Staff Relic/Empyreans/Mythics need adjustment

[Tptn937]

Could we get some feedback on why relic/mythic/empyrean staves are so bad? Thanks for your time.

[Alhanelem]

SMN is innately flawed because with the current bp- cap, it will never have the frequency of damage that melees can put out. Also, as a quick aside, FIX AVATAR MELEE DPS! THE CELESTIAL GODS MELEE STRIKES SHOULD BE WEAKER THAN A FREAKIN DAGGER HIT!

There. Someone summarized the real problems of summoner in 2 sentences.

Could we get some feedback on why relic/mythic/empyrean staves are so bad? Thanks for your time.

well as I've mentioned several times already, it's not really that they're bad, its that they don't serve the purpose a lot of people want to serve. the BLM and SCH mythics kind of tried to fufill that and failed, and the SMN one half succeeded (but its usefulness is impeded by inherent flaws in the job)- the relic and empyean staves were simply built for a different purpose than most (but not all) people wanted.

If by 'feedback" you mean "answer from SE", you're not likely to get one, except "we don't really consider them to be bad" or something like that. In fact I think they did say something to that effect once before. Typical vague response (Sorry lol- the cynicism on this forum can be contagious )

[Demon6324236]

They are bad.

[Alhanelem]

They are bad.

No. They're only bad if you want to use them for a purpose other than which they were created for. In which case, you simply don't obtain them. Not useful to you personally != they are bad.

[Jerbob]

I own Hvergelmir and I love it to pieces. It gives me a new way to play SMN, it is a useful tool, and it looks brilliant. I have absolutely no regrets in making it, and it's my only empyrean weapon.

However, whenever I need to do something serious with my linkshell, Hvergelmir gets put away. Aside from the (admittedly useful on occasion) TP wing >> MP conversion technique, Hvergelmir offers me no benefit on anything that packs a punch. I think I have a right to be a bit irked about this - most melee jobs have few reasons to remove their relics, mythics or empyrean weapons for almost any task, whereas my use of my weapon is limited.

I understand and can appreciate that empyrean weapons are designed to be the most potent melee weapons of their type, but is that honestly practical, or indeed fair? The benefits of my Hvergelmir are undeniable, but are they comparable to empyreans for melee jobs? Absolutely not.

Of course there is the factor that magic using jobs often require a greater range of flexibility when it comes to weapons, so making any piece worth full-timing will be difficut, but SE have shown that they're willing to try with mythics - just a shame that they're clueless about any weapon that isn't designed around poking things to death. I agree that a unique and interesting way of using them would be nice as opposed to just a boring "slap on some stats" approach, but they have to be superior to other options consistently, without being difficult to use. There's also the difficulty in weapons such as the staves that are used by BLM and SMN - radically different jobs in execution if not in effect.

I think casting job weapons would benefit from being different "modes", in addition to extra bonuses. One mode would be a straight up melee weapon like we have currently, but allow auto-attacks from maximum casting range. The second mode would be a casting-specific mode that would replenish TP under certain non-melee circumstances, such as nuking with day or weather appropriate spells or converting blood pact damage to TP, but suppress melee TP gain. Giving casting jobs more ways to use a weapon will help keep it relevant in as many scenarios as possible, and ensuring that the modes are separate will prevent multiple techniques from being used simultaneously to potentially broken effect. Modes could be swapped by "using" the weapon from the inventory, essentially swapping it for the new weapon type.

Seeing as everyone else has proposed something concrete in the form of a weapon, I may as well try.

Hvergelmir [Standard]
Staff (All Races)
DMG:87 Delay:390 "Ranged Combat"
MP+80 "Myrkr"
Incl. Avatar:
Accuracy/Magic Accuracy +25
Aftermath: Magic Damage +7
Occasionally deals double damage
Increases "Blood Pact" Damage I
Suppresses Perpetuation Cost
Activate: Alters form [Spellcasting]
lv85 BLM/SMN

Hvergelmir [Spellcasting]
Staff (All Races)
DMG:87 Delay:390 Suppresses TP
MP+80 "Myrkr" "Occult Acumen III"
Copies Avatar TP to Player TP
Incl. Avatar:
Accuracy/Magic Accuracy +25
Aftermath: Magic Damage +7
Occasionally deals double damage
Increases "Blood Pact" Damage I
Suppresses Perpetuation Cost
Activate: Alters form [Standard]
lv85 BLM/SMN

Not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it illustrates the point. The standard staff is your usual for anything you'd normally be fighting, with the option to stand back if things are dangerous. The spellcasting staff is more suited to situations where being permenantly engaged, even at range, would be dangerous or ill-advised, but allows TP to be accumulated through more "magical" means. Maximising the usability of these weapons is essential in making them more equivalent to the melee versions, and one of these modes is almost always going to be appropriate.

By emphasising aftermath with powerful bonuses to relevant effects, as well as the power of the weaponskill itself, the "unique playstyle" aspect is still very much involved with the weapon so it's not just a "stick with stats". A lot of the other bonuses are simply additions to make the weapon more practical to use or replace effects that are lost from other weapons - something melee jobs don't have to worry about.

In conclusion: Casting job empyreans/relics/etc are nice for their intended purpose, but their intended purpose (as a sole purpose) is flawed. They need to have that unique "feel" and way of working while still being practical (and powerful) to use. People playing casting jobs should not need to take off their empyrean weapon when it's not practical to melee - it should be consistently useful, like melee empyrean weapons are. Finding that balance between uniqueness and usability is key and, I think, is something to focus on.

[Alhanelem]

However, whenever I need to do something serious with my linkshell, Hvergelmir gets put away. Aside from the (admittedly useful on occasion) TP wing >> MP conversion technique, Hvergelmir offers me no benefit on anything that packs a punch. I think I have a right to be a bit irked about this - most melee jobs have few reasons to remove their relics, mythics or empyrean weapons for almost any task, whereas my use of my weapon is limited.

Given that summoners typical use has been perfect defense for a long time now- its pretty safe to just go ahead and use it while PD is up.

I kind of like your idea but there are no ranged weapons in the main/sub slots. knowing SE it would probably be a massive undertaking to implement (don't know just hypothesizing).

This seems more suited to a 4th set of superweapons, given SE's lack of history of buffing weapons/armor the community views as underpowered. RNF/GEO will probably not be added to the existing weapons so there will probably be a new set of top tier weapons after the new jobs come out. That's what I would leverage this thread for- sculpting what the next weapons should be rather than making a futile fight to get the current ones changed.

[Jerbob]

I suppose that is, regrettably, more realistic. Perhaps I am just being idealistic, but I feel it's worth saying something just to voice dissatisfaction rather than just leaving things unspoken, which implies acceptance. It's frustrating when there's potential for improvement, and lots of ideas from many different people, but no real understanding from the other side.

Oh well.

[Demon6324236]

Let me say at least 1 is bad then Alhanelem, the BLM Mythic.

Since it came out its been under the HQ staves so far as I know, or very slightly above if at all, in todays FFXI its worthless for all but 1 spell because Chat and ToM Staves exist, both of which are better in their own ways. BLM/SCH gets great use from Chat for the Irid effect on their spells since with /SCH and Obis you can force weathers except for Thunder. Lv99 ToM staves have a massive +35% Magic Damage thanks to Affinity, as well as their -cast time. On Laevateinn you have "Magic Atk. Bonus"+60 Enhances "Elemental Seal" effect, visually amazing, technically shitty, 60MAB does not compare to the affinity bonus, your MAB would have to be fairly low for you to have Lae win, and if thats the case, why do you have a Mythic? The Elemental Seal effect would be good and put it ahead possibly, however its on a 5min timer, and is also your only way to cast Meteor, the only real use for this staff. You said "They're only bad if you want to use them for a purpose other than which they were created for." but Meteor was no where to be found back at 75, not its reason for being made. It was made to be the ultimate nuke staff, because somewhere down the line SE figured that giving a % bonus was worse than a static # based stats. The weapon fails to do exactly what it seems to have been made for, provide you with the best nuking staff around with high damage, and a bonus to a normal JA to make your damage even higher!

Tupsimati really is no different, its supposed to be a great nuking staff that uses Weather to effect enmity so the SCH can nuke harder with less risk of taking hate, again, failed to deliver but even worse because it has no spell at all you would really use this on instead of a ToM staff.

[Alhanelem]

Let me say at least 1 is bad then Alhanelem, the BLM Mythic.

For the most part I agree, but it does have 1 superniche use as the best staff for Meteor.

[Demon6324236]

Right but still not its original reason for being made, as Meteor didn't exist until after level 99 was released even.