I think I'm finished; a new player's final thoughts

[Renaissance2K]

In the Before Time, we didn't need to pass quite as many hard checkpoints - Limit Break quests, mission quests, zone unlocks, etc. - to get caught up with the rest of the game veterans. But the checkpoints were a Hell of a lot more difficult because of the lower level cap, and leveling was also an incredibly-large time investment.

At least, now, when you're running around with that shopping list of prerequisites, the scenery is changing. Compare that to hundreds of hours of attacking the same pink birds over and over again. Assuming you could get a party invite in the first place.

[bungiefanNA]

Please stop posting in my topic. I've said this time and time again, go away.

Reported you this time, I've already asked nicely for you to stop harassing me, multiple times.

By putting speech in the public view, you give up control of that speech in how other people react to it. The forum or thread aren't yours, and when you post something, you are opening up that post to response in doing so. That is the responsibility of speaking in public. Other people are free to be offended or not, but they are allowed to express their reaction as much as you are allowed to express yours. By responding, you are feeding the conflict, when ignoring it can let it die down.

Did you ever get a social shell and try communicating with them? That's my first order of business when I end up without an active shell. It's really hard to play this type of game without some sort of support network. MMOs just grow so much, and this is an ancient one in regards to this genre.

[Afania]

I'm curious what you'd say to someone who came FROM WoW to try "your" game.

Here is a game that came out within a year of FFXI.

Examine the graph closely:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...2LHxJL0cCw5ukw

The reason why the game continues to add players year after year is a topic too exhaustive for this discussion.

Suffice it to say, the graphics engine has been redone on two separate occassions.

In the mean time, FFXI got "Playstation Limitations."

Brilliant.

The reason why EVE online can retain players, is because EVE online is sandbox MMORPG, and there aren't enough sandbox RPG competition on the market. Also by nature, sandbox gameplay are not just "beat the content then quit" kind of game. Showing a graph of a sandbox MMO doesn't really show anything, because FFXI is themepark and it's not even same genre.


Theme park has bigger market, but every title are competing against one million F2P titles coming out every year, hundred and hundred of asian titles pop every year too. Pretty much any new theme park MMO can't retain sub because they're competing against one million other titles AND by the nature of gameplay, players would play through their content and quit.

FFXI is just like any theme park MMO, but with different flavor. It's directly competing against games like WoW/FFXIV, there isn't much you can do if the sub numbers drop.

[Demonjustin]

I don't want anything that reminded me I'm playing a game. This is a roleplaying game(aka life simulator/virtual world), I want game design that would create an illusion that I'm not playing a game.

Yes, as I said, looking at wiki every 2~3 minutes must be very immersive for people, while the !s and markers on your map would be oh so destructive to that immersive experience. If you honestly think there is anything immersive about the fact that the grand overwhelming majority of players will always turn to wiki just to find out where to go, then your sense of immersion in games is laughable. An immersive game keeps you playing it, keeps you enthralled and focused on it rather than forcing you out of it, any game that gives you so little direction that you must leave the game and look elsewhere for information on what to do is not an immersive game but rather the exact opposite, its a game constantly reminding you that is just what it is, a game, because it constantly pulls you from the experience just to look up what comes next in your line of tasks you have to do that the game simply did not explain.

Every MMO would die at one point of time, new player friendly or not, no MMO can retain player forever. What's your point?

I suppose since the game can not live forever and it will die eventually no matter what we do or say, we may as well not even try to improve the experience for new players trying to come to the game and enjoy it, rather, we should just leave it as it is even if it dies sooner rather than later as a result. That doesn't sound stupid at all.

There are specific aspects I truly enjoy in FFXI, I don't want to see it go away, not just for my own taste, but maybe out there there's someone else also enjoy the same thing, wanting to start FFXI as a new player, looking for same experience I had that no longer exists. If another player wants to play WoW, which is the better solution? Turn FFXI into WoW to please them, or tell them to play WoW so FFXI can stay FFXI, and potential new players that want to play real FFXI can still get a chance?

What if you are someone like me? Someone who has no care for WoW or its gameplay style yet likes the FFXI combat, yet at the same time hates the poor effort/reward, time sinks, and overall vague attitude of FFXI and the majority of its quests, missions, and overall content, but likes some quality of life aspects that games like WoW have that I find make a game not only more accessible, but more enjoyable. What if someone like me wants a middle ground? Are we simply screwed and left with either option A or option B, neither of which we will truly be satisfied with?

As I said before, changes are fine, as long as FFXI is still FFXI, that doesn't mean every changes are necessary good decision. And that doesn't make whoever defending for FFXI direction are stubborn/hating new players/elitist/wanting others to suffer either.

This is a truly meaningless thing to say, changes are ok, but FFXI has to say FFXI, which literally has no meaning to anyone but you because only you are determining what you think makes FFXI unique and great. So saying this is really can mean nothing to me, because you see, to me FFXI is what it is because of the community, the friends I have, the combat, the Final Fantasy name, and its story, none of which in any way would be affected detrimentally via changes to the quest system, certain quests or routes of obtaining certain items such as Mythics, or making this game more accessible to newer or returning players by making it more understandable and much less wiki-reliant. In fact, I would see a much greater benefit from it, I have had friends in the past either quit, or never even start with the game due to the amount of things that must be done in order to reach a level where they would find the game actually enjoyable.

For a few instances, my friend CJ who got me into FFXI used to play more than I ever did, he had an awesome time on the game, but when he got a job that tied down his time he was unable to play as much and thus, fell behind, due to the high time requirement everything had at the time he simply quit after a bit. Nowadays CJ has expressed some want to return, or that he would not mind returning, but the fact that he always had to look things up constantly on wiki, that everything is still so time taking, and that everyone is so far ahead, acts as nothing more than a deterrent from his return, after all, the first month of his coming back would be spent doing nothing more than relearning that which he has forgotten and trying to reintegrate himself into the content.

We can argue all day what makes FFXI what it is, different from most games, but in the end thats all you and I will ever argue about it seems, a matter of what things actually are, because we see things massively different. From what I understand it seems as though I see this as a game meant for enjoyment, while you see it as a second life, I see Mythics taking a month of constant work to make as a long term goal, you see 3 months of near constant work a long term goal and anything less would be removing said long term goals, I see a quest !, marker, or menu system as beneficial and a way to remove the need to have wiki up at all times, you find it as something that destroys what would be an immersive experience. In the end, the world you live in and the FFXI you play seems vastly different to my own.

I don't want others to "suffer" when they play a game, if they feel like they're "suffering" for fame/LB/quests/gobbie bag/walk, my suggestion is to go away. However, if dev turn FFXI into something else by removing everything, those who enjoy doing hard work in another world won't have many choice left on the market. Now that's real suffering for those wanted hardcore gameplay. Like how I was sad that I no longer get to enjoy real EQ.

In that respect someone like myself must also be suffering in the same way but right now rather than in a hypothetical scenario since as I explained this game does not meet what expectations I have for a game, and is in no way perfect, while many changes I want go against your views on what makes FFXI what it is, and I can find no game that caters to what I am looking for in a game exactly, the best 2 options seem to be this, and WoW, and as a result I go with the lesser of 2 evils which is this. So if it is suffering to be without the ability to find a game that meets exactly what you are looking for, I am already there, and if it is suffering to play a game, try to enjoy it, but know that it isn't what you truly want, while also having no way to change it to be more similar to what you do want, then I am experiencing that as well.

[detlef]

Yes, as I said, looking at wiki every 2~3 minutes must be very immersive for people, while the !s and markers on your map would be oh so destructive to that immersive experience. If you honestly think there is anything immersive about the fact that the grand overwhelming majority of players will always turn to wiki just to find out where to go, then your sense of immersion in games is laughable. An immersive game keeps you playing it, keeps you enthralled and focused on it rather than forcing you out of it, any game that gives you so little direction that you must leave the game and look elsewhere for information on what to do is not an immersive game but rather the exact opposite, its a game constantly reminding you that is just what it is, a game, because it constantly pulls you from the experience just to look up what comes next in your line of tasks you have to do that the game simply did not explain.

!'s seem like they would be a bitch to program, and I still think that using map markers would be unwieldy and difficult. I love what they've done with the Quality of Life stuff lately, but since there's already a workaround for quest issues (online resources), I'd much rather they focus on other things rather than wait a year or three while they re-jigger every single quest/mission npc in the game.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Suffice it to say, the graphics engine has been redone on two separate occassions.

In the mean time, FFXI got "Playstation Limitations."

I imagine an engine overhaul would be their next long-term project when (read "if") they ever finish the new PC UI.

[Bukota]

I imagine an engine overhaul would be their next long-term project when (read "if") they ever finish the new PC UI.

They would need evidence that their current efforts and investment could really produce a meaningful uptick in subscribership.

It would be so much easier to just slowly fade into obscurity.

It is at least refreshing to see that Matsui appears determined to do anything but that.

It'd be nice to be a fly on the wall.

[Bukota]

The reason why EVE online can retain players, is because EVE online is sandbox MMORPG, and there aren't enough sandbox RPG competition on the market. Also by nature, sandbox gameplay are not just "beat the content then quit" kind of game. Showing a graph of a sandbox MMO doesn't really show anything, because FFXI is themepark and it's not even same genre.


Theme park has bigger market, but every title are competiting against one million F2P titles coming out every year, hundred and hundred of asian titles pop every year too. Pretty much any new theme park MMO can't retain sub because they're competiting against one million other titles AND by the nature of gameplay, players would play through their content and quit.

FFXI is just like any theme park MMO, but with different flavor. It's directly competing against games like WoW/FFXIV, there isn't much you can do if the sub numbers drop.

It's really much more simple than you're making it.

They have a professional, highly skilled, and steadfast development team that keeps the game updated.

They do so by heavily interacting with the community on important decisions. See Council of Stellar Management for how that is properly done.

[Bukota]

It's really much more simple than you're making it.

They have a professional, highly skilled, and steadfast development team that keeps the game updated.

They do so by heavily interacting with the community on important decisions. See Council of Stellar Management for how that is properly done.

They've also never let fear of change get in the way of making their game better.

It has taken courage in the past, and they've made mistakes. But the effort is what counts when you are selling the relationship of service provider, which is what MMOs are really about.

[Camiie]

"Go play WoW" isn't exactly wrong though,

Nine times out of ten, as in Draylo's case, it's analogous to "shut up and go away because I don't want to see opposing opinions." I can't think of a way that can be construed as a kind sentiment.

no game can please everyone, and not every direction change can please everyone either. If some players are unwilling to do all the LB/bag quests or long walk to another city, what else you gonna do? Get rid of all those requirement?

As a dev you have to try and find a happy medium. You're framing it as an all-or-nothing equation, and it's not. Maybe some requirements truly have outlived their usefulness, and really do do more to hinder the game than add to the appeal of it. Really they've been adjusting the game since day one, and rightfully so, and I'm sure some of those were changes you appreciated because they made your experience flow better.

When I was new I enjoyed all the hardwork to get fame/bag/LB quests done, getting lost in the dungeons or long walk to another city, it's a lot of work, but also feel like living in another world instead of kill easy quest mobs in a small game world and reach max lv. I'd feel sad if new player won't be able to experience such aspect again, I mean I'd be sad if I can't experience all those as a new player starting in 2010 or after. I don't even think this game would be that appealing if you have to skip every newb process and jump straight to the endgame.

But they can't experience the same game you did, because the population isn't there to support it. If COP were still the same as it was in 2004 no new players would be able to complete it. The requirements HAD to change or it would be an insurmountable roadblock no matter how dedicated the new player was.

Just because some player may want to jump straight to the endgame, doesn't mean everyone want the same way. I started EQ fairly recently, and I was kinda sad that I can no longer experience how EQ originally was.

Who can determine what's right game direction, who can determine what's wrong? Sub number? Player's happiness? And who has right to claim their happiness is the right direction?

Everyone who pays the bill and plays the game has that right. You, me, the OP, and anyone else you can think of whether you or I agree with their ideas or not. No other answer makes any sense at all.