New enhancing spell for RDM to promote party support.

[Byrth]

I get RDM/NIN being about 40~50% behind DNC/WAR under these conditions:
* Assumed equal attack/accuracy and no JA usage or Spell Casting time (in balance, massively favorable to Red Mage especially considering the DNC has Berserk/Aggressor, Acc Bonus job traits, etc.)
* Assumed no enspells.
* Both jobs get Haste cast on them.
* RDM was using Almace/DA Sword, DNC was using Twashtar/STR Dagger
* RDM had Gain-STR and Temper with max potencies.
* Assumed permanent AM1 for the RDM. Permanent AM3 make it closer to 40% behind overall.

RDM WSs slightly harder, but DNC WSs more than twice as often. If you assume constant 30-damage enspells and AM3, RDM pulls close to parity in DPS but still doesn't come close to touching the TP output of Dancer.

I am going to put this again here in bold so it is not missed. I have made some incredibly favorable assumptions in RDM's favor and still get them lagging behind an equally geared Dancer by a significant amount. The job is not very good at meleeing, but with an incredibly simple change to its job-specific magic it could be useful as a supporting mage. I wish I could say the same for Dancer, but I can't.

[saevel]

I get RDM/NIN being about 40~50% behind DNC/WAR under these conditions:
* Assumed equal attack/accuracy and no JA usage or Spell Casting time (in balance, massively favorable to Red Mage especially considering the DNC has Berserk/Aggressor, Acc Bonus job traits, etc.)
* Assumed no enspells.
* Both jobs get Haste cast on them.
* RDM was using Almace/DA Sword, DNC was using Twashtar/STR Dagger
* RDM had Gain-STR and Temper with max potencies.
* Assumed permanent AM1 for the RDM. Permanent AM3 make it closer to 40% behind overall.

RDM WSs slightly harder, but DNC WSs more than twice as often. If you assume constant 30-damage enspells and AM3, RDM pulls close to parity in DPS but still doesn't come close to touching the TP output of Dancer.

I am going to put this again here in bold so it is not missed. I have made some incredibly favorable assumptions in RDM's favor and still get them lagging behind an equally geared Dancer by a significant amount. The job is not very good at meleeing, but with an incredibly simple change to its job-specific magic it could be useful as a supporting mage. I wish I could say the same for Dancer, but I can't.

Except you gimped the hell out of the RDM.

Gain-DEX > Gain-STR
30 Damage enspells, period.
Almace / STR Sword, unless your fighting really weak targets

And your spamming Saber Dance to get that Tp gain, Saber Dance at 5/5 will average 22.5% DA. The DA from saber dance does not stack with the +10 from WAR. It also locks out your waltzes but we'll assume that's ok.

Where exactly are you getting this TP from. NFR is 3min and is 5 free FM. RF can turn those 5FM's into 112TP for a quick WS. Three steps required to get 5FM for a RF, so your turning 30TP into 112TP which your immediately burning into a WS and need to start again building that 30TP. 15s per step for 45s to get enough for a full RF. Though doing at 4FM's would give you +91 TP, should let you WS sooner and only require 20 to begin with.

That's a whole lot of JA spam, at 120 delay each.

No doubt DNC can build rapid amounts of TP, but their not going to do 50% more damage from spamming all those JA's. Not unless your removing the JA delay entirely or playing with other numbers.
And this is all ignoring all those other abilities.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I had Dnc 30% ahead strictly speaking, not accounting for self SC/Reverse. That was assuming enspells, but not spamming steps. Nin was 25% or so receiving no buffs but haste. and yes I used Almace/Str/enspells (Nin's alot easier to figure).

Ninja almost 30% ahead with Boost-Agi at +20. 90 kannagi/kamome versus fodder. Blade: Hi 4% ahead of 90 Almace near perfect ws set (assuming no accuracy issues and Dia3 on Rdm, Dia 2 for Nin).

EDIT: Why would you not have haste unless solo with no mage..?

[saevel]

Ahh now I see, your adding all the Haste up, which makes sense, except if your giving the DNC Haste spell then the RDM gets that fully merited Haste Samba effect, disable enspells for that. Brings things much more in line.

If we're going to start going down this road then you need to share out all the buffs, can't have the RDM soloing while the DNC (or NIN, BLU, THF) is getting outside assistance. If you have a pocket WHM casting haste on you while casting Dia II on your mobs, then I'll take a pocket BRD casting double march's on me. If you demand a BRD and a WHM then I'll take a BRD and a DNC.

When you are comparing two jobs hitting a brick wall with infinite HP then you compare them as they are. RDM's buffs are as natural as Berserk / Aggressor / Saber Dance / Haste Samba are to those respective jobs. BLU can cast haste on itself, but DNC, THF, NIN, WAR, SAM, none of them can self buff with magic.

Now I know the next argument is going to be about "realism" since you'd never want to go into any fight without 24/7 rotating BRDs and buffs. This entire comparison isn't realistic, no RDM is going to only melee, neither is a BLU nor a DNC for that matter. This is just measuring the raw melee capabilities of a RDM vs various other jobs. Which means you compare it to those jobs without outside buffs. Or else you give the RDM corresponding buffs (you take a WHM and I'll take the BRD). Of course you'll just take a BRD/WHM doing double march's, haste and dia II, but now we're getting a tad bit power gamy.

[Neisan_Quetz]

EDIT: And what exactly is that going to prove? You've already stated you have pocket whm as do others, not that it's even necessary for fodder. Pocket brd also provides haste dia and marches. You'll still be behind, so not sure why that matters.

Added in Samba and x2 +3 March, Rdm 17% behind Dnc.


EDIT2: The hell, I don't even consider brd buffs usually because I personally don't have them. Not adding in haste is bad and you should feel bad if you don't bring it, don't blame your bad configuration for that.

[saevel]

Ok using Bryth's technique I get DNC over RDM by 6.6% when both are considered separately and spamming RCB's. Using a slightly more reasonable (for what you'd be using these jobs for) Bison Steak I get 4.8% in DNC's favor. Now everyone should understand why the aforementioned posters insist on using RCB's. Their +23% for a cap of 150 @ 652. None of those jobs can hit 652 without zerk, so while RDM can bring the NM's defense down and provide a boost bigger then that of zerg, it can never get the full benefit of that food. The more common and affordable YCB / Bison Steak on the other hand caps 90@500 and is reachable by all the jobs.

Giving the DNC outside haste raise's it's damage output 24.7%. And that's how their getting 30%.

And since we were being a bit silly today I used a 99 Excal / STR Sword RDM spamming Req with 500 strength enspell / Temper / Gain-STR and self haste. And all without disabling my ability to toss our Cure IV's at will.

-=edit=-

Did some looking around, if your using an Excal with Req then the DA sword will perform better then the STR one on fodder and things where you have high attack. The gain was 3.6%. On anything bigger then you are the STR sword pulls ahead due to how valuable attack becomes.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Bison and YCB give less attack even with RCB being uncapped...

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Just a thought, but since SE Idea is having RDM being a self buffing mage that keeps all it's best stuff to itself. Does any one have any idea for a self only buff for RDM that would not be consider imbalance? I only ask this because it seems like as a group were all going against the grain of what SE envision the job as.

To start us off I'll offer an old idea with a new twist???

Haste II: Increase both att speed and movement rate. Scale's with enhancing magic.

Edit: if not that maybe a spell that is the reverse of gravity that increases evasion and movement rate.

As I said in a previous thread: Faith and Brave, both spells in FF games and perfect as a self-buff for RDM, OP as party targetable.

[Byrth]

You can't actually have both Haste Samba and enspells.

I assumed the Dancer would get Haste because they benefit from it more than the Red Mage (both in terms of DPS and overall damage), so if the Red Mage was restricted to only casting it once, he should still cast it on the Dancer.

[tyrantsyn]

As I said in a previous thread: Faith and Brave, both spells in FF games and perfect as a self-buff for RDM, OP as party targetable.

I know I've seen the suggested before but can't seem to find your's. Can you post a link? I'd like to try and get this thread back on topic with something that actual has to do with enhancing magic.