categories could be borrowed by other jobs but that means it could take less than 40 hours to cap a job outside of things like stats/skill which you might have already had and could be done on any job.

Meanwhile a good pt is what 2-3 jp an hour normally? But it takes 330 to cap jp (as of right now it stands to increase by a lot) so ends up being much slower than merits were.

You also have to remember that the game is about vertical progression now while back then it was about horizontal and marginal increases. So spending a lot of time on merits made sense considering other improvements were often slower and more marginal... now though in the time it takes you to cap 1 job a new set of jp have come out as well as a few new sets of armor to get as well as some new battle system to explore/learn

[Malithar]

Meanwhile a good pt is what 2-3 jp an hour normally? But it takes 330 to cap jp (as of right now it stands to increase by a lot) so ends up being much slower than merits were.

You also have to remember that the game is about vertical progression now while back then it was about horizontal and marginal increases. So spending a lot of time on merits made sense considering other improvements were often slower and more marginal... now though in the time it takes you to cap 1 job a new set of jp have come out as well as a few new sets of armor to get as well as some new battle system to explore/learn

Try 8+ at least during non campaign (honestly, past two months we've spent MORE time with campaign than without), if not closer to 15-20 when running with an optimal group with cape, campaign, and Cor.

The bolded is important for all this talk of the old days and such. Back then, you'd spend hours just grinding merits to improve a job. Now, you grind exp for an hour, cap sparks, cap accolades, cap merits, all while getting JPs to better your job. The merits go towards BCs, sparks towards pages or gil, accolades towards Wanted for gear or gil. We're able to multitask in that way far better than we ever could. All this talk of hours and hours for JPs is silly when you need those hours and hours to be able to do other content too, unless you're of the mind that Delve and Skirmish are all that exist, and even then, you're earning those same things in there, just at a much slower pace.

Think of it as 4 birds with one stone. Besides only being applicable on the job you're earning them on, what's the honest downfall?

[dasva]

Try 8+ at least during non campaign (honestly, past two months we've spent MORE time with campaign than without), if not closer to 15-20 when running with an optimal group with cape, campaign, and Cor.

The bolded is important for all this talk of the old days and such. Back then, you'd spend hours just grinding merits to improve a job. Now, you grind exp for an hour, cap sparks, cap accolades, cap merits, all while getting JPs to better your job. The merits go towards BCs, sparks towards pages or gil, accolades towards Wanted for gear or gil. We're able to multitask in that way far better than we ever could. All this talk of hours and hours for JPs is silly when you need those hours and hours to be able to do other content too, unless you're of the mind that Delve and Skirmish are all that exist, and even then, you're earning those same things in there, just at a much slower pace.

Think of it as 4 birds with one stone. Besides only being applicable on the job you're earning them on, what's the honest downfall?

well yeah I meant like base rate not double campaign throwing out rings capes and and cor. I'll count those as the standard when they make them the standard... speaking of which given how often they do that and given how people feel about how slow it is why not just make the double campaigns permanent.

You also have to remember you have a good group to do stuff and don't play much during NA prime time on a server with good everything but NA population lol. Check the shouts for every jp pt I see there are 5-10 abyssea xp pts. And neither are what I'd call common. So most people aren't logging on and capping merits, sparks and accolades in an hour. And I think you know that given how limited the number of good camps are compared to the amount of competition you end up facing. For those it's working for it's great for the rest it's not so much.

[Malithar]

All I play during is NA time now, I switched to a 1st shift job about 2 months ago. And yeah, you're right, most still do their merits in Aby. That's moronic. :/ There's plenty that are interested in JPs enough to try though, and that's all it takes. Rings and capes are the standard though. If you're too cheap to spend 100k or whatever for +25% JPs, then there's not much help anyone can give you. Ring, same deal, if 5k Sparks or using your Red Pells when they roll around on a Vocation is too much, idk what to say. Cor, fair enough, won't always find one. Should still try though.

As far as parties, I've gotten numbers like that in less than ideal parties. It's really not that hard, you just need to gauge which camp is best for what you have. Lack buffers? Hit up Dho or a gates basement area with acc sets/food. Buffers? Hit up Woh Gates various camps, worms + rabbit loop is very lucrative if you can maintain it. Lack a good healer? Make sure buffers are prepared to pitch in, have a Dnc come, etc. Hell, I've kept a Dho Gates pugil/crab party alive as Geo/Rdm with a Geo-Regen + cures. We had to camp towards the middle of the area and pull towards us, but it still provided decent CP rates even though it wasn't ideal. My most lucrative one was what most would consider a bad party: 2x Blu War Geo Whm and a roll only Cor. Pulled in just under 17 JPs in an hour at the bat camp.

I agree that JPs work great for the one's who can make it work. But I'd argue that the one's who can't make it work just aren't trying. They hide behind "no one would take me" "no one wants to do them" "there's no benefit" "it's not worth it" etc. Time, fair enough. But you'd have the same complaint no matter how they set them up, unless it became nearly a handout as some in the thread have jumped to calling it. We've had tons of 2x rate campaigns. If you haven't capitalized on those, then full timing 2x rate won't change your mind.

[dasva]

A cape yes. But obviously some will be much better than others. True the ring is only 5k but it's 5k for a little over 1 jp so as fast as you are talking about it actually adds up fast. There is also the whole gearswapping before kills that can make things better for some who can do it easier with less errors this is especially true of mages who are more likely to cast or idle in non ilvl gear.

Anyways I was getting at your experience isn't the norm. As far as the hiding Idk... I have tried to make one or 2 which resulted in shouting for awhile and not much interest. I've also tried to join a couple and been told brd, cor, whm, geo or gtfo... except that really weird one a couple weeks ago where the guy was making some 18 person pt lol. So I started doing most mine while doing other stuff as you said. It's a lot slower but well I need the balyd anyways. But man if you got one going I want in!

[Stompa]

Yeah but here's the crux you could merit on any job and the amounts needed to upgrade were much smaller and the upgrades much larger for the most part.

For example a good pt was getting 2 merits an hour alternately I soloed a lot on blm getting a little over 1 an hour. Took 74 merits to do job specific stuff hard to factor in other things since it was highly job dependent and some categories could be borrowed by other jobs but that means it could take less than 40 hours to cap a job outside of things like stats/skill which you might have already had and could be done on any job.

Meanwhile a good pt is what 2-3 jp an hour normally? But it takes 330 to cap jp (as of right now it stands to increase by a lot) so ends up being much slower than merits were.

You also have to remember that the game is about vertical progression now while back then it was about horizontal and marginal increases. So spending a lot of time on merits made sense considering other improvements were often slower and more marginal... now though in the time it takes you to cap 1 job a new set of jp have come out as well as a few new sets of armor to get as well as some new battle system to explore/learn

I agree with you about the obtaining merits on any job, and this has been my only criticism of Jobpoints since the start. On the one hand I can understand the Lore and logic of Jobpoints being so specialised that SE made them available only on the job you earned them on, this makes sense to me in a purely logical RPG kind of way, but it has problems when it is translated to practical gaming.

As I said early on in this thread, I actually feel bad when I go help my friends on my WHM. I have helped them on my WHM for over ten years and I never felt bad about it, but I do now. Because I am getting jobpoints for divine seal and stuff, and on a utility job that I only play to help people, and that I can play perfectly well without jobpoints or godly gear. I have great admiration for serious WHMs who play it as Main, I am not criticising the job or people who play it as Main at all, only that I don't care about it one bit and so all the job points I would get by helping my friends on my WHM, are wasted Jobpoints to me.

So it really is a case of Jobpoints locked into the job you are playing, makes a lot of sense on paper, as Lore and basically common sense. But the system breaks down when it reaches ground level, and you end up earning points on jobs you don't care about, while your Main job does not progress. It is to the point I will go fishing or something instead of just rushing to help my friends on my WHM, and this is a new experience for me as I have always previously been happy to switch to WHM and support my friends' event.

[PlumbGame]

All I play during is NA time now, I switched to a 1st shift job about 2 months ago. And yeah, you're right, most still do their merits in Aby. That's moronic. :/ There's plenty that are interested in JPs enough to try though, and that's all it takes. Rings and capes are the standard though. If you're too cheap to spend 100k or whatever for +25% JPs, then there's not much help anyone can give you. Ring, same deal, if 5k Sparks or using your Red Pells when they roll around on a Vocation is too much, idk what to say. Cor, fair enough, won't always find one. Should still try though.

As far as parties, I've gotten numbers like that in less than ideal parties. It's really not that hard, you just need to gauge which camp is best for what you have. Lack buffers? Hit up Dho or a gates basement area with acc sets/food. Buffers? Hit up Woh Gates various camps, worms + rabbit loop is very lucrative if you can maintain it. Lack a good healer? Make sure buffers are prepared to pitch in, have a Dnc come, etc. Hell, I've kept a Dho Gates pugil/crab party alive as Geo/Rdm with a Geo-Regen + cures. We had to camp towards the middle of the area and pull towards us, but it still provided decent CP rates even though it wasn't ideal. My most lucrative one was what most would consider a bad party: 2x Blu War Geo Whm and a roll only Cor. Pulled in just under 17 JPs in an hour at the bat camp.

I agree that JPs work great for the one's who can make it work. But I'd argue that the one's who can't make it work just aren't trying. They hide behind "no one would take me" "no one wants to do them" "there's no benefit" "it's not worth it" etc. Time, fair enough. But you'd have the same complaint no matter how they set them up, unless it became nearly a handout as some in the thread have jumped to calling it. We've had tons of 2x rate campaigns. If you haven't capitalized on those, then full timing 2x rate won't change your mind.

We've had roughly 50days total of double CPs (this is including the one starting tomorrow) since the creation of JPs in march 2014 (look at the date, should be able to grind plenty since then WITHOUT double CP even). Roughly 36mins have to be spent a day during double CPs @ 10jps an hour (which is SUPER realistic and lower than what a lot of parties can do) to cap out an entire job. So time consuming though.

[Camiie]

As for the "I can't possibly get job points capped on all my jobs" type of thing, I don't think it was ever intended to be <That way.>

Just because it's "working as intended," doesn't necessarily mean that's how it should be. The devs are FAR from infallible in both intent and execution.

I think JobPoints are similar to the old 75 days when most people had one or two main jobs at 75, and were slowly trying to max merits on those couple of main jobs. So again I think Jobpoints are true to the original FFXI game, as opposed to the sort of weird aby mutant creature it became later.

How many "main jobs" I have and wish to max out should be for me to decide. The devs should really keep their intentions out of it.

Job Points do represent a sort of minor nod to the past, with a slightly slower pace than what was allowed in Aby xp burns etc. Jobpoints are more true to the original FFXI game than any other additions of the past five years. In that Jobpoints do take time, and do involve chipping away at the progress a little bit every night, with a long term view to improving your character gradually - which is what FFXI started out as in the beginning, and what so many people were doing when FFXI was at its most popular.

I don't want the past. I never asked for the past to rear it's ugly head again. It was dead and buried and I desperately wanted it to stay that way. The game is more fun to me now than at any point in the past except maybe for Abyssea. But now I have to suffer so that SE can appease a few people who are stuck with nostalgia goggles on. I don't mind the existence of the JP system. Although I think it really should have been an extension of the merit system, which wasn't broken, and no one I know of had any problem with.