Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

[Cream_Soda]

I'll take a good summoner over a good white mage, unless the handful of things the white mage has that the summoner doesn't are absolutely critical to success.

That cure 5 sure is pretty useful, I hear.

[Razushu]

and I'm being very generous saying that less than half of the smns I've pt'd with weren't absolute crap

I'd take a good whm over a good smn and I'd take a crap whm over a crap smn.

No ones asking you to take a SMN over a WHM unless you already have a WHM and are looking for a support role job because we do we at that role

[Greatguardian]

Like a working Shell, non-gimped barspells, and Cures greater than 4?

Generally, yes. Those are fairly staple spells.

[Alhanelem]

That cure 5 sure is pretty useful, I hear.

Sure it is. But is it always needed? No.

[Cream_Soda]

No ones asking you to take a SMN over a WHM unless you already have a WHM and are looking for a support role job because we do we at that role

and there are other jobs that fill that support role slot much better than you do is my point.

Am I saying summoner is useless, no. Am I saying it's generally one of the back burner "I couldn't find anything else so I'll take you" type of jobs, yes I am.

Like a working Shell, non-gimped barspells, and Cures greater than 4?

Generally, yes. Those are fairly staple spells.

Light spirit shell works great bro

[Greatguardian]

Hey, man. If you're willing to main heal on Summoner and feel that you can do so effectively, you're welcome to it. It's not like you're missing much over Red Mage aside from Shell V, which really is a bit of a big deal. But good luck trying to convey the message that Summoner is perfectly capable of main healing, because the rest of the SMN community will likely roast you before you even get a chance to try.

[Cream_Soda]

Sure it is. But is it always needed? No.

and that's a situation we have someone like the blm, who is there to proc !! just sub whm and take care of it himself, so even then the smn isn't needed or a good choice to put in the pt slot.

[Alhanelem]

and that's a situation we have someone like the blm, who is there to proc !! just sub whm and take care of it himself, so even then the smn isn't needed or a good choice to put in the pt slot.

Bullshiat. Asking a black mage to cure is like (insert something horrible you could ask someone to do.)

Besides, you're going to have a BLM anyway. You're not giving up a party slot to them.

Plus, if they have no concern other than procing, They don't even need to be in the main party.

[Byrth]

Summoner is invaluable in the roles that I listed earlier. It's plenty useful, it's just not always useful. I'd say it has more strategic uses at the moment than Ranger, Scholar, and Puppetmaster. Probably several other jobs as well.

Also, I reverted some verbatim page lifts from BGwiki. He at least bothered to re-write the other NM strategies he copied, so I let him keep those.

[Razushu]

and there are other jobs that fill that support role slot much better than you do is my point.

Am I saying summoner is useless, no. Am I saying it's generally one of the back burner "I couldn't find anything else so I'll take you" type of jobs, yes I am.


Light spirit shell works great bro

on other jobs vs SMN
will they buff:

better? yes I have said so myself
So much better that you'll notice a slowdown in the party? most likely not(if the SMN cares about the group)