Battle Balance Adjustment: TP Gained through Use of a Weaponskill

[Mirabelle]

So ... DDs ability's are a COR ...
Yeah you know, SAM's get those too, that JA doesn't interfere with them.

All SE did was prevent a JA from becoming less then useless.

Sure save a JA that wasn't necessary and kill a JA on a job that's had trouble for years maintaining a foothold in Vanadiel. While a powerful job, COR was always second fiddle to BRD due to the lack of Haste and second fiddle to other DD due to ammo options and B ranked weapons. And on top of it the job costs gil.

How much gil did SAM spend on any of their JA? How much did COR spend on Miser's roll?

Save TP nerf kills the roll unless SE starts adding in a ton of Save TP gear to stack with it. You can argue it will continue in VWNM, but given DD don't know if they will be with a COR they won't be rocking Discipline anymore as its a useless atmacite without a COR for any two hander.

[saevel]

Sure save a JA that wasn't necessary and kill a JA on a job that's had trouble for years maintaining a foothold in Vanadiel. While a powerful job, COR was always second fiddle to BRD due to the lack of Haste and second fiddle to other DD due to ammo options and B ranked weapons. And on top of it the job costs gil.

How much gil did SAM spend on any of their JA? How much did COR spend on Miser's roll?

Save TP nerf kills the roll unless SE starts adding in a ton of Save TP gear to stack with it. You can argue it will continue in VWNM, but given DD don't know if they will be with a COR they won't be rocking Discipline anymore as its a useless atmacite without a COR for any two hander.

WTF are you smoking?

COR was always wanting for the express purpose that it's buffs stack with BRD's. Ever since it was introduced you put DD x 3 + BRD + COR + Healer in your DD pt. If your were really good you'd have the healer in a different party and put a fourth DD in that slot. March x 2 + Chaos + either the Sam or War roll was the zerg setup of choice. This was years before Abyssea was ever introduced.

[Mirabelle]

WTF are you smoking?

COR was always wanting for the express purpose that it's buffs stack with BRD's. Ever since it was introduced you put DD x 3 + BRD + COR + Healer in your DD pt. If your were really good you'd have the healer in a different party and put a fourth DD in that slot. March x 2 + Chaos + either the Sam or War roll was the zerg setup of choice. This was years before Abyssea was ever introduced.

That was COR's one niche and it was years ago. But since meripo was not the only endgame activity, COR was generally not overly welcome over BRD in most other endgame events. Given that fact and the fact it cost serious Gil to level, there was never more than 15 COR's on the server even in the meripo heyday. That's what I mean by a foothold. Plenty of folks tell me they never ever had a COR in their party for any event up until the VW craze.

[Jomen]

I won't go back and address every person that commented with my reference but I will address most of the concerns although I think Saevel has already done this.

Why do I think that Sam was not favored with this boost. NOTHING CHANGED. Basically, the original form of hagakure did not have the save tp limitations that are being implemented so I have already been getting back 40 tp per ws (tachi: shoha). With the new system in place, my save tp on a ja will be nerfed just like miser's roll. Now, why change hagakure to something significant again and keep the nerf on miser's? I think a poster said it best, "the save tp ja comes from cors". Other dds have different strengths they're trying to get into. I know drgs, wars, and drks with 5 hit builds too that don't need miser's rolls to do damage every few seconds. This is part of learning to play your job better. Sams are used to getting tp back at an alarming rate and good sams at the moment can do a 5 hit haste capped build if they know where to look. The lolsams that don't are usually not getting 40 tp back from hagakure or even 18 from wses. That said, again, SAM is about TP. Cor is about buffing. Why nerf a job who is based in tp so that you can please a group of cors who have waaaay more buffs to pick from. Thank god they didn't nerf the regain roll eh?

As for me "missing the point". In my original post I addressed this. But this isn't a direct attack against corsairs either. They didn't say "we're nerfing miser's roll" they said they're adjusting the save tp trait. This also affects equipment (sam equipment, dnc equipment, etc) and many other aspects of the game. I still don't believe that they should hurt corsair's utility as a job but maybe they have plans coming down the road later. Also, let me point something out, miser's roll is relatively new!! Before vw, it wasn't even used and people were beating lots of mega bosses without it. You don't need super save tp to win things. Easy button doesn't solve everything. Remember how to use strategy and smart playing and you'll be able to pwn like back in the 75 cap days when miser's roll was just a DD's wet dream.

[Mirabelle]

Cor is about buffing. Why nerf a job who is based in tp so that you can please a group of cors who have waaaay more buffs to pick from. Thank god they didn't nerf the regain roll eh?

The whole idea of progressing to level 99 for COR would presumably mean getting new rolls that add further power to the job. If we are just going to be using old 75 level rolls, why bother advancing the job at all? Tactician's/Miser's are the only two of the whole batch of 76-99 rolls that gets any use from most COR's. With the nerf, it will only be Tactician's. That's one roll in 700k gil of new rolls. Did BRD not get upgraded songs across all their lines? Are they using only level 75 songs these days?

COR is a buffing job that had found a niche in VW due to a powerful roll. That's being nerfed to a level where the roll becomes totally useless. I've put up with useless rolls on COR, but never had one that was useful become useless with a change in formula. We're not talking a minor tweak to balance it. We are talking making it totally useless.

All COR's are asking is to turn Save TP into a capped trait. 50TP returned makes it still powerful and doesn't make it totally useless. And it nerfs it to a level where all here pretty much agree its reasonable as far as balance.

[SpankWustler]

Thank god they didn't nerf the regain roll eh?

I would have preferred a heavy-handed change to regain to the heavy-handed change to Save TP, actually. Save TP interacts more nicely with delay reduction and other things which can actually render regain useless if folks are engaged. Regain is actually found outside of Miser's Roll, Hagakure, and one Atmacite so it would also give the Development Bros a more gratifying sensation to make Regain somehow worse.

I'm not sure why you want to interpret all these posts as people saying Hagakure shouldn't be adjusted. A few folks definitely are, for some weird reason, but I don't think people venting some bile via one-liners on the internet matters that much.

It's more like watching a plumber fix the toilet in one bathroom and leave the other as a broken poo-swamp. It's nice to have that one bathroom fixed, because climbing onto the neighbors' roof at 4 AM and pooping down their chimney was a tiring thing and this metaphor is getting weird, but it makes a bro question what that plumber is thinking.

When this change was announced, stuff about Conserve TP was mentioned when Conserve TP doesn't stack with Save TP in a viable way. A lot of people complained and the response was basically "You see me adjustin', you be hatin'...I shall continue adjustin' normally." without any elaboration on why a hard cap wasn't considered instead or on how Conserve TP works or doesn't work alongside Save TP.

At this point, I'd just like to know what led Development Bros to make the change exactly the way they made it. Then I can write a novella about hallucinated insects, Fransisco can stick Tanaka's head on top of Emperor Palpatine or maybe a penguin, everybody can wear the numbers or letters off their Chaos Roll macros, and the world can turn onward.

[Greatguardian]

WTF are you smoking?

COR was always wanting for the express purpose that it's buffs stack with BRD's. Ever since it was introduced you put DD x 3 + BRD + COR + Healer in your DD pt. If your were really good you'd have the healer in a different party and put a fourth DD in that slot. March x 2 + Chaos + either the Sam or War roll was the zerg setup of choice. This was years before Abyssea was ever introduced.

I think you mean BRD+DNC+Healer + DDx3. COR's buffs never touched BRD or DNC, and going from 3 DDs to 2 + Cor meant the Cor's buffs would have to add over 50% Damage to each of the remaining DDs to be worthwhile. That never happened, and thus COR was fairly useless at 75. Also: Curaga was/is king in zergs. Putting the healer in an off party was not an elite move, but a dumb one that is really only suited for merit parties.

COR was only ever choice on things like lv75-80 Absolute Virtue where the added attack was a big deal and the COR could just drop from the party after rolling to get the Bard in (thereby not taking up a slot at all).

[saevel]

If you do this adjustment on Save TP... and increase the SAM JA... Miser's Roll needs also a Buffs !

I was really having fun in Voidwatch as COR those days... Now, I'm a little unconfident for the future. :/

Miser's Roll Buffs please ! >_<

I'm totally for buffing Miser's roll if their going to change how Save TP works.

[Kristal]

Did you coast all the way to 766 posts with that kinda nonsense?

Hardly, I'm not Mellowy... To be fair, I'm pretty much across the board with posts, so there's bound to be some nonsense ones. Keep in mind though, that opinions don't have to be nonsense just because they don't match yours. And if someone can show me my line of reasoning is wrong, I will acknowledge that as well.

In this case though, I was targetting the general response to the upcoming nerf. There is a lot of gnashing of teeth, and very little thought behind it. Some people actually have worthwhile arguments to offer, but they get lost in a sea of vitriolic comments.

[Mirabelle]

I think you mean BRD+DNC+Healer + DDx3. COR's buffs never touched BRD or DNC, and going from 3 DDs to 2 + Cor meant the Cor's buffs would have to add over 50% Damage to each of the remaining DDs to be worthwhile. That never happened, and thus COR was fairly useless at 75. Also: Curaga was/is king in zergs. Putting the healer in an off party was not an elite move, but a dumb one that is really only suited for merit parties.

COR was only ever choice on things like lv75-80 Absolute Virtue where the added attack was a big deal and the COR could just drop from the party after rolling to get the Bard in (thereby not taking up a slot at all).

I think only a small population knew that BRD + DNC was better than BRD + COR due to the fact that haste remains king. Of course most Meripos I was involved with were happy to just get one buffing job.


Edit (to keep on topic): And devs, if you read this, listen to what every COR and non-COR has said about Save TP: put in a cap!