Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

[Yugl]

I can agree to this. But then we have to look at what THF was used for by the Community. I'd say people invited THF for 2 Reasons. 1) to DD (back in old school? SATA + Viper bite better than all, Magic burst freeze? yes), 2) Trick Attack. So we have 2 base roles. DD, and Enmity.

A few issues with your argument:
1. If we agree with SE's original plan for THF, I don't see how it's a problem to maintain that track
2. People invited people for TH purposes, why is that not listed?
3. How else could THF have been played?
4. Remember that we didn't have knowledge of THF's TH mechanics, so part of the reason for melee focus was the belief that it enhanced TH
5. The RDM community believed they would be on track as melee RDM, should we then give into their demands as well because they "believed this is how SE would develop them"?
6. THF's abilities were actually more prominent as a sub rather than as a main, which means SE should focus on features of THF as a sub right?

This just goes back to THF being mislead as they leveled earlier in the game, Today its more obvious (Except maybe to people who don't research all the time), But back then when you leveled THF you expected to hit 75 DD'ing and helping Enmity with Trick Attack, In reality you were a TH whore.

That really makes no sense. TH is irrelevant for XP mobs, but THFs need XP nonetheless. What else were they going to do in PTs? If they expected enmity control, then how is the community's original expectation different from SE's plans? The truth is that even if one considered how underdeveloped the TH system was back then, the playerbase made arguments for THF DD, not in the name of damage, but in the name of TH. Remember the beliefs about TH approximating the damage done by THF? Remember the beliefs about THF needing to get the last hit? Even though these were false, they were beliefs and TH bolstering strategies upstarted by the community.

I don't deny the amazingness of our one unique Specialty, I just want a Specialty that lasts more than 1 Melee hit.

Then make plans to develop the TH system further (And SE has already started that). For example, make TH apply to caskets and so forth. I've seen very few "ideas for SE" that compliment this notion.

No i don't really remember SE modeling them off EverQuest... Either Way you bring up another point I would like THF to expand on. Give us more ways to hinder/hurt a mob, Even if its through increases other players. Like i listed a while back, a JA that increases Debuff potency on a mob, Or increases Damage dealt to the target for a small window, Stuff that gives us a use for the other 10 minutes of a fight.

EQ was successful prior to WoW and given the similarity in FFXI's and EQ grinding system, the connection has been made. Quite frankly, the role of additional debuffs should go to other melee whom neither have TH nor will compete with WAR. It's unreasonable to demand that WAR, BST, DRK, SAM, DRG, RNG, MNK, BLU, and NIN DD at the same capacity. Some of them will ultimately have to default for suboptimal positions, and in doing so, will need features that make them worth inviting. Siphoning RNG into the TH realm may not be a bad idea, but it will not work for the rest of melees. For those that will be difficult to buff to the realm of top DD, it is more practical to have them function as supportive melees, such that we have...

Healers
Mage Support (BRD/COR)
Primary DD
Secondary DD (Enhances overall, rather than personal, damage at the cost of suboptimal damage output)
Treasure hunter classes (Allow THF to remain leagues ahead of RNG to compensate for damage differences)
Nukers

This is where our Opinions Differ. No other job in the game was completely rejected for 1 piece of armor. If your WAR didn't have Dusk+1, You'd still invite him to DD. Point was THF was completely judged based on those 2 single pieces of Armor, no other job in the game was judged this harshly.

and its all because THF was useless (in the communities eyes) outside of TH. I'm pointing out the Extremes of it. Of course you would check most people gear first, But if someone was a little less than perfect they'd be acceptable.

I have a feeling I know where you'll take this from here but i'll stop and respond to that when the time comes... :X

People rejected players for not having ACC rings way back. People rejected others for not having Turban during the ToAU era. The present system undermines your point further since TH gear is incredibly easy to obtain now with Dynamis revisions and, as Byrth mentions, the difference between TH gear is somewhat irrelevant since you can easily upgrade from lesser tier TH. By this, I mean that even though a TH5 will trump TH4 at reaching TH12, they'll probably both end up at that value due to the difficulty of gaining further increases. This also means that it's more important for THF to melee.

Still, WHM may only be good for curing (which is bull itself, They have Pro/Shell V at higher potency, and Barspells at higher potency/unique buff to them), but they cure the entire fight. They can even go as far as haste cycles if a RDM isn't covering it. they have something to contribute the entire fight.

Same goes for WAR, they DD the entire fight, They're actively participating int he event in a meaningful way that isn't generally regarded as "Worthless damage that feeds too much TP".

And without acceptance of soft cap TH, you have the duty of pumping TH from start to finish. Shell/Prot V is the same for WHM as it is for RDM and SCH (AoE version is what's different). Any sub WHM (And soon sub RDM) member can toss out hastes. None of this response means anything with regard to the central point. If TH becomes irrelevant, then so does THF. However, this is true for the aforementioned classes. If healing is irrelevant, then WHM is is too. If melee damage is irrelevant (Think manaburns), then so is WAR. That's the price of specialization, but as you can see by the examples, specialization is much more significant in this game.

I Don't belittle Treasure hunter in any way, I like the Ability, I acknowledge its the only thing keeping our job relevant, I just want other reasons for our relevance. Thats not asking too much

Ok, lets try this with other classes then.

WHM acknowledges its superior healing capabilities and general enhancements, but would like more than that.
WAR acknowledges its superior DD capabilities, but would like more than that.

Edit: And to be frank you'd have almost no chance at Ambusher's hose without Blue proc, If you had to pick a THF+WHM, or a MNK+WHM to get Ambusher's Hose, what would you chose? The MNK, because on Blunt he can do every Blue proc, which ups the drop rate of Ambusher's hose far far more significantly.

And guess how many Ambusher's Hoses that person wants to get after obtaining theirs? Compare to how many buds a person starting X Empyrean items wants after obtaining 1-2. We've been over the "boxes and proc!! undermine TH" dilemma. Why not ask for TH to become relevant in those instances? Or even better, an ability to floor drops at the benefit of greater melee action? It really makes no sense how one can acknowledge these facts and decide that improving TH is not the way to go. It's like RDM asking for melee buffs the moment their role is eclipsed/becomes irrelevant.

What I find interesting is how several THFs talk about proc!! undermining the role of THF in abyssea, but don't make that association with DDs. Brews and Atmas undermine melee equipment and MP management (Hello SCH!), but no mention of that. Why's that?