Dear SE: STOP AVOIDING IT.

[SNK]

imo once Perfect Defense was nerfed, I saw it as a welp, that's the end of SMN being wanted fulltime in most endgame events.

[Jaall]

Other pets jobs are not as adversely affected by the change because their pets have scaled more appropriately over time in comparison to how avatars have scaled.

Therefore, Avatars are too weak in comparison to other pets

Um hate to always bring this back to DRG but I kinda feel I have to - Wyverns do absolutely s**t all! They heal but you need a ton of gear, and I really do mean a ton and what I'm really talking about is elemental breaths. They don't even scratch higher level nm's whereas I've seen SMN doing 3-5k easily on them. Considering an avatar is SMN's main damage dealer that's fine but due to the flaws of DRG that have never been fixed the overall damage done in that minute is usually less than that depending on how well you gear DRG.

It works the other way too, and actually works for every job, if you gear them well and correctly they will always be better, and can actually be better than the great jobs, for example there were many times when my very well geared DRG would walk all over Ukon War's who didn't have the best gear. SMN has had more changes than a few other jobs but like I said DRG has to be the one that is truly neglected by SE just because it very rarely gets an update and when it does it's something that every other job gets at the same time, excluding the ones I mentioned. I think it's safe to say 2 added bonuses in 5+ years, one being a remake of the abilities it had anyway, is a very good definition of "neglect".

I also don't agree with using enmity issues in this because everyone is suffering enmity issue at the moment due to the new system. It's just because SE didn't think out the new formula and tbh it's obviously not in depth enough for a game like FFXI because all they did was change a cap and didn't consider everything else, like pets. Every pet job bar DRG who have no issues cause wyverns pretty much sucked for getting hate before anyway, have been effected by this enmity change so it's not just SMN related.

I also agree that SMN is broken to an extent but nowhere near as much as other jobs and priorities should be the jobs that are completely broken like DRG RDM BLM PUP etc, but they are working on them, well all except DRG for reasons I really can't figure out. But the point's still valid, they do have their priorities right but SoA is slowing the whole fixing process down, so patience is key. Or you could just do what I did, get fed up of waiting and quit, I'm actually really happy I did.

[Karbuncle]

Sorry I'm late~

Also, if it was really so "awful", you wouldn't be playing it

Not true, The Job is awful, But its fun to mess around with now and again.

You want proof of Avatars horrible scaling to 99? I out-damage my avatars, even on T~VT mobs, Simply by Meleeing/Shattersoul. Avatar DMG is out-DD'd by a Melee SMN, their Damage, amongst other things, is pure crap.

Beyond that, defensively, every one of their BP's can be done by a SCH or /SCH with Accession, and SCH or /SCH is more potent, all of Avatar's BP's are ridiculously weak and underpowered. The only decent BP They've gotten since 75 Merits was Shock Squall. The others are just generally terrible and situational at best. I do admit to enjoying Ifrit's Enfire BP Though, it can be useful in some situations.

Outside of PD, the job isn't "Useful", except for the occasional Shock Squall, and thats only used in events they're already invited for for PD, no ones going "We need SHock Squall", they'll invite a BLM for stun if they just needed stun, the only reason people bother with Shock Squall is because when you bring a SMN for PD, their only other use is Shock Squall, so they throw that into the rotation/equation.

Basically, the job is in a sad state of affairs, Its not really "Useful" any more than "Thief" is useful. its a one trick pony who can do other things while its invited for its Pony, but generally, no one cares what you do after you apply Perfect Defense/Treasure hunter. You just... Sit in the party and try to look useful, and nothing you contribute outside of your Pony is really ... useful or matters in any way to the outcome of the battle :\

Doesn't mean I can't have fun Shattersoul'ing shit in the face.

(and calling yourself the "realer summoner").

I swear I went over this with you before, or someone recently lol, its a joke on someone who made a sig before me with "Real Summoner" as their comment, I had Ol'Galka make me a Sig with "Realer Summoner" as a joke, because I Melee on SMN (sometimes) and as a joke, I was saying Meleeing is more Real than BP > Thumb up your a** for 45 seconds.

[Byrth]

The job has serious design issues. SE needs to buff avatar DPS. In my opinion, un-enhanced Avatars should be at least as good as an un-enhanced melee using a respectable level 99 weapon, considering the limited ways players have to enhance their damage. I can't think of any situations where this would cause "balance issues" that weren't seen as acceptable for years, so I don't see any issues that could arise.


To illustrate the problem, Avatars currently have approximately the same D/Delay as a naked level 99 DRK single-wielding a Pick of Trials (the level 71 trial weapon for Decimation). That's atrocious.


Now, if you scaled Avatars up from Pick level to the DPS of a D80/288 delay L99 Magian Axe:
D46/312 delay Pick of Trials version Avatar -> D87/312 delay quasi-melee version Avatar


So, bringing avatars up to the point where their melee DPS is comparable with an unenhanced melee would require a ~90% increase in base damage. This is not a large enough DPS boost to fix the avatar Enmity problems (which will also not be fixed by reduced Avatar command enmity), but it is a step in the right direction. It's also worth noting that the above proposed DPS is still worse than BST pets, as Falcorr has something like D99/230 delay with Triple Attack. His DPS comes in >3x higher than current "Pick of Trials" avatars and >1.5x higher than the proposed "quasi-melee" version). SMN would not be stepping on BST's toes with this adjustment, but it would have an easier time doing Reives and would not really open the door for abuse.

[Alhanelem]

Outside of PD, the job isn't "Useful", except for the occasional Shock Squall, and thats only used in events they're already invited for for PD, no ones going "We need SHock Squall", they'll invite a BLM for stun if they just needed stun, the only reason people bother with Shock Squall is because when you bring a SMN for PD, their only other use is Shock Squall, so they throw that into the rotation/equation.

SMN has about half a dozen other support effects that are useful either because they're not commonly available otherwise or because they're more convenient. I've heard time and time again that Hastega is 'terrible" because WHM can haste a party easily enough, but SMN can haste everyone with a single action (and it's ridiculously powerful in Rieves, besieged and Walk of Echoes where it affects everyone), shiva and leviathan have useful debuffs, ifrit has useful buffs. SMN is used in voidwatch for procs. SMN is most lacking in the offensive department but the way I see it is very useable in a support role.

I swear I went over this with you before, or someone recently lol, its a joke on someone who made a sig before me with "Real Summoner" as their comment, I had Ol'Galka make me a Sig with "Realer Summoner" as a joke, because I Melee on SMN (sometimes) and as a joke, I was saying Meleeing is more Real than BP > Thumb up your a** for 45 seconds.

I understand this- I guess it wasn't obvious in text that I know this already.

It's obvious the avatars have inferior stats and that needs to be addressed. From the beginning, I was only really taking issue with the assertion that SE is "neglecting" the job. They haven't been neglecting it, rather the changes they have made aren't really what most of us have been wishing for. I just don't think an attitude of entitlement is going to help us get what we want. The more analytical stuff is what SE needs.

imo once Perfect Defense was nerfed, I saw it as a welp, that's the end of SMN being wanted fulltime in most endgame events.

Except that didn't really happen. All they did was nerf the duration. If you stack as much skill as possible for it, it's not far off from where it was before. It's still a ridiculously powerful effect. Odin really needs a drastic buff so you can ever justify using it. Right now the only thing it's good for is zapping aggro you don't want to fight. It needs some kind of minimum damage on NMs- The rieve mobs all count as NMs, so Zantetsuken does damage rather than KOs, but the mobs have very low HP so the damage is awful, worse than other 1-hour attacks.

[Kintups]

BUFF MY AUTOMATON

[Mokeil]

SMN has about half a dozen other support effects that are useful either because they're not commonly available otherwise or because they're more convenient. I've heard time and time again that Hastega is 'terrible" because WHM can haste a party easily enough, but SMN can haste everyone with a single action (and it's ridiculously powerful in Rieves, besieged and Walk of Echoes where it affects everyone), shiva and leviathan have useful debuffs, ifrit has useful buffs. SMN is used in voidwatch for procs. SMN is most lacking in the offensive department but the way I see it is very useable in a support role.

Hastega is actually the one Ward that I can flat out say no one can touch us on - and that's mostly because it doesn't stack with Accession. The only other Wards I find myself using regularly are Inferno Howl, Shock Squall, Fleet Wind, Spring Water, and Whispering Wind (mostly because Garuda is already likely to be out). Ifrit's remaining buff, Crimson Howl, does get Honorable Mention, though, as does Healing Ruby II.

I'll grant that there's even a few situational ones that are really nice when they pop up - Earthen Armor is a pretty solid example. I also got some really good use out of Soothing Ruby when my LS was taking on Yilbegan.

But Shiva and Leviathan for debuffs? Sleepga will backfire on a Summoner more often than not. The enmity from the Ward command will almost always end up with your avatar waking up a slept mob at some point. I can't honestly think of a time when Frost Armor came in handy, either. (Also done cheaper via a SCH, RDM/SCH, or BLM/SCH.) I can grant there's some use on Diamond Storm... but most melees will already have their to-hit taken care of via food effects. Likewise I can't think of many times where being able to Slow multiple mobs is handy either - most groups are either kited or slept, with only one mob fought at a time.

That just leaves Tidal Roar. Since there was a recent change to attack and defense, this might see a bit more use. Still, we're paying a lot of MP for the right to make this AoE, when it probably won't be used to hit multiple mobs in many situations.

As for the rest of our wards...

Beyond that, defensively, every one of their BP's can be done by a SCH or /SCH with Accession, and SCH or /SCH is more potent, all of Avatar's BP's are ridiculously weak and underpowered.

The part that Karbuncle didn't mention? Asscession'ed effects almost always cost less than ours, too. So far, I think Sleepga is the only Ward that beats out an Accession'ed Sleep in as far as MP costs go.

That still leaves 16 Wards I haven't mentioned by name so far. And it isn't even a question of them just being really situational. They're just plain out not worth using, often because another job can do it so much better than we can. Even the Wards I listed as favorites can often be matched by other jobs. I'm not saying Summoner needs to be better, but it would be nice if we, too, could match what other jobs bring. Also, while I appreciate the flavor that went into many of Fenrir's and Diabolos' Wards, making them variable mostly just makes them unreliable and not worth the effort to use.

The only place we win out is on duration. In the case out our wards, we end up paying a lot of MP for long durations. However, with the name of the game being "Zerg", duration often means little compared to potency.

[Harle]

I dunno if you guys have read this but:

...In regards to the addition of two new jobs and the increasingly difficult job adjustments, I believe that making adjustments so that regardless of the enemy all jobs are able to deal the same damage or making adjustments so that regardless of the content all jobs can clear it using the same strategy are not fitting adjustments for a game with 22 jobs. Job adjustment is fundamentally content adjustment. For any content, if there are only enemies that are strong against magic, magic based jobs will no doubt take a hit. We will pay even more attention to whether the content that is implemented is open to all jobs and be more thorough in sharing information between the people who are implementing the content. We're aware that there are still some uneven aspects to strengths and weaknesses of certain jobs, but the job lead and those making content adjustments are aware that only modifying the job parameters will not accomplish this task, and will be continuing to make adjustments...

Basically what he's saying is that individual jobs don't matter, and what's important is how you play the content. If you can't do something with a specific job, then don't use that job.

Not saying I agree with that, but that should explain what's going on here, or with other neglected jobs.

[Alhanelem]

But Shiva and Leviathan for debuffs?

tidal roar is acutally pretty handy given the new defense formula. 25% attack down under the new att/def ratio is/should be a measurable reduction in melee damage.

Basically what he's saying is that individual jobs don't matter, and what's important is how you play the content. If you can't do something with a specific job, then don't use that job.

Jobs don't have to be all made the same to all be made useful for a given content. Also, if certain jobs are consistently not wanted for a majority of contents, that I feel IS indicative of a problem.

[Keyln]

Beyond that, defensively, every one of their BP's can be done by a SCH or /SCH with Accession, and SCH or /SCH is more potent, all of Avatar's BP's are ridiculously weak and underpowered. The only decent BP They've gotten since 75 Merits was Shock Squall. The others are just generally terrible and situational at best. I do admit to enjoying Ifrit's Enfire BP Though, it can be useful in some situations.

Hastega.

/char