whats the best subjob for DD at 90?

[Xilk]

Here's why steps are useful for dancer and not so much for anyone else: DNC main gets 2 moves per step, 3 with presto. Thus, with merits, they put in 20 tp and get out 75. As a subjob, you get 1 step, so you have to put in 50 to get 60, not worth it.

Unless you want the debuffs on the mob also.

[Kitkat]

I don't get why some are saying you need a whm or a rdm+blm+blu/rdm to do AOE farming. With correct atma and decent to good nuke set I'm perfectly capable of doing AOE with a rdm+blu/rdm and find it easier than when I do it as rdm+war/sam since I'm not absolutely killing my defense to do so. Frogs, chigoe, crabs, and lizard I'm capable of dispatching with AOE for TE. Generally I'll have to only use CW+Thermal, but also have Leaf storm set as a back up unless something is resistant to wind. Dream Flower casts fast enough as /rdm to not need a blm.

I generally put up Stoneskin and aquaveil, have the rdm phalanx II, and swap into -pdt set to gather about 10~15mobs. Pop BA, swap back into nuke set and use CW and thermal (generally all I need) and Aquaveil lasts long enough to do this to avoid interrupts. Should it not, Dream flower and reapply Aquaviel before continuing. In the rare instance that doesn't do it I usually use Leaf storm to finish off or just WoR to finish off. Typically I use Lion, Ultimate, MM for this.

Generally due to cuor buffs (and dom enhances buffs) my Str is still in the 120~140 range thus my physical spells aren't hurt much at all doing this. Once I've gained enough TE I'll slip back to DD atma and rearrange my spells. As this only takes 5min of my time to switch it back up after getting 200~300min I have no issues doing so. Occasionally if I'm farming TE for the alliance while the rest are killing NM I won't even change atma back if there are nasty AOE, instead I'll move some spells around and do DMG from back line seeing as grudge does around 2400 (so long as nm isn't resistant to dark), regurg is up in the 1300~1700 range, CW and TP both have a range of 12 which is out of smaller AOE range and still does good dmg even to NM.

Part I love about /rdm the most is obviously the Fast cast, but I also have isador, homam legs, and a fast cast +3 neck I can put on for using certain yellow !! spells that otherwise take a long time to get off. With +2 body/hands cast off/recast is capped in this situation.

Only time I use /nin is if I don't have to do TE burns and I absolutely need that 100% shadow block (and obviously for the superior DoT melee). A blu doing melee can be just as destructive as a blu doing magical dmg or spamming spells, given you have at least RR to use.

Due to how much hate blu can generate without /war, I've never seen a reason to use the sub for aggressor, zer, warcry. Also I've had yet a need to have defender at my disposal, but to each their own. Whatever fits the playstyle of the individual determines the sub they will primarily use.

[Prothscar]

/NIN is your best pure DD sub. Let's break this down.

-Dual wield III. You gain the ability to equip two swords with a 35% delay reduction which gives the following boons:
*A second hit, adding whatever DoT you garner from that sword.
*The stats of the second weapon (in most cases)
*A 30% overall decrease in attack delay and a more minor increase in TP gain.
*A bonus hit on your weaponskill from your offhand, which also adds fTP to that weaponskill.

-Shadow images. Occultation and Stoneskin are nice and dandy, (I won't even mention phalanx, the bonus is negligible in any non-whisker burn scenario and should not be a primary factor in deciding what sub job you should use), however they are unreliable. The only reason these defensive spells should really be considered for a DD sub to begin with is that I guarantee to you that more damage output will be achieved while you're alive rather than eating dirt or waiting on weakness.

No other sub job really compares. /RDM offers nothing for your damage, it offers only defensive additions that are on par with or less useful than utsusemi to begin with. If you're planning on whisker burning all night, /RDM is surely the way to go. However, if you plan on doing anything real such as NMs, then I would suggest using a subjob that lends itself to DD and tanking, (if you aren't pulling hate on BLU you're doing it wrong). It's more than possible to solo whisker burn as /NIN, you just have to do smaller pulls.

[Zagen]

No other sub job really compares. /RDM offers nothing for your damage, it offers only defensive additions that are on par with or less useful than utsusemi to begin with. If you're planning on whisker burning all night, /RDM is surely the way to go. However, if you plan on doing anything real such as NMs, then I would suggest using a subjob that lends itself to DD and tanking, (if you aren't pulling hate on BLU you're doing it wrong). It's more than possible to solo whisker burn as /NIN, you just have to do smaller pulls.

1) Faster cast and recast on spells would beg to differ on "offers nothing for your damage". Unless you have Almace most of your damage comes from spells and the faster you can cast them means the more damage you'll do.

2) I've soloed a lot of of seal NMs straight tanking as BLU/RDM, Head Butt is awesome and a lot of NMs still don't resist it. #1 applies here too.

3) /RDM offers MAB2 which pushes your Saguine Blade damage.

4) If you aren't running out of MP even with MM on you're doing something wrong, Convert is always nice to have to refill that MP.

5) Shell2 + Barspell come in handy considering a lot of NMs spam aga/ja spells. Being able to nearly cap Stoneskin with just /RDM is nice too when eating agas/jas (could probably cap but I don't have a MND build anymore).

Don't get me wrong Utsusemi has it's place but /RDM isn't as bad as you're making it sound. As usual stuff is situational

Heck I even have reasons for /SCH but I'm about the only BLU I know willing to play healer role.

[Prothscar]

1) Faster cast and recast on spells would beg to differ on "offers nothing for your damage". Unless you have Almace most of your damage comes from spells and the faster you can cast them means the more damage you'll do.

2) I've soloed a lot of of seal NMs straight tanking as BLU/RDM, Head Butt is awesome and a lot of NMs still don't resist it. #1 applies here too.

3) /RDM offers MAB2 which pushes your Saguine Blade damage.

4) If you aren't running out of MP even with MM on you're doing something wrong, Convert is always nice to have to refill that MP.

5) Shell2 + Barspell come in handy considering a lot of NMs spam aga/ja spells. Being able to nearly cap Stoneskin with just /RDM is nice too when eating agas/jas (could probably cap but I don't have a MND build anymore).

Don't get me wrong Utsusemi has it's place but /RDM isn't as bad as you're making it sound. As usual stuff is situational

Heck I even have reasons for /SCH but I'm about the only BLU I know willing to play healer role.

1) Can get nearly the same casting speed /NIN as you can /RDM. 10% difference. Recast is a negligible 2%.

2) Head Butt's recast is 10 seconds, the difference between Fast Cast and Fast Cast II is 2%. 0.2 seconds off of the recast timer. /RDM lends nothing else to Head Butt.

3) The difference between MAB and MABII is 4 magic attack bonus. Can already get that while /NIN if you're really in desperate need for extra damage on Sanguine Blade.

4) Convert is unnecessary. No fight lasts long enough for you to run completely out of MP, and if you're solo why are you converting while fighting?

5) 14% MDT is alright, yes, but it isn't worth an entire sub. The 60 resistance from a /RDM barspell is miniscule unless you're carrying around a resist set to supplement it. My inventory is cramped enough to have to carry every elemental resist set though.


/RDM is situational yes, and the situation it's useful in is whisker burning. The OP was asking about pure DD subjobs, and /RDM can not compare to /NIN for DD.

[Zagen]

1) Can get nearly the same casting speed /NIN as you can /RDM. 10% difference. Recast is a negligible 2%.

Sub job or 8/9 points only 4 of which "might" be set.

2) Head Butt's recast is 10 seconds, the difference between Fast Cast and Fast Cast II is 2%. 0.2 seconds off of the recast timer. /RDM lends nothing else to Head Butt.

Cool 5% faster land 2.5% faster recast, don't round down when you shouldn't. Point is, it is still faster. than /NIN

3) The difference between MAB and MABII is 4 magic attack bonus. Can already get that while /NIN if you're really in desperate need for extra damage on Sanguine Blade.

Cool another 3 points minimum you're wasting by using a spell combo that wouldn't normally be set for DDing outside of Whisker farming. 4% is still more added to it which also means more HP healed while minimal still reduces MP spent on cures.

4) Convert is unnecessary. No fight lasts long enough for you to run completely out of MP, and if you're solo why are you converting while fighting?

When you're in a group chain pulling mobs you'll run out of MP if you don't then well you won't be keeping up with me. just because you can kill 1 mob in 10-20seconds (5~ with SC) doesn't mean there won't be another one behind it waiting to die, and another one after that. The point is you will run out of MP.

/RDM is situational yes, and the situation it's useful in is whisker burning. The OP was asking about pure DD subjobs, and /RDM can not compare to /NIN for DD.

When I parsed the combos at 80, /RDM won, when I parsed them again at 90 /RDM won again so I don't understand how it "can't compare". But then again I don't waste 7+ set points on Traits when a sub job not only gives them to me but a better version.

[Prothscar]

I'd like to see these parses, because they sound either incredibly skewed or non-existant.

[Zagen]

Rules were:
No Soothing Lights or Temp Item boxes because there was no way for me to keep them consistent.
Same Spell Set.
Utususemi was used as needed.
Stoneskin was only used every 5 min.
Atma: RR/VV/MM
1 hour.
Solo all mobs.

No one attacked a monster I was fighting, I tried to keep people helping away but as you can see that didn't work out completely.

BLU/RDM

Damage Summary
Player Total Dmg Damage % Melee Dmg Range Dmg Abil. Dmg WSkill Dmg Spell Dmg Other Dmg
Tanemomi 858 0.21 % 858 0 0 0 0 0
Zagen 402870 99.79 % 51727 0 0 45123 306020 0
Total 403728 100.00 % 52585 0 0 45123 306020 0


Melee Damage
Player Melee Dmg Melee % Hit/Miss M.HR % M.Acc % M.Low/Hi M+0.Avg M-0.Avg #Crit C.Low/Hi C-0.Avg Crit%
Tanemomi 858 100.00 % 5/0 100.00 % 100.00 % 0/0 0.00 0.00 5 0/191 171.60 100.00 %
Zagen 51727 12.84 % 369/55 87.03 % 87.03 % 0/130 82.73 82.73 186 0/261 196.70 50.41 %


Ranged Damage
Player Range Dmg Range % Hit/Miss R.HR % R.Acc % R.Low/Hi R+0.Avg R-0.Avg #Crit C.Low/Hi C-0.Avg Crit%
Tanemomi 0 0.00 % 0/1 0.00 % 0.00 % 0/0 0.00 0.00 0 0/0 0.00 0.00 %


Weaponskill Damage
Player WSkill Dmg WSkill % Hit/Miss WS.Acc % WS.Low/Hi WS.Avg
Zagen 45123 11.20 % 44/0 100.00 % 532/2038 1025.52
- Sanguine Blade 38959 86.34 % 39/0 100.00 % 532/1314 998.95
- Savage Blade 2579 5.72 % 3/0 100.00 % 753/998 859.67
- Vorpal Blade 3585 7.94 % 2/0 100.00 % 1547/2038 1792.50


Spell Damage
Player Spell Dmg Spell % #Spells #Fail S.Low/Hi S.Avg #MBurst MB.Low/Hi MB.Avg
Zagen 306020 75.96 % 287 9 194/4461 1066.27 0 0/0 0.00
- Benthic Typhoon 4979 1.63 % 5 1 842/1253 995.80 0 0/0 0.00
- Delta Thrust 68945 22.53 % 60 0 631/1696 1149.08 0 0/0 0.00
- Disseverment 84858 27.73 % 58 0 655/2315 1463.07 0 0/0 0.00
- Goblin Rush 12881 4.21 % 9 0 462/2547 1431.22 0 0/0 0.00
- Head Butt 22934 7.49 % 83 5 194/1363 276.31 0 0/0 0.00
- Quad. Continuum 55583 18.16 % 23 0 961/4461 2416.65 0 0/0 0.00
- Vanity Dive 50062 16.36 % 43 3 870/1547 1164.23 0 0/0 0.00
- Whirl of Rage 5778 1.89 % 6 0 762/1230 963.00 0 0/0 0.00


BLU/NIN


Damage Summary
Player Total Dmg Damage % Melee Dmg Range Dmg Abil. Dmg WSkill Dmg Spell Dmg Other Dmg
Rorien 5783 1.61 % 2126 0 25 3503 0 129
Zagen 350110 97.70 % 57897 0 0 31212 261001 0
SC: Distortion 2441 0.68 % 0 0 0 0 0 0
Total 358334 100.00 % 60023 0 25 34715 261001 129


Melee Damage
Player Melee Dmg Melee % Hit/Miss M.HR % M.Acc % M.Low/Hi M+0.Avg M-0.Avg #Crit C.Low/Hi C-0.Avg Crit%
Rorien 2126 36.76 % 16/7 69.57 % 100.00 % 0/108 81.44 81.44 7 0/221 199.00 43.75 %
Zagen 57897 16.54 % 420/77 84.51 % 100.00 % 0/120 76.94 76.94 233 0/260 186.74 55.48 %


Other Magical Damage (Additional Effects and Spikes)
Player M.AE Dmg # M.AE M.AE Avg R.AE Dmg # R.AE R.AE Avg Spk.Dmg # Spike Spk.Avg
Rorien 0 0 0.00 0 0 0.00 129 5 25.80


Weaponskill Damage
Player WSkill Dmg WSkill % Hit/Miss WS.Acc % WS.Low/Hi WS.Avg
Rorien 3503 60.57 % 2/0 100.00 % 1595/1908 1751.50
- Vorpal Blade 3503 100.00 % 2/0 100.00 % 1595/1908 1751.50
Zagen 31212 8.91 % 37/0 100.00 % 297/1944 843.57
- Sanguine Blade 16972 54.38 % 23/0 100.00 % 378/850 737.91
- Savage Blade 7892 25.29 % 10/0 100.00 % 297/1257 789.20
- Vorpal Blade 6348 20.34 % 4/0 100.00 % 1135/1944 1587.00


Ability Damage
Player Abil. Dmg Abil. % Hit/Miss A.Acc % A.Low/Hi A.Avg
Rorien 25 0.43 % 1/0 100.00 % 25/25 25.00
- Shield Bash 25 100.00 % 1/0 100.00 % 25/25 25.00


Spell Damage
Player Spell Dmg Spell % #Spells #Fail S.Low/Hi S.Avg #MBurst MB.Low/Hi MB.Avg
Zagen 261001 74.55 % 241 6 0/4556 1082.99 0 0/0 0.00
- Benthic Typhoon 3394 1.30 % 4 0 825/897 848.50 0 0/0 0.00
- Delta Thrust 47179 18.08 % 45 0 573/1471 1048.42 0 0/0 0.00
- Disseverment 61479 23.56 % 44 0 794/2173 1397.25 0 0/0 0.00
- Goblin Rush 12947 4.96 % 12 0 493/1534 1078.92 0 0/0 0.00
- Head Butt 14820 5.68 % 64 4 0/357 231.56 0 0/0 0.00
- Quad. Continuum 71361 27.34 % 26 0 891/4556 2744.65 0 0/0 0.00
- Vanity Dive 46880 17.96 % 42 2 762/1506 1116.19 0 0/0 0.00
- Whirl of Rage 2941 1.13 % 4 0 600/895 735.25 0 0/0 0.00


Skillchain Damage
Skillchain SC Dmg # SC SC.Low/Hi SC.Avg
SC: Distortion 2441 1 2441/2441 2441.00


I honestly don't know how 1 SC showed up while I was on /NIN since my gear swaps normally prevent me from seeing the SC damage/animations. I'm sure if I had used Items/Soothing Light chests the numbers would be different but also would be a lot less accurate since I could have gotten 100 on one run and only 70 on another.

Edit: this is the parse at 90 I don't have the one at 80 anymore due to a reformat of my computer in between.

tl:dr
BLU/RDM: 402,870
BLU/NIN: 350,110

[Prothscar]

Continued from the other thread as to keep it on topic and not attract the ire of Moderators:

It's only a loss in dps if your spell damage is so poor it can't outweigh your melee dps.

No, it's a loss in DPS. Due to the way level correction works and how we cannot augment the attack of our spells to scale with a monster's defenses, it's far more realistic to augment the damage of sword DoT and weaponskills. This is common and basic knowledge.

Regardless this is off topic and most other posts in this thread are also off topic people should just put what atmas they use so people have an idea of what is good in differant situations not try to belittle others for the atma choices it's childish even if you have math to back it up.

While we're being childish, "they started it" etc. etc.

The nice thing about blue mage is that its a hybrid job and there can be many differant play styles and just because one atma doesn't increase your damage specifically, doesn't mean its the same for everyone.

It's a hybrid job, but there's no such thing as hybrid damage. You either do damage or you don't. In this situation, spamming spells is more effective on trash EM-T mobs and lower, and sword damage will pull ahead on almost anything higher than that for the reasons specified above. pDIF is broken on blue magic. Even assuming that magic spamming is the better choice, Voracious Violet is a lesser choice to Apocalypse for any Blue Mage.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Admittedly forgot to point out Physical Spells lose alot on stronger mobs due to Blue magic attack being so low, I can agree to those points. At the same time, if /Nin and not casting often you could drop MM and use Sang Scythe.