Do you think one day there will be a MMORPG where helping others....

[Lithera]

No, it is elitism. Most who have an excessive amount of wealth, power, or intelligence do not treat their lessors with any decency. Only because they feel those people are a waste of their time and money and thus feel the need to exclude. also I don't think elitism has ever been viewed in a positive light by anyone, but those who are of the elite and their friends.

[mattkoko]

Hopefully there is a moderator in these forums and will notice the behaviour of people like Afania and do what is need to be done about it before these forums get a horrible reputation for those starting the game or those who just want to discuss things about MMORPGs.

If there was a moderator in these forums doing their job, they would have deleted this thread entirely by now. You said it yourself that this is not a thread about FFXI. And you claimed you would report those that are talking about FFXI. It is very hard to take you seriously when you tell people not to talk about FFXI in a FFXI forum. You should be the one being reported for starting a thread about MMOs in general but gtfo if you want to talk about FFXI.

In conclusion, you can't report people for talking about FFXI in a freakin FFXI forum lol.

[Malithar]

No, it is elitism. Most who have an excessive amount of wealth, power, or intelligence do not treat their lessors with any decency. Only because they feel those people are a waste of their time and money and thus feel the need to exclude. also I don't think elitism has ever been viewed in a positive light by anyone, but those who are of the elite and their friends.

So what do you call someone who plays at the top of their game, who gears for any and all situations that arise, yet treats others with respect and doesn't exclude beyond typical exclusionary barriers (6 person limit, need x job, etc)? Your definition and assertion that any and all who might be "elite" are automatic dicks is pretty insulting.

[Afania]

No, it is elitism. Most who have an excessive amount of wealth, power, or intelligence do not treat their lessors with any decency. Only because they feel those people are a waste of their time and money and thus feel the need to exclude. also I don't think elitism has ever been viewed in a positive light by anyone, but those who are of the elite and their friends.

I don't agree with you. Some ppl tend to treat others bad, not because they have "excessive amount of wealth, power or intelligence", but because they have terrible personality. Even if they're not "elite", they're still going to treat others like that. Your action has nothing to do with status, wealth and power.

Also most of the "elites" exclude other ppl not because they look down on others, but because they need to get things done.

I want to work for Microsoft, but how come Microsoft doesn't hire me? Is it because they have wealth/power and look down on me? No, it's because my skill and ability can't help them get things done!

[Seillan]

I don't agree with you. Some ppl tend to treat others bad, not because they have "excessive amount of wealth, power or intelligence", but because they have terrible personality. Even if they're not "elite", they're still going to treat others like that. Your action has nothing to do with status, wealth and power.

Also most of the "elites" exclude other ppl not because they look down on others, but because they need to get things done.

I want to work for Microsoft, but how come Microsoft doesn't hire me? Is it because they have wealth/power and look down on me? No, it's because my skill and ability can't help them get things done!

Comparing the qualifications involved in getting a highly competitive job at a mufti-billion dollar company to getting a spot in a group on a video game? This is the reason some of us around here will never see eye to eye.

It's a game, not a job. Yes, everyone still wants to get something done, but I for one don't give a damn if progress takes a bit longer because we didn't play with the most optimum party setup or because we allowed a new player the chance to see and experience content he or she would have otherwise possibly not seen for a long time (if ever.) Hell, I just consider it extra challenge, if anything. And besides, how are inexperienced players supposed to get that "skill and ability" if those with experience are so fixated on their own personal gain that they never give said inexperienced player a chance? Everyone has to learn somewhere/sometime, after all.

[Camiie]

Whether in a game setting or in real life people tend to forget how things were when they were just getting started somewhere. They forget that there was a time when they were less than optimal and didn't know everything. That annoying, ignorant rookie used to be you and someone wasted their valuable time on you or you wouldn't have got to where you are today. The fact that you're unwilling to pay that forward says more about you than it does the undergeared and unprepared newbie.

[Seillan]

Whether in a game setting or in real life people tend to forget how things were when they were just getting started somewhere. They forget that there was a time when they were less than optimal and didn't know everything. That annoying, ignorant rookie used to be you and someone wasted their valuable time on you or you wouldn't have got to where you are today. The fact that you're unwilling to pay that forward says more about you than it does the undergeared and unprepared newbie.

Ha, you said what I almost put right at the end of my post. I think you're exactly right that some players seem to lose sight of what it was like to be "wet behind the ears" after they've been playing games like this for a long time. I'd argue that it's actually one of the largest barriers of entry that new players face in older games, since they tend to be substantially top-heavy by those that have seen and done it all. That's what I mean when I talk about "elitism" -- putting personal gain over the human element of the genre. If you want a game to continue to grow and prosper, you should take time (even if only occasionally) to help inexperienced players get to a point where they can effectively contribute, rather than ostracize them for being "bad" -- which does more harm than good in the long run.

[Afania]

Comparing the qualifications involved in getting a highly competitive job at a mufti-billion dollar company to getting a spot in a group on a video game? This is the reason some of us around here will never see eye to eye.

It's a game, not a job. Yes, everyone still wants to get something done, but I for one don't give a damn if progress takes a bit longer because we didn't play with the most optimum party setup or because we allowed a new player the chance to see and experience content he or she would have otherwise possibly not seen for a long time (if ever.) Hell, I just consider it extra challenge, if anything. And besides, how are inexperienced players supposed to get that "skill and ability" if those with experience are so fixated on their own personal gain that they never give said inexperienced player a chance? Everyone has to learn somewhere/sometime, after all.

It doesn't matter if it's a position in a multi-billion dollar company or a spot in a video game, human mind works the same way, and make decisions in the same way.....if they can invite the others to do the job better, or play with friends/ls mate they like, that's why random stranger don't get a spot.

If you don't care about the optimal setup, that's good. But you can't ask others to act the same way as you.

Although I agree that new players need a chance to learn and gear, the fact is that there's also a chance that they leech for advantage and leave. I've seen too many, I went out and spend my time to get ppl gear and get 0 benefit, then they depop, change LS or quit after they get what they want.

If you've ever been in a ls leader position, leading harder endgame events such as legion before SoA, while dealing with the complexity of human nature left and right, you'd probably have different opinion toward "getting a spot in a video game". Because it's a lot more than "just another spot in a video game".

Afania, please stop making posts. You're now at an even 1,000 posts so any more would ruin you forever.

OP raged because my post are considered "trolling and off topic" to him, I wonder why he didn't rage at you.

Double standard I suppose.

[Afania]

Ha, you said what I almost put right at the end of my post. I think you're exactly right that some players seem to lose sight of what it was like to be "wet behind the ears" after they've been playing games like this for a long time. I'd argue that it's actually one of the largest barriers of entry that new players face in older games, since they tend to be substantially top-heavy by those that have seen and done it all. That's what I mean when I talk about "elitism" -- putting personal gain over the human element of the genre. If you want a game to continue to grow and prosper, you should take time (even if only occasionally) to help inexperienced players get to a point where they can effectively contribute, rather than ostracize them for being "bad" -- which does more harm than good in the long run.

I think half of the "you're bad" comment came from doing weird decision instead of being inexperienced though. If you're a new player telling the pt "I don't have experience, please tell me what to do", most ppl are willing to give suggestions and won't go all out raging at them if they parse low or anything.

Most of the "you're bad" comment I've seen in this game direct toward ppl wearing very good gears, but unable to use them effectively. Such as SAM using tsuru or mythic wearing full 119 armor set got outparsed by a BLU.....and the list goes on.

[Seillan]

If you've ever been in a ls leader position, leading harder endgame events such as legion before SoA, while dealing with the complexity of human nature left and right, you'd probably have different opinion toward "getting a spot in a video game". Because it's a lot more than "just another spot in a video game".

I've been in similar positions during my time in quite a few other mmorpgs over the years and honestly... no, my opinion wasn't any different after those experiences. At the end of the day, it's just a video game. It's here for fun and relaxation. As soon as people start turning it into some kind of e-sport -- where winning is everything, and all else takes a back seat -- that's when I start scratching my head. I'd have to refer back to Dale's post earlier where he wondered how people with that mindset get through life without a heart attack. I'm inclined to agree. Why take something like this so seriously? It's a pastime activity; nothing more.

Granted some people enjoy playing efficiently and that's all they want to do, but I think everyone needs to stop and remember (especially if they're the type of person that berates less experienced/skilled players) that they were new once too. I'd wager that every single vet of this game and any other online game, has had quite a few boost ups and helping hands from other players during their journey. That shouldn't be a rarity just because a game gets to the twilight years of its life.

I think half of the "you're bad" comment came from doing weird decision instead of being inexperienced though. If you're a new player telling the pt "I don't have experience, please tell me what to do", most ppl are willing to give suggestions and won't go all out raging at them if they parse low or anything.

Most of the "you're bad" comment I've seen in this game direct toward ppl wearing very good gears, but unable to use them effectively. Such as SAM using tsuru or mythic wearing full 119 armor set got outparsed by a BLU.....and the list goes on.

On that note, I'd argue that some people might just have a harder time adapting and learning to excel with their class. Or it could be an older player with bad arthritis so they're not quite as quick on the draw as others. They may be trying their damnedest but still come up short for an issue they can't control. Of course, if someone fits a description like that, it's best if they don't attempt demanding content with a PUG group, but I'd be lying if I said it wouldn't brighten my day a little to see a random group accept a player like that, despite the loss in efficiency, just to help that person see and do something they probably couldn't have otherwise. That's the kind of community spirit I like to see in a game, and it's unfortunately something I haven't seen much since my days in UO and Asheron's Call.