[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Afania]

I routinely beat endgame content with jobs like dragoons and beastmasters on this game. If there was really such a huge flaw in this game's design that makes these jobs not even worth a spot in a group, then that would not be possible.. And I know you don't like when I use that argument - but it's the truth as I see it. So that's why I keep using it.

I never meant to imply I didn't invite Samurais to events either. I can however do endgame content without them. You do not need samurais. You can be successful with or without them. That was my point.

I'm not sure why do you bring up "player mentality" over and over again, this isn't even the point.

If you can beat a content with BST, that means it'd be "too easy" for SAM. Then there's a game difficulty design issue, because the difficulty should be equal, instead of certain setup gets "just right" difficulty and certain setup gets "too easy" difficulty.

Again, just because X job can beat the content, doesn't mean there are no flaws in game design.

Arguing for change is one thing. But believing your job is just so awful it doesn't even contribute and doesn't deserve an invite is another.

It's not that the community are "believing" the job is so awful in this case, it's math. It's not an opinion, it's fact. There isn't anything you can do if X job just do 2~3 times more dmg than another job.

Whether other jobs deserve an invite is depend on individual, but you can't change math, numbers and facts. If someone choose not to invite a person/job, there's nothing you can do about it.

Also: I should point out I gave my reasons as to why I didn't think a Samurai was over-powered. None of them reasons had to do with the player mentality. So I don't think you are being fair to me by when you say I just pretend everything is "player mentality" issue and walk away. That's not what I did.

Your reason wasn't legit, when we use SAM as a dmg dealer, obviously we use it in a situation that enmity doesn't matter, I'm not sure why'd you bring up enmity cap in this discussion.

[Afania]

A perfect balance is never going to happen. Nor should it in my opinion. Imbalance is part of what makes the gameplay interesting and sets classes apart from each other to begin with.

This should be discussed in a case-by-case basis, it's not black or white.

There are certain job that I think it's just fine, IMO THF, BLU, DNC, MNK, DRG, RNG and COR are just fine, even though they do less dmg than SAM. I don't think DRK and WAR are fine and they'd need a buff/unique ability. I think PUP and BST needs a complete overhaul that's more than just dmg buff.

I think SAM def needs a nerf.

There are certain jobs that I feel ppl just exaggerating it's uselessness(such as THF), but there are certain job that's clearly imbalanced and that needs a fix.

If you want to discuss the class balance issue, express your opinion about jobs, balance and math, let SE know how to fix it. But don't just pop in the forum and say "It's player mentality's fault for not inviting other jobs! I clear events without those jobs all the time!"

[Dale]

I'm not sure why do you bring up "player mentality" over and over again, this isn't even the point.

If you can beat a content with BST, that means it'd be "too easy" for SAM. Then there's a game difficulty design issue, because the difficulty should be equal, instead of certain setup gets "just right" difficulty and certain setup gets "too easy" difficulty.

Again, just because X job can beat the content, doesn't mean there are no flaws in game design..

Not sure why you are confused as to why I brought it up because I pointed out why. I bring it up when I see people believing certain jobs do not contribute in a group or aren't worthy of a party spot. That is what I blame the player mentality for - perpetuating that false narrative and I will continue to challenge it when I see it. I also disagree with you that just because something can be beaten by a Beastmaster than means it would be too easy with a samurai.

It's not that the community are "believing" the job is so awful in this case, it's math. It's not an opinion, it's fact. There isn't anything you can do if X job just do 2~3 times more dmg than another job.

Whether other jobs deserve an invite is depend on individual, but you can't change math, numbers and facts. If someone choose not to invite a person/job, there's nothing you can do about it. ..

We've already gone over this so there is no need to repeat it. We just disagree. Because it's not math that is responsible for certain jobs not getting invites on this game. It's because of, yes - player mentalities like yourself

Your reason wasn't legit, when we use SAM as a dmg dealer, obviously we use it in a situation that enmity doesn't matter, I'm not sure why'd you bring up enmity cap in this discussion.

It wasn't legit according to you maybe. But I found it perfectly legit. You have to take into account enmity and the job's ability to withstand damage before you can call a job over-powered. I know you want to just base everything around damage and ignore everything else. But I'm not like that.

[Mitruya]

It shouldn't take 30 pages of arguments to point out that just because one or two people are able to enjoy their game experience, all the other people who aren't need to have their voices heard, too.
It's great that people like Dale and others whose names I can't remember are laid-back enough to play for fun and let friends come on alternate DD job or whatever.
But we can't let SE believe that "my job is fine, the gameplay is fine, I can clear content just fine" when you've got all the rest of us screaming about how we're NOT having that great of a game experience. We can't totally blame it on the playerbase.

[Dale]

This should be discussed in a case-by-case basis, it's not black or white.

There are certain job that I think it's just fine, IMO THF, BLU, DNC, MNK, DRG, RNG and COR are just fine, even though they do less dmg than SAM. I don't think DRK and WAR are fine and they'd need a buff/unique ability. I think PUP and BST needs a complete overhaul that's more than just dmg buff.

I think SAM def needs a nerf.

There are certain jobs that I feel ppl just exaggerating it's uselessness(such as THF), but there are certain job that's clearly imbalanced and that needs a fix.

If you want to discuss the class balance issue, express your opinion about jobs, balance and math, let SE know how to fix it. But don't just pop in the forum and say "It's player mentality's fault for not inviting other jobs! I clear events without those jobs all the time!"

And I would ask you to do the same.

If you want to discuss class balance and your opinion about jobs that is fine. But if someone does it in the context of saying certain jobs do not contribute to a group or aren't worthy a party invite - then you are broadening the scope of your argument in ways I will challenge and dismiss as an exaggeration created by obsessive players.

And if you view my earlier posts, I have discussed ways to improve jobs without ever referring to the player mentality. You keep acting as if I always just bring that up - but that's just not true. I only bring it up when people start exaggerating. Though even when I don't bring it up - you still attack my opinions and say they are not legit. So it really doesn't matter what I say to be honest

[Dale]

It shouldn't take 30 pages of arguments to point out that just because one or two people are able to enjoy their game experience, all the other people who aren't need to have their voices heard, too.
It's great that people like Dale and others whose names I can't remember are laid-back enough to play for fun and let friends come on alternate DD job or whatever.
But we can't let SE believe that "my job is fine, the gameplay is fine, I can clear content just fine" when you've got all the rest of us screaming about how we're NOT having that great of a game experience. We can't totally blame it on the playerbase.

No game is perfect and improvements can always be made. I pointed that out earlier, and even discuss areas where I think change should happen often on these forums.

What I blame the players for is this idea that certain jobs are so bad they don't even deserve an invite or a spot in a party. That is not SE's fault, because no job is in such a state to warrant that kind of attitude towards them.

[Mitruya]

I agree with you somewhat, Dale, and I understand what you're trying to say. I just wish more people felt like you did.

[Mitruya]

It's not really an irrational fear. Pet jobs at one point were pretty op. I'm pretty sure the incremental pet job updates is because they don't want to get back to the point where a single pet job could solo any endgame content. It's not like they are making no effort on improving pet jobs.

Yeah, I do understand, and I appreciate the baby steps. It's just not enough yet for anyone to let me come PUP to endgame.

[Dale]

I'm pretty sure WoW's classes changed so drastically more as an attempt to continually simplify the game than to keep everyone's DPS in line. FFXI doesn't require that sort of change. BST doesn't need to necessarily play differently. It simply needs more output. I'm not proposing that the pet be placed on auto-pilot or they do away with the need for pet aggro control and maintenance. Pets need to become uncapped, be un-neutered as far as abilities, and allowed to be buffed. Killer Instinct needs to become a buff that's more universally useful. .

They were done away with because people were ostracizing all of the support-style classes because they didn't do as much damage. Very similar to what is going on here. Because jobs that don't do as much damage as others usually have other elements to them - which is why SE designed them to do less damage in the first place.

I'm not opposed to beastmaster improvements.

I'm
I'm not asking for perfect. I'm not that stupid. But right now SE doesn't even care to try. This is still a group based game and if a job has nothing substantial to offer a group then what's even the point of it? I'm not even talking DPS at this point. There's literally nothing a BST can sell himself on to get into a group. Emergency tank isn't a selling point. You can blame player mentality all you want, but we can only work with what SE gives us. We can't take our lemons and make lemonade. No matter how hard we squeeze there's no juice to be had..

And I disagree. I like beastmasters and their ability to off-tank is very handy. I will welcome one into my group any time and not regret it so long as they are well-played.

The game IS suffering now. Sure it's for a myriad of reasons, but I guarantee you that the lack of anything resembling class balance is one of them.

And I guarantee you the main reason it is suffering is because of these players who obsess over damage and can't appreciate anything else.

[Dale]

I agree with you somewhat, Dale, and I understand what you're trying to say. I just wish more people felt like you did.

There is more of us out there who feel this way then you might think.