Claim System + Call for Help Code = Win

I have seen so many threads recently about losing claim on monsters and people 'stealing' pops etc. I am proposing a solution in a new thread, rather than posting this idea in the seven other threads.

First off, let me poison the well here and scorn Square Enix for not exercising a simple concept of:

"The Spirit of the Law"...

When a monster goes unclaimed by ways of a, I will call "faulty" game mechanic, and the GMs take the side of the group that 'steals' the monster, when the party originally fighting it are still in complete control of the monster; is it so hard to exercise the spirit of the law on that? Set a few examples, temp ban some of the more unsavory, dare i say sociopathic, folks playing that thrive on that behavior? I mean it's not specifically stated that you can't do this, but that's not really an excuse...

This is silly kids' stuff you're enabling, Square. Letting these guys wave their fingers extremely close someone's face saying "I'M NOT TOUCHING YOU!" repeatedly... Only the scenario is closer to someone straight up punching another in the face and the assailant saying, "they were in the way of my fist, they should have moved if they didn't want to get hit"...

The simple solution is the leave a monster claimed until all combatants have been defeated.

The next best thing, would be punishing people that exploit a game mechanic for personal gain.


The proposal: Turn the "Call for Help" code into the general claim code.

What I mean by this:


Here's one of several typical scenarios of how claim gets lost:

1) Fighting a monster.
2) Main tank starts to disconnect, can't move away from the monster, can't move the monster.
3) One of two things happen here:
>> a) The tank is forced out of the game and the monster goes unclaimed.
>> b) The tank is forced out of the game, the monster goes unclaimed and all party members are forced to disengage because the current coding makes the disconnecting member drop party before they drop off the server....
4) Sociopathic player/group takes advantage of this and claims the monster, kills it.


Here's what happens when someone calls for help on a monster:

1) Player calls for help.
2) Monster remains in the 'open' status for people to attack it until either:
>> a) Monster is killed.
>> b) Monster kills anyone that took action on it and goes idle for a certain amount of time.

SO....

Why can't a monster stay claimed until it kills anyone that took action on it and goes idle for a certain amount of time?

There's many reasons people lose claim:

Disconnects
Taking a melee off the mob, and they disengage after having been the last to act on the monster.
A player dies after being the last to perform an action on the monster.
The monster runs out of range, causing a player to disengage.
A player runs out of range to avoid a devastating ability/spell*.

*Meteor, Astral Flow, and several other things encompass the maximum "stay engaged" range, if you run out of range of them, you are forced to disengage, and you don't have the luxury in most cases to check if you're the last person to take action on the monster, disengage, then run.

It's so easy to say "just don't lose claim". But there's so many situations where 'it just happens'...

The truth is, this should have never been an issue.... but Square has enabled these people who openly steal popped monsters causing this problem to grow rapidly. There's even a saying: "If it's yellow, claim that fellow" because this practice is so accepted...

This problem is tantamount to a burglar saying: "Hey man, if you didn't want your things stolen, you shouldn't have locked them up in your house" and the police agreeing...

Or a guy suing his employer for "Wrongful Termination" after intentionally burning down the office, because there was no rule against it...

Fix that which is broke.

Please.

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Originally Posted by Frost

"The Spirit of the Law"...

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I'm giving you a thumbs up, because you have the guts to say something like this.

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Originally Posted by Frost

"they were in the way of my fist, they should have moved if they didn't want to get hit"....

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rofl I loved this and I agree that NM stealing is wrong, if the alliance fighting it wiped, OK, don't let a pop go to waste. To claim just after it goes yellow because of game mechanics, you sir, are a penis. The claim issue should be fixed if possible!

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Originally Posted by Frost

Why can't a monster stay claimed until it kills anyone that took action on it and goes idle for a certain amount of time?

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I totally agree with this.

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Why can't a monster stay claimed until it kills anyone that took action on it and goes idle for a certain amount of time?

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And if you want to unclaim a mob without dying? Your just sol?

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Here's one of several typical scenarios of how claim gets lost:

1) Fighting a monster.
2) Main tank starts to disconnect, can't move away from the monster, can't move the monster.
3) One of two things happen here:
>> a) The tank is forced out of the game and the monster goes unclaimed.
>> b) The tank is forced out of the game, the monster goes unclaimed and all party members are forced to disengage because the current coding makes the disconnecting member drop party before they drop off the server....
4) Sociopathic player/group takes advantage of this and claims the monster, kills it.

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So you pull hate off the tank, move the mob away from him, and then attack it, so he does not have claim.

It really is not hard to keep claim on mobs, regardless of what happens.

The only "faulty mechanic" here is charm. Everything else works as intended.

Claim should never be lost unless it's one person acting on multiple mobs or someone pulling pinning crap. Otherwise, the amount of mobs you can keep claimed should be based on your party/alliance size. Giving up claim could then be achieved by your party/alliance leader through another option in the CFH menu.

That's it. There's no defending the current system unless you're someone who likes to steal mobs.

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Originally Posted by seriha

or someone pulling pinning crap.

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Originally Posted by seriha

That's it. There's no defending the current system unless you're someone who likes to steal mobs.

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But it is ok to steal from anyone who is pinning?

I can't remember the last time I lost claim.

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Originally Posted by sruon

I can't remember the last time I lost claim.

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I can. It was back at 75, when i was soloing a charybdis. It deaggroed when i was about 30' away, and it was unclaimed for about half a second before i could get to it and hit it with poison.

Ah, the guy who loves to pin, speed hack, and tells everyone who can't solo something you've claimed to sucks is trying to play the "two wrongs don't make a right" card. We've been over this before on Alla, though. Pinning shouldn't be possible to begin with and SE designing content for (small) parties and enforcing that wish isn't a bad thing. I have no sympathy for those abusing an exploit getting burned in the process of employing it.

I don't really pin anything, but ok.

And why shouldn't it be possible? It works in irl, so why not in game? Not to mention it also works in basically ll other games, to varying degrees.

I must've missed that documentary on national geographic where an animal can take one step to the left and make a predator run a huge circle around a rock.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

I must've missed that documentary on national geographic where an animal can take one step to the left and make a predator run a huge circle around a rock.

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Must have. I used to pin my grandmother on the kitchen table all the time.

Congrats, you ran from an old woman who didn't wanna kill you. Now when it's someone more serious, they'll push the table at you, push it away/overturn it, climb over it, or start throwing things at you.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Congrats, you ran from an old woman who didn't wanna kill you. Now when it's someone more serious, they'll push the table at you, push it away/overturn it, climb over it, or start throwing things at you.

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Change table to 5 ton boulder, that is too steep to climb over.

Pinning works fine in irl. Maybe not as well as in ffxi, but it certainly works.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Giving up claim could then be achieved by your party/alliance leader through another option in the CFH menu.

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QFT.

Stupid 10 character limit.

Still QFT

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QFT.

Stupid 10 character limit.

Still QFT

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Originally Posted by rog

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

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I admit I kinda laughed at this but do you have to be such a smartass? =p

Back on topic(ish) pinning does work irl and ingame. The only reason I would take a pinned mob if it was taking too long for the pinner to kill. Maybe instead of a rage system, there can be a claim time limit, sort of like a battlefield? I know, there are flaws with that idea. Just throwing my opinion out there.

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Why can't a monster stay claimed until it kills anyone that took action on it and goes idle for a certain amount of time?

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Err.... that happens now, except it's an OR where you have the word AND.

Sorry, the claim system needs no changes. Don't fail at winning, and you won't have a problem. If everyone has been defeated, even if they have reraise, if they take action quickly, then they're using zombie tactics (they're not going to survive and are depending on repeated deaths to get to the end of the fight) which are discouraged.

If you liose, you lose. That's it. If a monster goes unclaimed, it's virtually always because you lost. It's the game's way of saying that.

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Giving up claim could then be achieved by your party/alliance leader through another option in the CFH menu.

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Your party/alliance leader cannot press this button while KO'd- thus a group can even unintentionally monopolize a monster without being able to defeat it.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Ah, the guy who loves to pin, speed hack, and tells everyone who can't solo something you've claimed to sucks is trying to play the "two wrongs don't make a right" card. We've been over this before on Alla, though. Pinning shouldn't be possible to begin with and SE designing content for (small) parties and enforcing that wish isn't a bad thing. I have no sympathy for those abusing an exploit getting burned in the process of employing it.

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Only Alla posters would consider pinning an exploit.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

Only Alla posters would consider pinning an exploit.

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It is an exploit. Anyone who says otherwise is retarded, and wrong.

You might want to invest in a dictionary.

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Originally Posted by rog

It is an exploit. Anyone who says otherwise is retarded, and wrong.

You might want to invest in a dictionary.

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I don't see pinning as an exploit at all as long as the mob can reach and kill a player who stops doing anything.

Now, trapping the Ironclads and Amhuluk on the cliffs in Abyssea and rendering them helpless? Yeah, that was an exploit.

See also: Wall of Justice.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

I don't see pinning as an exploit at all as long as the mob can reach and kill a player who stops doing anything.

Now, trapping the Ironclads and Amhuluk on the cliffs in Abyssea and rendering them helpless? Yeah, that was an exploit.

See also: Wall of Justice.

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You are still exploiting a weakness. It is an exploit just like casting water on tiamat is.

ITT: your wrong.

For the love of all that is holy, SE needs to do start punishing these forum trolls.

a. pinning is not an exploit, it's a tactic. Granted, not all jobs can do it effectively, but that's why there are 20 job choices. All you have to do is level a job that can do it.

b. if you "lose claim" you do not necessarily "suck", there's some funkiness with the game hate mechanics that are simply not realistic. If you poison someone and they are still taking damage from it RL they are not gonna stop being pissed at you because you've walked 30 feet away or haven't poisoned them again for 5 seconds. Apparently in Vanadiel they REALLY believe in "turning the other cheek".

c. you will never get people who believe that it is wrong for you to take a mob that they have done the work to obtain (and you have not), claimed, and through some mechanism (death of last player to cause damage, mass charm, etc.) momentarily have go white believe that it is right for you to profit from their efforts by claiming a weakened mob and killing it yourself. You are wasting your efforts by even trying to convince them. Yes I know the rules allow it, RL allows you to travel to other countries to have sex with child prostitutes (or animals) legally, that doesn't make it right, this is a matter of ethics. Taking that mob is unethical. You should be ashamed of yourself for even attempting to take it.

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Taking that mob is unethical. You should be ashamed of yourself for even attempting to take it.

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When the original gorup has zero chance of defeating they mob, no, they shouldnt be ashamed. that mob would just depop and anything it might drop would simply be gone.

However, if I were to be involved in something like this, I would consider inviting people from the group to lot on drops. Either way though, it is better that the mob is actually killed than no one kiling it, the mob depopping, and the pop truly going to waste.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

When the original gorup has zero chance of defeating they mob, no, they shouldnt be ashamed. that mob would just depop and anything it might drop would simply be gone.

However, if I were to be involved in something like this, I would consider inviting people from the group to lot on drops. Either way though, it is better that the mob is actually killed than no one kiling it, the mob depopping, and the pop truly going to waste.

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actually, I believe that the vulture group SHOULD be forced to either wait until the mob is at full strength or it should depop and go to waste. And a mob going white for a second doesn't mean that the popping group has "zero chance of defeating the mob", that's a BS argument people have tried to use to justify stealing it since day one here. Those complaining of the stealing of the mob are still determined to keep fighting and killing it. They may need a player to RR and reengage and kite through weakness, or have a charm wear or whatever, but they are still game or they wouldn't care. The only REAL reason they have "zero chance of defeating the mob" is because it seems some ass-hat stole it while they were trying to reestablish claim on it and won't release it back to the group that actually did the work.

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Your party/alliance leader cannot press this button while KO'd- thus a group can even unintentionally monopolize a monster without being able to defeat it.

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Emphasizing the leader keep RR active and use it responsibly is a bit more sensible than the "suck less" mantra floating around justifying the system's current flaws. Besides, some are also too quick to determine when a group has no chance.

Overall, I can understanding not wanting to waste time or stand around with your finger up your butt at a contested mob. Ideally, the better solution would be to further expand on the amount of copies an NM that can be up to encompass all popped mobs much like they recently did with the zone bosses and such. The goal is both minimize the chances to steal and the temptation to.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

a. pinning is not an exploit, it's a tactic. Granted, not all jobs can do it effectively, but that's why there are 20 job choices. All you have to do is level a job that can do it.

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Yes it is. It is ok though, because so is nuking water instead of fire on tiamat, because it is less likely to resist. Pinning exploits poor pathings AI, and nuking water on tiamat exploits his weakness to water. The confusion here is that people associate the word "exploit" with something bad. In fact exploiting something is more often than not, a good thing.

Look! he's standing close to the fence! I'm gonna get him......! oh no! now he stepped back .5 yalms... now I gotta run around this long fence, taking 10 seconds before I can hit him.... ah crap I was almost there and now he's close to the fence again... even though I can see him right there in front of me... I'm gonna run back around the fence!


yea... not an exploit.

but everyone please do continue.. I'm laughing so hard at people rationalizing with the same basic idea that "It's not an exploit, it's taking advantage of a terrain tactic"

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Originally Posted by Capn

Look! he's standing close to the fence! I'm gonna get him......! oh no! now he stepped back .5 yalms... now I gotta run around this long fence, taking 10 seconds before I can hit him.... ah crap I was almost there and now he's close to the fence again... even though I can see him right there in front of me... I'm gonna run back around the fence!


yea... not an exploit.

but everyone please do continue.. I'm laughing so hard at people rationalizing with the same basic idea that "It's not an exploit, it's taking advantage of a terrain tactic"

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Just fyi, not all pinning works that way. It is still an effective strategy even with just a simple rock to kite around. Pinning only became popular (and thus hated) with VNMs, when kaeko found the various spots, such as the ronfaure fence, etc, that worked as you described. However it has been used since the beginning of the game (and earlier, in other games, not to mention since the beginning of time in irl), because even without poor tracking AIs, it works. The time it takes for a mob (or person/animal/whatever) to react is all that is needed to create an advantage.

But yes, it is an exploit, as i explained above.

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Originally Posted by rog

And if you want to unclaim a mob without dying? Your just sol?

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Eat the death and wipe its only exp, if you know you couldn't handle it you shouldn't of engaged it, what are you trying to do MPK people?

The keeping claim system is broken as been said many times hate is only on 1 person so if they die it goes white and then everyone has to scramble and spam an extra something, anything and everything to reclaim it even if everyone has done a action before the death it still goes unclaimed. With how the system is now its who can solo the best out of the alliance and when they die it unclaims for everyone and that's not right. The monster should stay claimed no matter what until everyone on the hate list is dead even through a charmga but it doesn't so yes this needs to be fixed and should be top priority screw the updates for the year if something game breaking like this isn't fixed.
People that defend its working as intended are the people that steal monsters.

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Originally Posted by rog

Must have. I used to pin my grandmother on the kitchen table all the time.

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Take that out of context and that sounds so wrong... sorry couldn't resist!

This would enable people to apoc zombie something forever, and block other people from content. Any system that is added that does not allow stuff to go unclaimed until everyone is dead is a very bad idea simply because it would enable people to block others from being able to do it. Now, if they wanted to add a 10 minute depop timer to every NM inside abyssea, I wouldn't care if they added the claim system you advocate, because that would defeat the ability to hold mobs forever.

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Originally Posted by rog

Just fyi, not all pinning works that way. It is still an effective strategy even with just a simple rock to kite around. Pinning only became popular (and thus hated) with VNMs, when kaeko found the various spots, such as the ronfaure fence, etc, that worked as you described. However it has been used since the beginning of the game (and earlier, in other games, not to mention since the beginning of time in irl), because even without poor tracking AIs, it works. The time it takes for a mob (or person/animal/whatever) to react is all that is needed to create an advantage.

But yes, it is an exploit, as i explained above.

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Right, but pinning and circle kiting are different things. Circle kiting exploits mobs that don't run faster than you (with or without enhanced movement speed items). Pinning is an exploit in the pathing AI.

Although now that I think about it, you're talking about pinning on one side of a rock or object, when you reach the central point between the the mob and the opposite corner. I remember doing this as cor with a blm friend on fortitude many times. while for the most part, I just kept running in a circle since I was solo a lot.

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Originally Posted by Crocker

Eat the death and wipe its only exp, if you know you couldn't handle it you shouldn't of engaged it, what are you trying to do MPK people?

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I do not care about exp. I care about being weakened for 5 minutes.

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The keeping claim system is broken as been said many times hate is only on 1 person so if they die it goes white and then everyone has to scramble and spam an extra something, anything and everything to reclaim it even if everyone has done a action before the death it still goes unclaimed. With how the system is now its who can solo the best out of the alliance and when they die it unclaims for everyone and that's not right. The monster should stay claimed no matter what until everyone on the hate list is dead even through a charmga but it doesn't so yes this needs to be fixed and should be top priority screw the updates for the year if something game breaking like this isn't fixed.
People that defend its working as intended are the people that steal monsters.

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Or because we consider the shortcomings of such a change. For example, vnms depop instantly when the hate list is cleared. Do you want the pop to be wasted in such a case? Or would you rather give it up, and let someone else take it?

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Take that out of context and that sounds so wrong... sorry couldn't resist!

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Context? What? That was just a random statement.

Or they could make dying 3 times after double weakness without unweakening auto-HP you. Forcing 10m despawns is way too harsh.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Or they could make dying 3 times after double weakness without unweakening auto-HP you.

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lol.

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Forcing 10m despawns is way too harsh.

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What about 30 minutes?

Depends on the mob. Abyssea's timer alone is enough, though, and I don't think every mob everywhere is being zombie'd. Besides, do what I mentioned earlier and one group taking an inordinate amount of time would be a non-issue unless you're trying to mass AoE brew.

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Originally Posted by rog

lol.


What about 30 minutes?

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This is the purpose of the 60 minute rage timer. You may not agree with the time, but this at least has been addressed in SE's judgment.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

This is the purpose of the 60 minute rage timer. You may not agree with the time, but this at least has been addressed in SE's judgment.

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And the current Claim system is there in order to keep morons from clogging up content.

You may not agree with losing your claim after half your alliance wipes and your mages are too fingersmacking dumb to keep claim properly, but this at least has been addressed in SE's judgment.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Abyssea's timer alone is enough

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It takes exactly one person farming time to stay in abyssea forever. Including while that one person is sleeping/working.