Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

[Greatguardian]

We shouldn't have to not get drops just because we chose not to play the bandwagon drops. Hence why the proc system is a pile of bullshiat. Instead of horrible drop rates with no proc and extremely high drop rates with proc, just get rid of the damn procs, have drop rates in the middle, and everyone can get their stuff and have fun doing it.

Okay no, stop. Just stop. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say:

"I do not care about being efficient, I care about playing the way I want."

And then say:

"It's not fair that my less efficient way of doing things isn't as efficient as the most efficient way of doing things. The way I want to play should be within reasonable proximity to the best way to play, no matter how inefficient the former is."

You want to get efficient drops? Play efficiently.

You want to eschew drops (You don't care about those, right?), so that you can play the significantly less efficient way that you want to? Play your way and don't get as many drops.

Just don't come crying that your inefficient petburn isn't getting as much done as the War/Nin/Whm supergroups.

[Alhanelem]

Okay no, stop. Just stop. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say:

You absolutely can. Proc systemc auses basically every fight to be beaten the exact same way. This is a problem.

You absoultely should be able to play the job you want and still be efficient. The fact that this is not possible means that there are major imbalances in the system. You can kill efficiently (time wise) and sitll get shiat for drops because of the proc system. If we found a good way to kill something with this that and the other job, why should we not be rewarded for it the same as anyone else?

This is specifically the abyssea proc system, by the way. The other proc systems have somewhat addressed this problem because any job can proc.

Who the hell said I don't care about drops? Everyone wants drops. The problem is we have a system that does not allow everyone to participate and also get drops. If you're not a WAR/MNK/NIN and you're killing anything in abssea, SE has basically said "fark you, you have to play one of these jobs or you don't get shiat, no matter how strong you are as a job/player."

The most amusing thing is you people arguing for the proc system are the ones playing the jobs that benefit most from its existence.

Just don't come crying that your inefficient petburn isn't getting as much done as the War/Nin/Whm supergroups.

1) pet burns don't have to be inefficient
2) this isn't just about pet burns, it's about all 14 of the jobs not needed for proc
3) No one job should be so drastically better than another, and this is an indicator of balance problems
4) Everyone should be able to participate in any given event to a level that makes them accepted.
5) You shouldn't get drastically less drops just because you didn't level MNK/SAM/NIN. THF and treasure hunter is fine, because that isn't drastic and it is relevant to the job. Any other disparity in drop rates depending on job needs to be removed from the game on the quick fast.

[omegadevil85]

In all honesty the proc system is awesome but as always it's flawed. like most things in the game i get the idea of trying something new to appease the "Loners" in the game bsts that dont' have any friends or pups that can't get a party invite, black mages that had to solo pets from 40-75 etc... i honestly love voidwatch 1. it doesn't discriminate, you either get something nice or you don't. and 2. if you don't have all jobs with all possible means of doing everything you're fucked and in voidwatch since you're limited to 18 jobs and there's 20 jobs well you'll always be fucked. it's absolutely brilliant. but coming back to the topic at hand! even if you don't have a bandwagon job you should level one... plain and simple. sure it's crap that you're being forced to do something just to get something but nothing goes free... i had to level warrior! i hate and despise warrior but i knew that it had to be done and now i've got all kinds of gear and all kinds of crap... for my mule... cuz that's what i leveled warrior on but the point is i got it =D

[Greatguardian]

Christ, it's like trying to tell a guy that he can't expect to instant-win a SF tournament using only Dan.

You are absolutely not entitled to being equivalent or within close proximity to the Best by virtue of paying for the game.

WAR/NIN/WHM/MNK/whatever supergroups are not *Just* killing the monster. They are staggering it, attacking its weak points, and then destroying it. You are merely killing it. Therein lies the difference. If you don't care about striking the monster's weak points even though it gives you a reward for doing so, then just kill it. You can still get drops. Just not as much as the group that takes the strategic victory as well as the win.

This "I'm entitled to be the best even if I'm doing things with absolutely no regard to efficiency and actual ability" attitude is bollocks. It's spoiled at best.

[Alhanelem]

WAR/NIN/WHM/MNK/whatever supergroups are not *Just* killing the monster. They are staggering it, attacking its weak points, and then destroying it.

All jobs should be able to do these things. Other proc systems (e.g. dynamis) are minimally dependent on jobs.

You are absolutely not entitled to being equivalent

I absolutely am. Every job should be viable and able accepted by any group no matter how elite they are [SIZE=5](Assuming that they are capable players using their job to their fullest)[/SIZE]. If they cannot be, then they need to be adjusted until they are.

No one said ANYTHING about ability. If you suck, of course you're not entitled to stuff. But if you are intelligent and throughly skilled, you should be able to play efficiently with a PLD SAM SMN BRD DRK as you could with a MNK NIN DNC WAR WHM BLM or whatever you can think of. If you are wielding your job to its fullest, it should be competitive with the other jobs. If summoner is vastly weaker to every other job, then it needs to be improved. this is a simple fact. We are not ignoring efficiency, we still want to be as efficient as we reasonably can.

You simply are a player of the best jobs and don't want anyone else to be touch you, or have that taken away from you. That's all there is to it.

attitude is bollocks. It's spoiled at best.

It's not bollocks, nor is it spoiled. Why is it spoiled of me to expect there to be some semblance of balance between the 20 jobs?

(god dang spellchecker...)

TL;DR: you basically have said: "If you want to play a sucky job and suck, that's your choice. I'll be over here with the awesome crowd, being awesome." Typical elitist nonsense. You are selfish and are determined to protect that.

[Alhanelem]

Just not as much as the group that takes the strategic victory as well as the win.

Seperate post for this. How is using pets to kill the monster, or using rangers or using any other job that kills something a different way not "strategic?" How is using the same three jobs to win everything with the most drops more strategic? Pet burning is one strategy. using the various abilities of job B, C, D, and E is another strategy. Doing this and that with jobs X, Y, and Z is another strategy. And why should we get less drops because we used a different set of jobs from you? You do not deserve more drops just because you're playing the currently-most-popular-jobs.

Eilitists will always defend their ability to be elitists and call anyone who wants more but isn't an elitist "selfish."

[Razushu]

Christ, it's like trying to tell a guy that he can't expect to instant-win a SF tournament using only Dan.

You are absolutely not entitled to being equivalent or within close proximity to the Best by virtue of paying for the game.

WAR/NIN/WHM/MNK/whatever supergroups are not *Just* killing the monster. They are staggering it, attacking its weak points, and then destroying it. You are merely killing it. Therein lies the difference. If you don't care about striking the monster's weak points even though it gives you a reward for doing so, then just kill it. You can still get drops. Just not as much as the group that takes the strategic victory as well as the win.

This "I'm entitled to be the best even if I'm doing things with absolutely no regard to efficiency and actual ability" attitude is bollocks. It's spoiled at best.

It's not a matter of entitlement. Although yes in a well designed game all jobs should be close to one another in terms of percieved usefullness."They are staggering it, attacking its weak points, and then destroying it" you say this like it's down to the players skill and not the poorly laid out proc system. There's 20 jobs not 6, so yes all jobs should equally able to proc. If not you have the poorly designed system. If it was just SMN, PUP, BST and DRG able to proc with pet attacks and these alone are the only procs. the forums would be overloaded with "I leveled X job that was top tier, and now I have to level something I don't want to to get good drops"

[Alhanelem]

It's not a matter of entitlement. Although yes in a well designed game all jobs should be close to one another in terms of percieved usefullness."They are staggering it, attacking its weak points, and then destroying it" you say this like it's down to the players skill and not the poorly laid out proc system. There's 20 jobs not 6, so yes all jobs should equally able to proc. If not you have the poorly designed system. If it was just SMN, PUP, BST and DRG able to proc with pet attacks alone the forums would be overloaded with "I leveled X job that was top tier, and now I have to level something I don't want to to get good drops"

Thank you for saying that more eloquently than I could ever hope to.

[Greatguardian]

Because ability only refers to players, right?

No. Jobs have ability levels too. Some have more abilities than others. This is not some democracy where everyone gets to be special little snowflakes that are all equal and good in their own special ways.

Byrth already made a great point about the attitude SE has shown over the years. It's not like one group of jobs has always been best for everything. But, every event carries with it a set of jobs that are the best for it, and a set of jobs that have absolutely no reason being there.

Why is this doable? Because we're allowed to bloody change our jobs whenever we want. If Summoner sucks in Abyssea, nothing is stopping you or anyone else from changing to WAR and doing Abyssea on that. If WAR sucks in a BCNM, nothing is stopping them from switching to RDM or BLM and doing said BCNM on that.

Tout your idealism all you want. That's not how the game works. That's not how the game has ever worked. That's not how the game will likely ever work in the future. And no, this has nothing to do with me, or my jobs. I don't need to push Summoner out of the way to stay on top. I'd welcome the company. If every job became capable of doing everything? As im-bloody-possible as that concept is, I'd welcome it because it means I'd be able to dick around on whatever I want and still get shit done.

Some people have the absolute worst attitudes when it comes to "BG/Elite" players, I swear. "You are only saying Summoner sucks because you want to stay on top and blah blah want to be exclusive". I hear it all the time and it's never made a lick of sense. I would not give a shit if everyone had 10 Emp weapons and was flat out better than I was.

What bugs me is this self-righteous belief that everyone has the innate right to be the very best, like no one ever was, without actually doing things in the strategically best manner. I mean, even a bunch of pet-burns can gear themselves up. They'd just take significantly more time because they're doing things less efficiently, and they'd be less potent when geared up because frankly the jobs suck. Hybrid jobs are always going to be half-assed at any one particular skill, and no one really needs multiple skillsets in a single party slot because we know how to optimize our parties with specialists.

Deal with the consequences of being inefficient or buckle up and do things more efficiently.

Edit: There are 20 jobs in this game that fill 3-4 basic roles. They will never, ever be equal to one another in a given situation. The challenge is figuring out what combinations are best for the situation at hand, and then using that to your advantage. SE has never, ever advocated trying to fit a square peg in a round hole and doing every single event in the game on a single job. You are just going to have to live with that.

[Alhanelem]

No. Jobs have ability levels too. Some have more abilities than others.

Jobs don't have to all be the same to have balanced power. Every job, being played to its absolute fullest, should be able to be reasonably efficient (in a group setting- FFXI is designed around group play.)

If This job or that job is not accepted because it's Inefficient or for whatever reason, it should be adjusted such that said problem is rectified. To argue otherwise is basically saying "No, my job is the top tier job and I want it to stay top tier and all you losers who play other jobs to keep sucking!"

What bugs me is this self-righteous belief that everyone has the innate right to be the very best,

I do NOT have any kind of "self-righteous belief" that I have an innate right to be the best AS A PLAYER. I DO, however feel I have an innate right for the jobs that I play to all be balanced enough such that if I am actually capable of being the very best, that I am able to be.

There is NO good reason in the UNIVERSE why the jobs can't be more balanced as jobs. Player skill is a completely totally seperate topic, is not being argued here, and has nothing to do with the problem at hand.

Deal with the consequences of being inefficient or buckle up and do things more efficiently.

Again, if I am not capable of being more efficient, not because of my ability as a player but because of a flaw or problem with a given job, then that flaw or problem that is hindering efficiency needs to be fixed. This is not being self-righteous. This is asking for job balance, something that anyone who plays the game should be expecting from it.

No other MMO i've played has 2/3rds of its classes deemed "inefficient" or worthless, and any class that is found to be such is generally adjusted in the future to address those problems.