Job Manifesto discussion RE: Summoner

[Dallas]

Do not question the wonder that is Mala's love for spirits. I have felt the joy of watching another SMN melee and reaped the rewards of sharing that experience. Mala loves alone.

Mala's love is a forbidden love, illegal in the 4 contiguous empires. We do not want to know why there are singed edges on the shower curtain. We just don't.

[Tannlore]

Dallas.....

Is this the first non-flame post you've made?

I'm touched! <3

Edit: No.. really I am

[Dallas]

Pfft, I'm just in a better mood because the melee SMN have started arriving. Better late than never. I had to crack some skulls solo for months.

[Tannlore]

Bah, smn melee have always been here, we're just not as hardcore you. I Still play the same way I always have, I only traded spirit taker in for Myrky... 'course hitting things for stupid damage now is nice

[Dallas]

I was referring to this forum. There are at least 200 Hvergelmirs out there, and I bet they are all in the hands of SMN. The more people talk positively about the weapon, the more people will get the weapon. The more people understand the strengths and weaknesses of melee SMN, the better feedback SE will get.

Read the OP. This is exactly what some people don't want to happen.

[Korpg]

Poor Dallas, he doesn't know that most of those Hvergelmirs out there were made because the person in question already had all of their other emps for all of their other jobs. And only used as town pieces.

And most of them are level 85, because they know not to waste getting a level 90 on.

[Malamasala]

What IS your fascination with spirits? They are considerably weaker than avatars, cost more to upkeep, are practically uncontrollable, were never meant to be a mainstay of the job, were only implemented to stand in for when we didn't have our avatars and then be replaced by them once we did get them. I don't get it....

It is content added and then ignored. What is everyones fascination with Dynamis overhaul? Why wasn't it ok to just say it was old content and not to be done past level 75? Why did people insist that Sky needed updates since nobody did it? It was only meant to last until level 75. Why do people want ZNM improved? Why do people want an update to campaign? Why do people want an update to Nyzul isle?

There is really no other argument than that some of us liked the content, but disliked how it was pushed away by other content. SE has for some reason listened to people on updating zones, but they don't seem to bother about jobs. I'd rather pick spirit updates than sky/dynamis/salvage/nyzul/campaign/voidwatch updates.

I also see exactly what good spirits would allow us to do.

1) Heal on our MAIN job. Doesn't it bother anyone else that you are using subjob cures one tier lower to heal? That is like MNK subbing PUP to get H2H skill of a PUP. It is outrageous and no sane person would let this slide.

2) Regenerate MP while DDing. Just assault the spirit do nukes without spending a single MP, then every 5 min siphon to increase the MP. Of course there are alternatives, but the best option is not available to us.

3) Deal more damage than an avatar. But because it is weak to silence/stun/sleep, it would still be inferior to avatars on HNM, but for normal monsters they would be your go-to pet.

Improved spirits would give you:
- Better ability to cover healing
- Added strategy and skill to master the job
- Variety in play
- Better damage output on simple monsters for farming or questing or soloing exp
- Triggers

Spirits is like going from 2D to 3D. You get a whole additional dimension. Avatar updates is more like going from 2D to HD 2D. It is better, but not really different. And it is a really great comparison, because most people hate on 3D because they do not want it, while they love HD. Still, the fact is that you gain more from spirit updates, it just might not be the gain you were looking for.

[SpankWustler]

I also see exactly what good spirits would allow us to do.

1) Heal on our MAIN job. Doesn't it bother anyone else that you are using subjob cures one tier lower to heal? That is like MNK subbing PUP to get H2H skill of a PUP. It is outrageous and no sane person would let this slide.

One dark and dreary day while the sun is hiding it's eyes behind a dark cloud because it can't bear to watch, some guy at SE will give light spirits the same AI as a Soulsoother automatons. You will still be disappointed, just in a different and more full-bodied and colorful way. Like watching a videotape of your own birth in a movie theater instead of on your parents' 23 inch TV.

[Korpg]

What is everyones fascination with Dynamis overhaul?

Because a lot of people did it for justifiable rewards (relics and armor).

Why wasn't it ok to just say it was old content and not to be done past level 75?

Because some relic armor and weapons are still the best for that slot/job. Apoc still rocks and is better than the mythic and emp versions. So does Mandau (for THF) and GK relic. TH hands still is great, RDM hat is great for enfeebling and idle, BLM legs for day-of-the-week nuking, WHM legs if you don't have 5/5 Emp +2, and so on. Dynamis is still great because the rewards justify the effort placed into it. Spirits outside of Elemental Siphon doesn't, and never had.

Why did people insist that Sky needed updates since nobody did it?

See above.

It was only meant to last until level 75.

You are comparing content to a minor ability. That is like comparing Meditate to Abyssea.

Why do people want ZNM improved?

See dynamis answer.

Why do people want an update to campaign?

Because the only way to have allied notes is by Campaign, in case you haven't realized that. It is also a fun way to kill stuff for justifiable rewards. Besieged is the same thing.

Why do people want an update to Nyzul isle?

Because it is content. It was great, and it is required for mystics. Salvage and Assaults are the same way.

There is really no other argument than that some of us liked the content, but disliked how it was pushed away by other content. SE has for some reason listened to people on updating zones, but they don't seem to bother about jobs. I'd rather pick spirit updates than sky/dynamis/salvage/nyzul/campaign/voidwatch updates.

Square Enix did not state that if you buy Abyssea, you can never do CoP or Salvage ever again. You are confusing things into extremes again.

I also see exactly what good spirits would allow us to do.

1) Heal on our MAIN job. Doesn't it bother anyone else that you are using subjob cures one tier lower to heal? That is like MNK subbing PUP to get H2H skill of a PUP. It is outrageous and no sane person would let this slide.

So, you want to be better than a SCH and RDM when it comes to healing now? Instead of the hierarchy of healing jobs to go from WHM, SCH, RDM, BLU, SMN/PUP you want it to become WHM, SMN, SCH, RDM, BLU, PUP instead? SMN is not a healing job, was never really designed to be a main or sub healer, and it was players who made it into a healer job because they saw the amount of MP a SMN has, the ability to cure with /WHM, and can, if geared right, have Carby out to help cure also. But it was never designed to be a healer, and there was never any "healing abilities" added on for SMN, except for Carbuncle, but only major Erase, nothing more.

2) Regenerate MP while DDing. Just assault the spirit do nukes without spending a single MP, then every 5 min siphon to increase the MP. Of course there are alternatives, but the best option is not available to us.

Spirits have a very limited number of nukes, and can choose from either a small debuff, a small buff, or a major nuke. We have no control over it, and that is what SE wanted when they made SMN and even their lack of improvement on spirits implied that they don't want spirits to take over the job of a PUP (limited), RDM, SCH, or BLM. The lack of cost for the spirit to cast a nuke is the only benefit we have, but that is because we have no control over the spirit. If we were given control, we would have to pay for the spells the spirit uses, with the addition of perp cost of the spirit.

3) Deal more damage than an avatar. But because it is weak to silence/stun/sleep, it would still be inferior to avatars on HNM, but for normal monsters they would be your go-to pet.

Spirits were never designed to be better or equal to avatars. If they were, then why bother get the avatars when you could just buy the scroll of a spirit instead?

Spirits is like going from 2D to 3D. You get a whole additional dimension. Avatar updates is more like going from 2D to HD 2D. It is better, but not really different. And it is a really great comparison, because most people hate on 3D because they do not want it, while they love HD. Still, the fact is that you gain more from spirit updates, it just might not be the gain you were looking for.

Spirit updates are more like going from 2D to 2D with better graphics. Add more spells for the spirits, and you are still left with the major problems of spirits period. Lack of control, lack of defense, higher perp cost, and overall inability to choose what is cast are still going to be there. But that is how spirits were made to be, placeholders for the real reason people choose SMN; Avatars.

[Razushu]

1) Heal on our MAIN job. Doesn't it bother anyone else that you are using subjob cures one tier lower to heal? That is like MNK subbing PUP to get H2H skill of a PUP. It is outrageous and no sane person would let this slide.

2) Regenerate MP while DDing. Just assault the spirit do nukes without spending a single MP, then every 5 min siphon to increase the MP. Of course there are alternatives, but the best option is not available to us.

3) Deal more damage than an avatar. But because it is weak to silence/stun/sleep, it would still be inferior to avatars on HNM, but for normal monsters they would be your go-to pet.

Improved spirits would give you:
- Better ability to cover healing
- Added strategy and skill to master the job
- Variety in play
- Better damage output on simple monsters for farming or questing or soloing exp
- Triggers

Spirits is like going from 2D to 3D. You get a whole additional dimension. Avatar updates is more like going from 2D to HD 2D. It is better, but not really different. And it is a really great comparison, because most people hate on 3D because they do not want it, while they love HD. Still, the fact is that you gain more from spirit updates, it just might not be the gain you were looking for.

1) Our ability to heal is fine as is Caby+SMN/WHM makes a fine healer outside abyssea already. Why does it matter that we use a subjob that enables us to cure. By this logic SE should just give us native healing magic instead of a spirit buff, as this would give us main job only healing capabilities without wasting time on spirits.

2) We already do that with release/spirit/siphon/Avatar, takes 15 seconds TOPS, and all we lose is Avatar melee time, which has 0.00XX% effect on our DPS

3) They're not designed to deal more damage than an Avatar, they never were. Avatar's are already Superior to spirits at DD, why would SE bother making Spirits better than Avatars for killing exp/farming mobs, when Avatars kill these just fine anyway.

All improvements to spirits gives SMN is... SMNs that want to play with spirits get a new toy. That's it nothing more, unless they decide to go against everything they've done and said about SMN and start making spirits stronger than Avatars. An adjustment to spirits is more like watching The Wizard of Oz at the part where it goes from B&W->Colour on a 14in portable placed under a Cinema screen where everyone else is watching Avatar in 3D, and thinking it's the most amazing thing ever to happen on a screen.

Honestly I get that you like spirits, I don't understand why, but I get it, and honestly if the job wasn't in such bad need of a real update I would probably be happily bandying around spirit improvement ideas with you. That's not the case though our Avatar's melee like a naked H2H BLM, our BP delay is hurting us, and we're using DD tools from 15+ levels ago, this is not the description of a job that can afford to have time wasted on it tinkering with tools designed for 70+ levels ago. Maybe spirits aren't fine as they are, but they're certainly not involved in anyway with the things that holding us back.