Why Can't you use Grips when using H2H?

Seriously, is there a reason why SE wont let us use Grips when using Hand-to-Hand Weapons? If we cannot have grips, why not have Hand Bandages with decent stats instead, would be pretty neat. :D

Any ideas? I'd love to hear it.

This has never really bothered me personally, since there's very little they'd need to add to the two primary H2H jobs. MNK is one of the strongest DDs in the game (and always has been), and PUP is no slouch with the cap increase lessening the impact of their biggest weakness either.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ight=h2h+grips
This idea was actually a big part of this thread.

I always assumed that SE just wanted to curb the power monk has. I mean, look at the difficulty in getting a black belt. They know monk is already so win they don't want to risk making it better.

The grips don't have any really game breaking stats and with the 2hander update never under stood why mnk didn't get grips. They only get shadows from /nin and other jobs got the dely reduction and shadows, not it matters much now.

Sad thing is back when grips were added I assumed H2H could use them. Boy was I disappointed...

Because its hard to wrap the grip around a H2H weapon.

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Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch

Because its hard to wrap the grip around a H2H weapon.

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In the Monk thread, the poster called them Wraps. So, the band actually wraps around your hand, not the weapon.

Because h2h weapons are treated a 1 handed weapons for all kinds of math (attack/STR ratio dex/acc ratio ) Hell they even attack twice during weaponskills like dual wielded weapons and have 2 shots to double or triple attack...

:/

No one else realize/remember that there are Shadow-type enemies in Fei'Yin that can use only 1 h2h piece, leaving the other hand empty?

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Originally Posted by Miera

Seriously, is there a reason why SE wont let us use Grips when using Hand-to-Hand

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H2H is ridiculously powerful due to how H2H weapon DMG is calculated.

H2H Skill * 0.11 + 3 + Weapon DMG

A lvl 90 MNK with full H2H merits Faith Torque and Verethragna is wielding a weapon with DMG 80 Delay 331 and a minimum of two hits per attack round. And Counter increases their damage even further.

SE doesn't need to make MNK any more powerful because they're already approaching Kenshiro levels as it is. "Fixing" MNK isn't necessary because they are already THE strongest melee AND tank in the game right now. A well equipped MNK and WHM with good atmas can duo almost anything.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

SE doesn't need to make MNK any more powerful because they're already approaching Kenshiro levels as it is.

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Amazing.

On topic I really think some people who say this have OCD kicking in from not having something in a slot which is filled with something on every other job in the game. Also bothers me how you manage to fit a cylinder based grip on a GK.

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

:/

No one else realize/remember that there are Shadow-type enemies in Fei'Yin that can use only 1 h2h piece, leaving the other hand empty?

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Players can do that too if they leave their main hand empty and equip a shield offhand. You can't use H2H WS if you do this however.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Players can do that too if they leave their main hand empty and equip a shield offhand. You can't use H2H WS if you do this however.

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That doesn't count as equipping a h2h weapon in one hand. That's just one fist as a weapon.

Anyway my post was more to show that h2h can't use grips because they're 2 individual weapons that get dual wielded but in a single slot (the main one).

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

That doesn't count as equipping a h2h weapon in one hand. That's just one fist as a weapon.

Anyway my post was more to show that h2h can't use grips because they're 2 individual weapons that get dual wielded but in a single hand.

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Your bare hands are weapons, you can even use H2H WS with them. Most of your DMG rating on H2H comes from your bare hands and not the H2H weapon you've equipped.

If you swap your dats you can actually change a sub-handed H2H weapon to say a dagger if you want which means the game sees your H2H as a Main weapon and a sub weapon on your character, instead of just the 1 weapon in the main hand slot in your EQ menu. So my take on it is when you equip a H2H weapon there is pretty much an invisible sub weapon in that slot at least from the coding stand point probably. So when they had the idea to create grips they probably thought about making "wraps" fiddled with it for 20 minutes, decided it was too much work and gave up. That's my best guess anyway :/ wraps would be nice though.

realistically you would not need a grip for a pair of knuckles... but yeah, hand bandages and stuff would give H2H the ability to fill that sub slot

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Originally Posted by Sesh

If you swap your dats you can actually change a sub-handed H2H weapon to say a dagger if you want which means the game sees your H2H as a Main weapon and a sub weapon on your character, instead of just the 1 weapon in the main hand slot in your EQ menu. So my take on it is when you equip a H2H weapon there is pretty much an invisible sub weapon in that slot at least from the coding stand point probably. So when they had the idea to create grips they probably thought about making "wraps" fiddled with it for 20 minutes, decided it was too much work and gave up. That's my best guess anyway :/ wraps would be nice though.

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This is actually why they didn't make grips for H2H. Despite only showing in your main hand, H2H weapons are actually dual wielded taking up both slots. Its how they were designed and coded and SE just doesn't seem to feel that effort to change it is worth the development cost and time involved. I understand how hand to hand users are feeling left out, but seriously, have you seen monk? The job is a beast, would a few more minor stat boosts really mean anything?

H2Hers should just be happy that they can wield their best weapon in both hands :p, unlike dualwielders who can only the best weapon in one hand.

The only time it even becomes an issue is when comparing evasion builds on magian weapons and you realize other jobs can have +40 evasion and monks can have +20, which is exactly like 2 handers.

As far as damage/dly they are fine, as far as balancing stats they are a bit underwhelming.

Grips were introduced to try and counter balance the 2 handed update. SE nerfed two handed weapons due to people complaining they were too strong. Then SE realized they nerfed it too much and so introduced grips to correct the mistake rather than just reversing the update. However, the players who benefitted the most from the addition of grips were mages.

Seeing as how mnk weapons are not considered two handed weapons, they were excluded from the two handed nerfing, and so did not have any reason for a counter balance through grips.

That is the history of the 2handed nerf, and grip introduction as I remember it from 2006-2008.

You can't use grips with hand to hand because they don't count as 2handed weapons. They're teachnically dual-wielded 1-handed weapons - There's an invisible weapon in the offhand slot which is what gives you your second attack. As a result, you can't put anything there.

Hand to hand does not get the 2-handed attack/accuracy calculation, either. The game does not treat them as 2-handed weapons, simple as that.

2-handers were never "nerfed". They were initially considered weaker, so SE buffed them to 1 stat = 1 attack/accuracy. They decided that was too much and lowered it to 3 stat = 2 attack/accuracy. This is still above the original state. They buffed 2h, then they partially removed the buff.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You can't use grips with hand to hand because they don't count as 2handed weapons. They're teachnically dual-wielded 1-handed weapons - There's an invisible weapon in the offhand slot which is what gives you your second attack. As a result, you can't put anything there.

Hand to hand does not get the 2-handed attack/accuracy calculation, either. The game does not treat them as 2-handed weapons, simple as that.

2-handers were never "nerfed". They were initially considered weaker, so SE buffed them to 1 stat = 1 attack/accuracy. They decided that was too much and lowered it to 3 stat = 2 attack/accuracy. This is still above the original state. They buffed 2h, then they partially removed the buff.

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The 2007 2H buff also made 2H weapons partially ignore defense and level difference, about a month later SE realized how overpowered this was (a couple 2H melee could mow down Fafnir in less than a minute) so they scaled this back (although 2H still have an advantage here) and lowered ACC/ATT to 4:3 instead of 1:1.

Grips were introduced with the initial 2H buff not later.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

The 2007 2H buff also made 2H weapons partially ignore defense and level difference, about a month later SE realized how overpowered this was (a couple 2H melee could mow down Fafnir in less than a minute) so they scaled this back (although 2H still have an advantage here) and lowered ACC/ATT to 4:3 instead of 1:1.

Grips were introduced with the initial 2H buff not later.

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This!
grips were introduced when mnk was top DD then dual wielder and 2hander were "weak" DDs, adding them to mnks would have been stupid as it was to fix 2hander (they over fixed it and had to came a little back but thats another story)

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Originally Posted by hiko

This!
grips were introduced when mnk was top DD then dual wielder and 2hander were "weak" DDs, adding them to mnks would have been stupid as it was to fix 2hander (they over fixed it and had to came a little back but thats another story)

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And MNK is still top DD.

I always thought H2H weapons should just fill up both slots (one knuckle in each box).

I too noticed the taru Fomor with two different H2H but I know MNK is top DD but I know PUP isn't.

Thanks for your inputs.

PUP is perfectly fine. Their biggest issue post-Abyssea was a lack of an Automaton crit WS, and even that's getting fixed in a week.

Just as soon as I can wear black belt you can use grips.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

H2Hers should just be happy that they can wield their best weapon in both hands :p, unlike dualwielders who can only the best weapon in one hand.

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I see this differently.

1) if you use Spharai, for example, the triple proc is only on the main hand
2) on Final Heaven, as in howling fist and many mnk weapons skills, the off hand blow uses a lower ftp adjustment and is much lower damage.
3) the hades sainti +1 bonus of +9 acc applies on each attack, but it essentially is the same as a dual wielder having 2 weapons with +4.5 acc each, or one weapon with +9 and the other with zero. This makes h2h weapons look more powerful than single weapons that a DW uses, but it's clearly misleading.

In short, in some cases, you have a really good main hand weapon, with a vanilla off hand one, and in particular poor off hand on weapons skills. It would be great if the game treated the off hand AS IF it was the same weapon in both hands, but often times it doesn't.

While I think it's true that many of these decisions SE makes are designed around fear that mnks will be too strong, I wish I could see more logic in it than knee-jerk thinking:

1) h2h damage, delay, grips treated like dual wielding users
2) hasso, seigan treated like dual wielding users
3) /nin sub, DW enhancements NOT treated like dual wielding users
4) shield treated like dual wielding users
5) second weapon NOT treated like dual wielding users

1) Grips were introduced specifically for jobs who focused on two-handed (i.e. slow weapons) that were not able to take advantage of what I guess could be called the "discovery" of haste benefit. Heavy weapon-swinging jobs were at a huge disadvantage for a long time while the benefit from Dual Weild (which meant you were NIN, or /NIN using C weapons or something) completely overshadowed using your intended weapon. MNK did not suffer from this situation, because MNK has Martial Arts and has always had tons of access of haste.

2) It doesn't make any sense for you to be able to use grips on H2H weapons.

You guys do realize that they might make it where you can equip 2 different sets of weapons for H2H (like Yang on FFIV) and it would make you guys weaker.

There is a reason why they don't use the sub slot for MNK. Think of having to get 2 Verethragna Lv. 90s.