Expansion (Seekers of Adoulin) to have PvP content?

[saevel]

The basic mechanics of FFXI are not balanced for PVP at all. The interlocking and supporting nature of the job system makes is so that any attempt at PVP ends up with a select few job (or job combos) rising to the top. Negating enfeebling magic makes the super DD's immediately the best (WAR / DRK / SAM / BLU) for group play. Allowing equip swaps further unbalances things due to SE playing favorites with gear selection and availability.

I'm not against the idea of PVP, but FFXI just isn't designed for it. WoW had to implement an entirely different battle mechanic (resilience) and gear system just to have PVP be balanced. FFXI would have to do the exact same in order to make it even remotely functional. They'd have to go a step further and redesign each job just for PvP to make it balanced or enjoyable.

It seems their "Player vs Monster" is a compromise. Rather then try to redesign the battle engine for PC vs PC game play, they instead allow one PC to control what it usually an AI based boss. This retains the PvE mechanics while also allowing players to fight each other.

[kingfury]

I do not intend to rain on your parade... however, Ballista, when played the way it was meant to be, exemplifies exactly what you're describing.


Wonderful artwork, great idea, cheers

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Thanks for the compliment and feedback ^^/

I'm sure they started with the core concept of what I'm describing in the OP, but then they added the mini-game aspect to it. Ballista is indeed team vs team battle, but in order to be what I'm proposing, it would have to shed just about all the unnecessary elements of what's in it. The entertainment factor IS the PvP itself which breeds strategy all by itself, mini-game excluded.

The reason Street Fighter is still a mainstay in the gaming industry after all these years is mostly due to its "Jump in and Play" game design. There are parameters and rules that govern the game, but when it comes down to "how you play the game" this is what brand new players and veterans alike see:

ROUND 1... FIGHT!

And after that, you just fight! You fight till the other guy can't fight anymore. Simple, clean, and entertaining

Not to say that Ballista is flawed for being laced with extra depth, its just most folks that wish to participate in PvP, literally just want to "fight" another player. Nothing more, nothing less.

Another large factor, is no one gets to sit around and view these battles as a colosseum setting would allow. You and your team are warped away to an independent and isolated zone so no one else can see the action as it unfolds. In my proposal, the idea would be to draw a crowd per each battle so that onlookers could root for their favorites and even place bets on the outcome if they choose. Even if the viewing effect was like that of zoning into the colosseum area and being able to toggle between which player you could follow visually for each onlooker, it would still be awesome.

[Aeonk]

The basic mechanics of FFXI are not balanced for PVP at all. The interlocking and supporting nature of the job system makes is so that any attempt at PVP ends up with a select few job (or job combos) rising to the top. Negating enfeebling magic makes the super DD's immediately the best (WAR / DRK / SAM / BLU) for group play. Allowing equip swaps further unbalances things due to SE playing favorites with gear selection and availability.

I'm not against the idea of PVP, but FFXI just isn't designed for it. WoW had to implement an entirely different battle mechanic (resilience) and gear system just to have PVP be balanced. FFXI would have to do the exact same in order to make it even remotely functional. They'd have to go a step further and redesign each job just for PvP to make it balanced or enjoyable.

It seems their "Player vs Monster" is a compromise. Rather then try to redesign the battle engine for PC vs PC game play, they instead allow one PC to control what it usually an AI based boss. This retains the PvE mechanics while also allowing players to fight each other.

You're thinking in terms of PvE. yea maybe those 4 jobs are going to win a parse. I can also see those 4 jobs dying to a PLD.

Also, in group play it's the "weaker jobs" that suddenly become very powerful, because their weaknesses are being compensated for by the composition of the group and/or the fact that they're not the focus of attention 100% of the time. Take a look at NIN. In a 1v1, Diaga spam can turn a NIN into a pretty squishy target. Put them in an official match where the enemies don't have you targetted 24/7, and they become a hit and run master. Most people won't even bother attacking a NIN, just because they didn't sub RDM for Diaga spam, and as such would have to beat them down the long, very difficult way.

DRG's jumps are devastating for someone trying to escape with a sliver of HP left, RNG is always solid damage provided they have a frontline DD wiping shadows/third eye. and COR can deal very heavy damage with Wildfire to pretty much everyone, provided they have time to prepare/build TP and aren't getting their face smashed in.

Every job can do well in ballista. Just takes a little skill, outside the box thinking, and most importantly: cooperation. Personally I'd be very eager to see an official match with max participants where both the teams operated with the level of coordination/strategy of an endgame LS. Would be absolutely amazing to watch.

[kingfury]

The basic mechanics of FFXI are not balanced for PVP at all. The interlocking and supporting nature of the job system makes is so that any attempt at PVP ends up with a select few job (or job combos) rising to the top. Negating enfeebling magic makes the super DD's immediately the best (WAR / DRK / SAM / BLU) for group play. Allowing equip swaps further unbalances things due to SE playing favorites with gear selection and availability.

I'm not against the idea of PVP, but FFXI just isn't designed for it. WoW had to implement an entirely different battle mechanic (resilience) and gear system just to have PVP be balanced. FFXI would have to do the exact same in order to make it even remotely functional. They'd have to go a step further and redesign each job just for PvP to make it balanced or enjoyable.

It seems their "Player vs Monster" is a compromise. Rather then try to redesign the battle engine for PC vs PC game play, they instead allow one PC to control what it usually an AI based boss. This retains the PvE mechanics while also allowing players to fight each other.

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Thanks for your feedback and opinion /

I Agree 100% that FFXI's basic battle system as it stands is not balanced at all for PvP. There would indeed have to be a "forced balancing" type of system to make this idea even viable, but it is very possible to create such a balance for this game. Even with the balanced system, however, I still suggested choices for the player so they could be the ones ultimately determining which system they would like to battle under.

What I suggested in the OP was this:
"The 3 optional versions of the Game Modes: Standard, Official, and Enhanced"

"Standard"-
In Standard versions of play, Players will enter into battle with no special battle benefits or enhancements other than a special instant reraise effect (instant Reraise upon being K.O.'d, and all HP/MP is restored with no weakness). All damage calculation for Melee, Ranged, and Magic attacks present throughout Vana'diel would function as normal in this mode. This is the barest/rawest of all version options. Players choosing this version option should expect quick and fast pace battles, with a myriad of different battle experience levels from opponents. The infamous "One-Shot Kill" will be possible in this mode, so bring you're A game when attempting Game Modes with this version option selected.

"Official"-
In Official versions of play, Players will enter into battle with special battle benefits (+10 to all stats, +10 HP/MP regen/refresh, and +2 regain) and enhancements to HP/MP(All Players will have a set maximum amount of 6k HP at the start of each match, and a set maximum amount of 2k MP), increased durability to both physical and magical dmg(-25%Dmg taken), and a special instant reraise effect (instant Reraise upon being K.O.'d, and all HP/MP is restored with with possible temporary weakness, 1min**, depending on if the Game Mode is set to Tag Team). The benefits from this version option reflect the A.M.A.N.'s wish to "fairly" balance combat between all combatants. This is the most balanced of all game mode version options. Players choosing this version option should expect matches to consist of combatants with well planned battle strategies and extensive battle experience. No Player in this version option will need to fear defeat from "One-Shot kills". Skillchains accompanied with magic bursts, on the other hand, is another thing all together. Plan ahead before entering into a battle with this version option selected.

"Enhanced"-
In Enhanced versions of play, Players will enter into battle with all the benefits/enhancements from the "Official" version option of play (stat buffs,max HP/MP, dmg resistance, etc.), plus the allowed use of special temporary battle items/medicenes, and the use of "Gym Medals" (regimen enhancing key items acquired in other Gym Programs) and a special instant reraise effect (instant Reraise upon being K.O.'d, and all HP/MP is restored with with possible temporary weakness, ** 1min**, depending on if the Game Mode is set to Tag Team). This mode allows Players that have acquired powerful Gym Medals to enjoy them with free reign, and to mercilessly unleash their benefits upon other Players. Players choosing this version option should expect matches to consist of exploding damage all around them! With the use of temp. items and Medals, there's no telling what kind of battle you're in for. Acquiring multiple powerful Gym Medals will set players apart in this version option. Be readily prepared!

With the "Official game mode" being the most balanced of the 3 options, there could be an even footing with enough preparation by the player. Now would that mean a WHM would be able to go toe to toe with a WAR on the same Damage dealing terms? Perhaps not exactly, no, but they wouldn't be crushed in the 1st few hits which would allow some time to devise a strategy.

I too agree that the "Play as a Monster" system could be a breath of fresh air in the entertainment department, but I still think it's a bit of a let down to not be able to fight a Player character just as ferociously as I do against a monster, gear swapping and all. Gear swapping is apart of how the Devs designed this games battle system, so why not let us utilize what we utilize as we normally play the game? It's how we as combatants can charged confidently into multiple battle situations throughout Vana'diel and truly have the tools and gear to deal with most all of it.

[saevel]

@kf,

Totally understand where your coming from, I just don't see SE putting the necessary time and resources it requires into it. There are still so many things broke in the game right now that they haven't even bothered to fix.

What I mean by basic battle mechanics are things like attack vs defense, magic, PDT / MDT and gear swaps. Removing gear swaps nerfs the magic based users, hence the melee jobs spiking up to the top. People talk about strategy but honestly when we only have ~1600 HP it would be trivial for any DD to whack that down. That forces everyone to wear PDT and it just kinda snowballs from there.

Currently the top three for one on one are RDM, PLD and BLU. It's due to their survivability and vast array for cheap moves (RDM and BLU). In order to "balance" against that you'd have to reduce the effectiveness of those moves, yet if you do that those jobs suddenly become crap compared to the melee's. I mentioned the above melees for group play, they would just gang up on one opponent and immediately kill them, then move on to another, while the enemy team does the same to them. Bringing a healer wouldn't work as they would be the first person to immediately die and would leave one team with 3 melee's vs 4 melees.

It just gets stupid as each scenario is played out, players will always seek the fastest and most "efficient" way to win not the "way it was meant to be played". FFXI just has too many holes in it.

[Sparthos]

The success or failure of monster PvP will come down to how deep the gameplay is, how fair combinations are and what the incentive are to keep individuals at it.

[Damane]

gearswaping is penaltied in Ballista because you could otherwise change every sec your gear and nooone would be able to target you (thus even landing an attack). Thats the idea behind the penalty. If you want to make gearswaps possible in your pvp you would need to solve that problem, otherwise you wont be able to use gearswaps without makeing the pvp impossible to play.

[Mathieu]

The problem isn't that FFXI is kind of imbalanced. It is imbalanced completely past the point that those sorts of measures actually are going to be viable ways of fixing the problems. Every class would basically need separate stats and abilities to make true PvP viable.

The problem with FFXI's current system is that the relative offense, defense, and support capabilities against targets with player level stats is completely disproportionate. It isn't just a matter of adjusting X ability by 4.5% or increasing the recast on Y ability by 50%. When it comes to a PvP setting, some classes are always going to bring far, far more to the table than others. "Working together" doesn't fix all the problems.

Not a lot of people want to see content implemented that inherently is only going to allow specific jobs to be competitive. Most people would rather see content designed to keep as many jobs as possible at least vaguely competitive. This is also an almost exclusively PvE game that has been out for ten years. No PvP content is going to attract that many players and most PvP focused players never bothered with this game in the first place.

[Ronin]

I can honestly say I don't care one iota of PvP and believe it the sovereign of small minded people trying to prove how much 'better' they are than everyone else... But it was worth reading this thread for your artwork alone.

You're the small minded one. You're assuming all PVPers think alike. You know who else groups groups of people up and think they're all the same? RACISTS!

I love WPVP. I'm not competitive, nor do I have the quickest reflexes or beat people in PVP to show them how much better I am than them. I love PVP for the strategy, teamwork, comradery, epic battles, and the amazing experiences. I find it all fun.

For example..
This one Alliance guy in WoW was attacking a Horde town full of low level people so I did what I always did and fought him to protect the low levels. We fought up and down the huge area 1 versus 1 through both faction camps inside and outside buildings with low levels of each side jumping in to help occasionally before being swatted.
We rarely died since he was a Discipline Priest and I was a Warlock, we were evenly matched and geared fighting for over five hours non stop and we both used some great strategy and battle tactics against each other. In the end it wasn't about proving who was better than the other.

He was part of a notorious WPVP Alliance guild that spread rumors on the Horde side about their guild being racist just to build hatred from the other faction to attract WPVP. It worked.

That's just one of my PVP experiences, I could talk about the time I fought off 6 PVP geared Alliance attacking a town all by my self on a fresh 80 Warlock. It was like my very own 7 Samurai battle. Or any of my many many fun WPVP experiences.

Those were typical days on Veture Co.

And responding to the OP, I don't think FFXI can handle PVP. It's fighting mechanics are just too unbalanced and slow.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Usualy I berate people for asking for PvP in a game that's designed around coop play, but you left in the mithra nut shot, so I can't be mad at you KF. lol