Cataclysm Farming

So in the wake of all the craziness with Fell Cleave etc, I was taking a good hard look at Cataclysm as another option. First thing that struck out to me is how much it sucks that BLM can't use this WS, thanks a lot SE.

So I've narrowed it down to either PLD or MNK for the ideal job to do this on, leaning more on PLD for Phalanx and Cures etc. just in case (and A+ skill rating).


The real problem, is what weapon to use. Martial Staff has just shot up to 1 mil on Bismark (along with a bunch of others, way to go jerks. Keep gouging the playerbase) which leaves me with Pluto's staff for the time being, as I don't have a Yama's +1/+2 geared for Dark Magic Damage.


Which would win out though? And is it even worth going for? I've already checked in another thread on BG, and Martial does indeed beat Pluto's due to the massive difference in fTP at 200 and 300.

But does it still win out against Yama +2? Obviously not if you build up a lot of TP beforehand, but Yama +2 does still provide a huge +30% Dark Attack.

I'm not sure why you're asking here when you have access to BG. Did you not like their answer or something? Never mind, rhetorical question.

Sidenote: Blm can get Cata from subjob, MNK and PLD can't use magian staves.

Don't forget that BLM doesn't need Cataclysm.

You forget what makes BLM so special....

^ because spells give amber right. :P


And does BLM get it with SJ? Someone really needs to word the wiki entries better - it specifically says main job only.

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Originally Posted by Wiki

Cataclysm is only natively available to Paladins, Warriors, Monks, and White Mages. While other jobs can obtain the required 290 Staff skill, they must use one of the aforementioned jobs as their support job in order to gain access to Cataclysm.

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Not that the wiki isn't full of garbage information lately but this info has been there for years.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Don't forget that BLM doesn't need Cataclysm.

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And WHM does?

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Originally Posted by Malacite

^ because spells give amber right. :P

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They don't need to. Blm can easily get amber with rock crusher (hits ephemerals for ~1k pretty easily, so one nuke and rock crusher will finish them).

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Originally Posted by Raksha

And WHM does?

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They have no other way to kill groups of 20 mobs, so yes.

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Originally Posted by rog

They have no other way to kill groups of 20 mobs, so yes.

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LOL

Also Earth Crusher.

And another thing, how about giving SCH native cataclysm then?

I was under the assumption WHM had banishga as well. Not sure what numbers you get up with that, but probably not anything amazing. On the other hand I only reach 1k AOE with Ramuh on SMN so that is definitely a job that needs native Cataclysm WS.

Well, actually it needs all 2 hours moved to normal BP timers, but DRG is the only job that can whine their 2 hour into normal timers. Just hoping SE realize this before 99 so we get a full set of new AOE pacts.

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Originally Posted by Malacite

^ because spells give amber right. :P


And does BLM get it with SJ? Someone really needs to word the wiki entries better - it specifically says main job only.

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If you're relying on the amber you get from Cataclysm'ing a bunch of mobs, you're doing it wrong. You only get lights off of mobs you actually target. Therefore, get amber elsewhere, or send somebody else to get it, and there'd be little difference between a BLM or BLU killing a mob with a spell, or your WS'er killing it with cata.....except you're going to run into time chests.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I was under the assumption WHM had banishga as well.

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lol...

It does almost no damage, and has a 30 second recast.

Yeah, if you boost it with gear and atmas, a whm might be able to see 500 damage with it on a single target.

Also, comparing Call Wyvern to Astral Flow as 2 hour abilities is terrible.

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Originally Posted by Seyomeyo

If you're relying on the amber you get from Cataclysm'ing a bunch of mobs, you're doing it wrong. You only get lights off of mobs you actually target. Therefore, get amber elsewhere, or send somebody else to get it, and there'd be little difference between a BLM or BLU killing a mob with a spell, or your WS'er killing it with cata.....except you're going to run into time chests.

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I'm fairly positive you can get amber from AoE multiple mobs with the same move, I've done it with Aeolian Edge on THF. Even had Red !! proc off a Cyclone that wasn't targeted on the NM.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

On the other hand I only reach 1k AOE with Ramuh on SMN so that is definitely a job that needs native Cataclysm WS.

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Only 1k?

Is your skill uncapped or something?

The only reason Fell Cleave burning works so well for WAR is because of Retaliation giving WAR 200-300 tp every 3-5 seconds. PLD can't get tp like that without a shield, and are better off subbing RDM for Aeolian Edge spam. MNK is simply screwed out of that idea. I mean, it would work, but it would be more time consuming receiving minimal tp from taking hits, gaining no tp from countering, leaving them most heavily reliant on their own swings.

I made another thread about native BLM/SMN weapon skills, and the main point I wanted to make was that weapon skills like Cataclysm could potentially make solo farming much easier (that and the fact that not giving them such weapon skills is completely retarded).

If you're trying to insinuate that MNK is unable to get TP fast enough to properly AoE, I'm afraid you're pretty far off base.

It's not like I've never seen them do it before. The point I'm making is that WAR is obviously the most ideal choice for the matter. Even if you're trying to build your amber lights (although killing multiple targets with the same weapon skill only wields the lights from one mob) will still work better for a WAR. MNK has the capability to gain tp relatively quickly (with a staff? lol) that doesn't make them a suitable choice for AoE burns.

Ideal? Most likely, but not as clear cut as you're making it out to be. WAR has the advantage in TP gain due to Retaliation, but both jobs should be hitting 100+ TP in a matter of seconds just by being beat on (Over-TP'ing also only affects Fell Cleave's radius, while MNK is rocking +100 TP bonus minimum and TP overflow converts directly into damage). Cataclysm is also a significantly stronger WS than non-MS Fell Cleave, and deals consistent and predictable damage.

For low-man KI farming with 1 melee? WAR would pull ahead if only because of its access to Red procs to finish off near-complete sets, saving time and increasing efficiency. Adding a MNK instead of a second WAR to a cleave? Absolutely nothing lost.

No reason to argue with someone who always has to be right >.>

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If you're trying to insinuate that MNK is unable to get TP fast enough to properly AoE, I'm afraid you're pretty far off base.

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With a staff?

I use Cataclysm on SMN all the time. It works quite well, acceptably even if you're not using an MAB setup.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

With a staff?

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Ignoring Kick Attacks and thus AF3+2 set bonus activation, Staff gets TP faster than H2H. Real talk.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Ideal? Most likely, but not as clear cut as you're making it out to be. WAR has the advantage in TP gain due to Retaliation, but both jobs should be hitting 100+ TP in a matter of seconds just by being beat on (Over-TP'ing also only affects Fell Cleave's radius, while MNK is rocking +100 TP bonus minimum and TP overflow converts directly into damage). Cataclysm is also a significantly stronger WS than non-MS Fell Cleave, and deals consistent and predictable damage.

For low-man KI farming with 1 melee? WAR would pull ahead if only because of its access to Red procs to finish off near-complete sets, saving time and increasing efficiency. Adding a MNK instead of a second WAR to a cleave? Absolutely nothing lost.

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War can use cataclysm.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Ignoring Kick Attacks and thus AF3+2 set bonus activation, Staff gets TP faster than H2H. Real talk.

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I never knew that.

I thought the delay reduction from Martial Arts would create the inverse of your statement. Guess not.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I never knew that.

I thought the delay reduction from Martial Arts would create the inverse of your statement. Guess not.

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Martial Arts causes MNK to hit more often in the same amount of time, dealing more damage. But it decreases TP gain proportional to the increase in number of swings, so it's not really increasing WS frequency unless you hit a lucky x-hit step. Mnk subs Sam when cleaving, so the 10% JA Haste from Hasso puts Staff TP gain solidly ahead.

I completely forgot WAR can use Cata though <_< mah bad.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Martial Arts causes MNK to hit more often in the same amount of time, dealing more damage. But it decreases TP gain proportional to the increase in number of swings, so it's not really increasing WS frequency unless you hit a lucky x-hit step.

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Tp does not scale linearly with delay. Come on, you should know this.

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Also, comparing Call Wyvern to Astral Flow as 2 hour abilities is terrible.

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I was comparing people who get their 2 hours as JAs and those who don't. If my intention had been to compare Astral Flows, it would have been towards -ga spells that are just on individual timers. It really isn't that huge difference between Astral flow and -ga spells though. Mainly that you can use too few SMNs and still live after AOEing with astral flow, while you need enough BLMs AOEing to kill most stuff directly.

I'm sure someone will go talk about Astral Burns now, but that only really works at level 20. If you are a level 60 SMN it just doesn't perform as good as a decent ga spell, not to mention BLMs have sleepgas by then so they can just spam it and hope for the best.

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Originally Posted by rog

Tp does not scale linearly with delay. Come on, you should know this.

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Yes yes, true enough. Realistically though we're just comparing a Delay: 356 Pluto's staff to a Delay: 331 pair of Verethragna, which was my point. H2H really isn't getting a massive TP gain increase over Staff, and most certainly not because of Martial Arts. The sweet spot for high TP/Delay ratio is 480-530. Mnk would effectively gain TP faster without martial arts at all (though it would do significantly less damage).

ANYWAY, after the long derailing and name-calling etc... what's the final verdict for Cata-farming on BLM?

Martial/Magian TP Staff, or Yama +1/+2 with magic dmg +5? Yes ideally you should be box farming in at least a small group for the sake of speculation/fun, if you were to solo farm on BLM (since you can easily slaughter hordes of EP) what would be the better weapon to farm with for Cataclysm? Martial and fire off at 100 every time, or Yama's +1/+2?

I'm really curious (again for the sake of argument/speculation) just how high a BLM could get Cataclysm using Yama's with 300 tp. It's probably even better than nuking during a brew O.o (at least until we get Blizzaja/Thunder V, though AFAIK COR is the best brew job with a proper Wildfire setup.)

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Originally Posted by Malacite

ANYWAY, after the long derailing and name-calling etc... what's the final verdict for Cata-farming on BLM?

Martial/Magian TP Staff, or Yama +1/+2 with magic dmg +5? Yes ideally you should be box farming in at least a small group for the sake of speculation/fun, if you were to solo farm on BLM (since you can easily slaughter hordes of EP) what would be the better weapon to farm with for Cataclysm? Martial and fire off at 100 every time, or Yama's +1/+2?

I'm really curious (again for the sake of argument/speculation) just how high a BLM could get Cataclysm using Yama's with 300 tp. It's probably even better than nuking during a brew O.o (at least until we get Blizzaja/Thunder V)

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Neither, since blm uses firaja/blizzaga3/aeroja for exping/farming.

But yes, cataclysm is far better than nuking with a brew.

Again, for building amber solo on BLM >->

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Originally Posted by Malacite

Again, for building amber solo on BLM >->

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blm/rdm can't use cata.

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Originally Posted by Malacite

Again, for building amber solo on BLM >->

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You don't build Amber with AoE'ing. You build it on VNMs. And you can do so with Earth Crusher on BLM/RDM.

At 100% TP Martial will win. The answer is simple:

%fTP DMG increase = NewfTP/OldfTP

%Affinity DMG increase = NewTotalAffinity/OldTotalAffinity

Even if you're not using Cosmos/Banishers (Which diminish the returns of Yama), it's 30% v 45% increase. That of course, assumes wiki's Magic Affinity page is correct and Yama+2 gives 30% bonus damage.

Edit: However, it will vary based on atma.