Mud Spikes, Wind Spikes, and Aqua Spikes

Seeing as we have spikes spells for all the other elements:
Blaze Spikes (Fire)
Ice Spikes (Ice) - Can cause Paralyze
Shock Spikes (Lightning) - Can cause Stun
Dread Spikes (Dark) - Damage taken becomes HP gained
Reprisal (Light) - Shield use increased

Why not add in Spikes spells for the remaining 3 elements?

Mud Spikes (Earth) - Can cause Slow
Wind Spikes (Wind) - Can cause Gravity or Silence (Silence might be overpowerful, so I offer gravity as an alternative as it is also wind based)
Aqua Spikes (Water) - Can cause Poison

The idea for these new spells is relatively simple and would be no more powerful than the current spikes spells. I've personally always found it silly that there weren't spells of these elements in spike format. While, every other spell type in the game generally does have at least one spell of each element.

As for what jobs that would be able to use them? Naturally, it would be Black Mage and Red Mage, like all the other original spikes spells (not dread spikes or reprisal which are drk and pld respectively).

Water Spikes is called Aquaviel
Earth Spikes is called Stoneskin
Wind Spikes is called Blink

Quote:

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Originally Posted by noodles355

Water Spikes is called Aquaviel
Earth Spikes is called Stoneskin
Wind Spikes is called Blink

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None of those deal damage to the enemy, thus are not spikes?

Thunder Fire and Ice can be seen as offensive spikes, Earth Water and Wind can be seen as defensive spikes.

You really think I didn't take them into consideration? I purposefully called the water version "Aqua Spikes" for a reason. Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? As it stands, saying stoneskin, aquaveil, and blink are the equivalent does in no way hinder the idea of adding actual spikes spells of those elements. Nor does it hinder adding fire, lightning, and ice based defensive spells... I simply didn't bother to think of those. We have both Phalanx and Reprisal, both light element based "spikes" spells, one deals damage, one does not, after all.

RDM doesn't need ***.

I'm saying the 6 spells Blaze Spikes, Shock Spikes, Ice Spikes, Aquaviel, Stoneskin and Blink form one group of elemental buff spells. Three offensive buff spells, three defensive buff spells.

The tone of your responses makes it seem like you are taking far too much offence than you should do to my reply. I never agreed or disagreed with you that three new spells should be implamented. I simply stated the fact that what you concider a group of 5 spike spells, can also be concidered a group of 8 elemental buff spells. I didn't even state a conclusion that one could draw from this fact, I mearly stated the fact it's self.

Quite why you took that as me trying to start an argument with you I really don't know. It can't be healthy jumping to negative conclusions at every available oppertunity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by noodles355

I'm saying the 6 spells Blaze Spikes, Shock Spikes, Ice Spikes, Aquaviel, Stoneskin and Blink form one group of elemental buff spells. Three offensive buff spells, three defensive buff spells.

The tone of your responses makes it seem like you are taking far too much offence than you should do to my reply. I never agreed or disagreed with you that three new spells should be implamented. I simply stated the fact that what you concider a group of 5 spike spells, can also be concidered a group of 8 elemental buff spells. I didn't even state a conclusion that one could draw from this fact, I mearly stated the fact it's self.

Quite why you took that as me trying to start an argument with you I really don't know. It can't be healthy jumping to negative conclusions at every available oppertunity.

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[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

So, now, you're merely trying to make me look the bad guy? Tone, really? That's where you're taking this? Responding with, yet again, another post that adds absolutely nothing, nor actually discusses the idea of adding the spikes spells does nothing to help your case.

Anyway, I simply stated the fact that you were wrong by providing that phalanx and reprisal comparison that proves that rule to be false.

I think some don't grasp the concept of "Spikes" as a general game term, not exclusively pertaining to FFXI's spike spells.

Spike terms in games, originated from items like Spike breastplate or spiked shield. Any time you tried to attack someone with such armor, you stood a decent chance of being impaled or injured by the spikes if they were to bash or tackle you. So in game terms, there is no such thing as a defensive "Spikes" unless it retaliates with damage in some way.

I don't think I would mind seeing new forms of spike spells, but I'm not sure they would be practical where many of the newer NM's have become increasingly resistant or immune to debuffs.

Actually it was relevant. The statement that Water Wind and Earth elements already have a spike version can lead to the conclusion that it would be out of cannon for SE to add 3 new spike spells.

And I don't believe your example of Phalanx is relevant. The protect and shell lines of spells are also Light Element. I don't think it's unrealistic to concider Phalanx, Shell and Protect as separate spells outside these 8 elemental spikes. You could base this purely on the animations of the spells.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.] In short: Why so serious? Relax.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

Actually it was relevant. The statement that Water Wind and Earth elements already have a spike version can lead to the conclusion that it would be out of cannon for SE to add 3 new spike spells.

And I don't believe your example of Phalanx is relevant. The protect and shell lines of spells are also Light Element. I don't think it's unrealistic to concider Phalanx, Shell and Protect as separate spells outside these 8 elemental spikes. You could base this purely on the animations of the spells.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.] In short: Why so serious? Relax.

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[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

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Originally Posted by Swords

I think some don't grasp the concept of "Spikes" as a general game term, not exclusively pertaining to FFXI's spike spells.

Spike terms in games, originated from items like Spike breastplate or spiked shield. Any time you tried to attack someone with such armor, you stood a decent chance of being impaled or injured by the spikes if they were to bash or tackle you. So in game terms, there is no such thing as a defensive "Spikes" unless it retaliates with damage in some way.

I don't think I would mind seeing new forms of spike spells, but I'm not sure they would be practical where many of the newer NM's have become increasingly resistant or immune to debuffs.

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Hmm, I won't deny it probably wouldn't be practical against those newer NMs. That's not to say the spells would be entirely impractical. There are other parts of the game. And yeah, they're not spikes if there's no retaliation, thats the definition of the word.

Any one have input regarding the wind spikes? Would silence be too much? Is gravity not enough? I can't personally think of another decent wind based enfeeble for them. If it was gravity, wind spikes would make a nice kiting buff for when gravity wears off. Also, what about the Aqua spikes? Poison was the only water based enfeeble I could think of. Am i forgetting some? Also unsure of how potent it should be. i.e. Poison 1 vs. Poison 2, etc.

it is not needed per say but i can see the logic augment to complete a spike list.

noodles355 your augment is not relevant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Swords

I think some don't grasp the concept of "Spikes" as a general game term, not exclusively pertaining to FFXI's spike spells.

Spike terms in games, originated from items like Spike breastplate or spiked shield. Any time you tried to attack someone with such armor, you stood a decent chance of being impaled or injured by the spikes if they were to bash or tackle you. So in game terms, there is no such thing as a defensive "Spikes" unless it retaliates with damage in some way.

I don't think I would mind seeing new forms of spike spells, but I'm not sure they would be practical where many of the newer NM's have become increasingly resistant or immune to debuffs.

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You appear to have missed where I stated that they could be concidered as eight elemental buff spells, and not as 5 spike spells. And it's a fair point because they can. They could be interpreted as either way. Interpreting them as the latter, 8 elmenental buff spells, would leave no room for three new spike spells.

@Zyeriis, I think stating that I don't believe there is logical space for the spells is in fact on topic and not irrelevant. It is an opinion relating to the topic at hand. It holds exactly as much weight as your opinion that there is room for them, when concidering the relevance of the replies: both are an opinion based on an interpretation of the grouping of a set of spells. If you wish to dismiss my view that there isn't space for them then you should equally dismiss your view that there is space for them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by noodles355

You appear to have missed where I stated that they "weren't five spike spells, but 8 elemental buff spells". That is a fair point. They could be interpreted as either way. Interpreting them as the latter, 8 elmenental buff spells, would leave no room for three new spike spells.

@Zyeriis, I think stating that I don't believe there is logical space for the spells is in fact on topic and not irrelevant. It is an opinion relating to the topic at hand. It holds exactly as much weight as your opinion that there is room for them, when concidering the relevance of the replies: both are an opinion based on an interpretation of the grouping of a set of spells. If you wish to dismiss my view that there isn't space for them then you should equally dismiss your view that there is space for them.

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No it is not a fair point and i think the phalanx point should killed your view, you also have pro and shell that is light based. there is no such thing as having too many buffs that is aliened with one element.

The OP's argument for including the spells is that "They would complete the set of 8 elemental spike spells". The counter argument I am making is "The 5 spike spells are part of a group of 8 elemental buff spells, which would leave no room for them in the group".
It's a purely RP based point.

As I stated, the grouping of the spells as either 5 spike spells or 8 elemental buff spells is purely speculation and opinion. Both are purely as valid as each other as they are both just opinions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Swords

I think some don't grasp the concept of "Spikes" as a general game term, not exclusively pertaining to FFXI's spike spells.

Spike terms in games, originated from items like Spike breastplate or spiked shield. Any time you tried to attack someone with such armor, you stood a decent chance of being impaled or injured by the spikes if they were to bash or tackle you. So in game terms, there is no such thing as a defensive "Spikes" unless it retaliates with damage in some way.

I don't think I would mind seeing new forms of spike spells, but I'm not sure they would be practical where many of the newer NM's have become increasingly resistant or immune to debuffs.

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like i said:
you also have pro and shell that is light based. there is no such thing as having too many buffs that is aliened with one element.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by noodles355

You appear to have missed where I stated that they could be concidered as eight elemental buff spells, and not as 5 spike spells. And it's a fair point because they can. They could be interpreted as either way. Interpreting them as the latter, 8 elmenental buff spells, would leave no room for three new spike spells.

@Zyeriis, I think stating that I don't believe there is logical space for the spells is in fact on topic and not irrelevant. It is an opinion relating to the topic at hand. It holds exactly as much weight as your opinion that there is room for them, when concidering the relevance of the replies: both are an opinion based on an interpretation of the grouping of a set of spells. If you wish to dismiss my view that there isn't space for them then you should equally dismiss your view that there is space for them.

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It doesn't matter how you put it. I've already proven that there is "room" for them with the phalanx/reprisal comparison. You bringing up protect/shell only goes further to prove it. It is irrelevant because there is no reason to not add them aside from your opinion on them fitting or not, which is in no way discussing the actual spells. I accurately surmised your point of view from the very first post you made. And as I've said before, I took it into consideration. "3 offensive spikes and 3 defensive spikes (not actually spikes)" in no way is a reason to not add them as that could just as easily be 6 offensive spikes and 6 defensive spikes (not actually spikes). Which, I remind you one last time, is the idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

It doesn't matter how you put it. I've already proven that there is "room" for them with the phalanx/reprisal comparison. You bringing up protect/shell only goes further to prove it. It is irrelevant because there is no reason to not add them aside from your opinion on them fitting or not, which in no way discussing the actual spells. I accurately surmised your point of view from the very first post you made. And as I've said before, I took it into consideration. "3 offensive spikes and 3 defensive spikes (not actually spikes)" in no way is a reason to not add them as that could just as easily be 6 offensive spikes and 6 defensive spikes (not actually spikes). Which, I remind you one last time, is the idea.

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I think I bought up the pro and shell thing but i can state more elemental aliened buffs if they like to kill their irrelevant view.

One could counter your argument by saying "Light Elemental defensive spells are an exception" due to Light element being used for spells that would otherwise have no elemental affinity. You could further argue that Reprisal is actually based off light magic through intent, whereas Phalanx, Shell and Protect are based off light magic because there is no "none" element for spells.

@Rambus, with such harsh dismissive replies such as "you are wrong" and "an irrelevant opinion" you are sounding hypocritical concidering your crusade for polite responses and constructive criticism. Is this a matter of "Do as I say, not as I do"? If you were to follow your own advice you would rephrase "you are wrong" with "I believe you are wrong for the following reasons" and "an irrelevant view" with "a view I disagree with".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by noodles355

One could counter your argument by saying "Light Elemental defensive spells are an exception" due to Light element being used for spells that would otherwise have no elemental affinity. You could further argue that Reprisal is actually based off light magic through intent, whereas Phalanx, Shell and Protect are based off light magic because there is no "none" element for spells.

@Rambus, with such harsh dismissive replies such as "you are wrong" and "an irrelevant opinion" you are sounding hypocritical concidering your crusade for polite responses and constructive criticism. Is this a matter of "Do as I say, not as I do"? If you were to follow your own advice you would rephrase "you are wrong" with "I believe you are wrong for the following reasons" and "an irrelevant view" with "a view I disagree with".

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Invisible, Sneak, Deodorize, are wind based.
Haste is wind based also. Where does this fit in? Is this another "exception" just because it doesn't fit in with what you are saying?
You can argue that those are different types of enhancing magic but, isn't that the point I'm trying to make?

(I won't deny the invis/sneak comparison is a bad one but the haste one isn't)

Alright, first off, I feel that noodles has a relevant argument. If you consider spikes as "defensive spells" then there is indeed one for each element. You bring up haste, sneak, invis, and deodorize, but these are not defensive spells. The first is an offensive augment, and the latter three are for stealth. I feel light is a general gray area simply because of the fact that it's all protective magic in the long run. Protect and shell lines, regens, phalanx, etc. With this analogy in mind I do feel that they have a strong argument in their favor.

However (and this is bolded so you don't start replying to just the first part; not saying you will but people with strong opinions tend to just immediately go after counter-views without reading the rest):

I do feel your argument has merit too. Why not add some more spikes? I could certainly see how they would be useful. At the same time though, I feel that added effects on all of them is unnecessary. Look at Blaze Spikes and Reprisal; both of these have no added effect on the enemy. They simply do damage as retaliation. Aqua Spikes with their Poison I could see; Earth Spikes inflicting slow might be a bit OP situationally, but for the most part I don't have anything against them. I feel that Wind Spikes is something that is more set to be just pure damage. So there is merit to your suggestions too, and maybe with a bit of tweaking they could be viable.

Now, this is gonna come off as attacking, and I apologize if it does, but that is not my intent. I feel that you are being overly aggressive and zealous about your point, to the point you are making sarcastic or blunt arguments. Everyone has their opinion, and just because they disagree with you does not mean that they're trying to beat you down. You've made several valid points, but I feel that the way in which you address them comes off badly. Take a moment to step back and calm down; maybe you two will find a compromise, or perhaps will find evidence that makes the other say "Okay, I see your point, it could indeed be valid."

This is a suggestions thread, guys. We make suggestion, we discuss which are plausible and not and why we feel that way, and if the Devs see something in it, they'll snap it right up. But let's keep it civil, yeah?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kensagaku

Alright, first off, I feel that noodles has a relevant argument. If you consider spikes as "defensive spells" then there is indeed one for each element. You bring up haste, sneak, invis, and deodorize, but these are not defensive spells. The first is an offensive augment, and the latter three are for stealth. I feel light is a general gray area simply because of the fact that it's all protective magic in the long run. Protect and shell lines, regens, phalanx, etc. With this analogy in mind I do feel that they have a strong argument in their favor.

However (and this is bolded so you don't start replying to just the first part; not saying you will but people with strong opinions tend to just immediately go after counter-views without reading the rest):

I do feel your argument has merit too. Why not add some more spikes? I could certainly see how they would be useful. At the same time though, I feel that added effects on all of them is unnecessary. Look at Blaze Spikes and Reprisal; both of these have no added effect on the enemy. They simply do damage as retaliation. Aqua Spikes with their Poison I could see; Earth Spikes inflicting slow might be a bit OP situationally, but for the most part I don't have anything against them. I feel that Wind Spikes is something that is more set to be just pure damage. So there is merit to your suggestions too, and maybe with a bit of tweaking they could be viable.

Now, this is gonna come off as attacking, and I apologize if it does, but that is not my intent. I feel that you are being overly aggressive and zealous about your point, to the point you are making sarcastic or blunt arguments. Everyone has their opinion, and just because they disagree with you does not mean that they're trying to beat you down. You've made several valid points, but I feel that the way in which you address them comes off badly. Take a moment to step back and calm down; maybe you two will find a compromise, or perhaps will find evidence that makes the other say "Okay, I see your point, it could indeed be valid."

This is a suggestions thread, guys. We make suggestion, we discuss which are plausible and not and why we feel that way, and if the Devs see something in it, they'll snap it right up. But let's keep it civil, yeah?

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Not going to argue with you about how I responded. First response from other person I viewed and still view as rude and I responded in kind. That's not going to change (the viewed as a blatantly rude knock down response part is not going to change).

Blaze Spikes is the first spikes spell, so I thought it was a legitimate enough reason to it not having anything other damage to it. That being said, these higher level spikes should have more to them or do good chunks of damage. The problem is, the damage would have to be significant to showcase their individuality, and thats where I feel they could truly become overpowered. The status effects are luck based in the end, so ultimately less prone to abuse. As for reprisal, it does in fact do more than just damage the enemy. It increases shield usage (like a shield skill+ trait) in a significant manner.

I've reviewed the argument about the wind spikes and came up with an alternative idea. However, this may sound potentially overpowered as well. Since haste is wind based, why not add a self-target haste proc from enemy attacks to wind spikes instead? This would make wind spikes wholly unique in that it would result in a buff rather than a debuff. The same can be said for mud/stone spikes adding stoneskin (much like some NMs who gather stoneskin based upon how much damage is dealt to them when they do something). I wouldn't do this for water spikes + aquaveil as that just sounds way too weak and would rather stick with the poison idea.

I am going to slightly retract my statement that noodle was being completely non-constructive as it did spark this alternative idea, to tie them in with the other enhancing magics of the same element.

As for the haste argument about it being another wind based defensive magic. It still is, it just has offensive boosts as well. It does speed up recast timers mind you, which can be used for self-preservation just like stoneskin and blink and even more so, aquaveil, which affects spell interruption.

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

Invisible, Sneak, Deodorize, are wind based.
Haste is wind based also. Where does this fit in? Is this another "exception" just because it doesn't fit in with what you are saying?
You can argue that those are different types of enhancing magic but, isn't that the point I'm trying to make?

(I won't deny the invis/sneak comparison is a bad one but the haste one isn't)

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agreed she is molding information to suit her agurment, and i do not like that. It is a false view and she is trying to say anything so she is not "wrong"

her saying light is a "no element", are you joking? i guess a light skillchain or a trasfixion skillchain has no element:

Light:
Protect
Protect II
Protect III
Protect IV
Protect V
protectra
protectra II
protectra III
protectra IV
protectra V
Shell
Shell II
Shell III
Shell IV
Shell V
shellra
shellra II
shellra III
shellra IV
shellra V
Barblindra
barblind
Barsleep
Barsleepra
Phalanx
Phalanx II
regen
regen II
regen III
Regen IV
refresh
Refersh II
Reraise
Reraise II
Reraise III
Seline coat
Army's paeon
Army's paeon II
Army's paeon III
Army's paeon IV
Army's paeon V
Army's paeon VI
Mage's ballad
Mage's ballad II
Mage's ballad III
Fowl Aubade
Shining Fantasia
Warding round
Enchamting Etude
Dark carol
Goddess's Hymnus
Bewitching Etude
Auspice
Aurorastorm
Battery charge
Regeneration
Enlight
Boost-CHR
Foe Sirvente
Adverturer's dirge
Reprisal
Animus Minuo
Adloquium
Gain-CHR
Myoshu: Ichi

Dark:
Light Carol
Dread spikes
Voidstorm
Klimaform
Magic Barrier
Animus Augeo
Endark

Fire:
Barblizzard
Barblizzara
Barparalyze
Barparalyzra
Enfire
Enfire II
Blaze spikes
Valor Minuet
Valor Minuet II
Valor Minuet III
Valor Minuet IV
Valor Minuet V
Goblin Gavotte
Sinewy Etude
Herculean etude
Ice carol
firestorm
Triumphant roar
Fantod

Earth:
Stoneskin
Barthunder
Barthundra
Enstone
Enstone II
Metallic body
Cocoon
Warm-up
Diamondhide
Knight's mine....

ok i am tried of doing this, look there is like 6 forms of stoneskin (maybe there is 7 since rampart conflits with stoneskin *something Conflicted with it after update and i do not remember what it was and if it was changed, i think it is stoneskin*), 3 haste, 1 blaze spikes, 2 forms of shock spikes, 2 forms of ice spikes so how can you sit here and say aquaviel counts for water midgration ( when you have water based bars and bard buffs) earth "spikes" is stoneskin when there is 6 forms of it, and wind covering blink when there is 4 forms of blink and 2 utsusemis that are wind, 3 forms of haste, then you have invisible, sneak, deodorize, feather barrier, mazurka, and other such buffs you have not thought about because it does not suit your view?

there is no such thing as one element having too meny buffs so it cannot fit

For what it's worth, I share noodles' sentiment of Blaze Spikes, Ice Spikes, Shock Spikes, and Aquaveil, Blink, and Stoneskin were parts of similar cycles of spells, generally available between levels 10-30 to Black Mages and White Mages. If one were to "complete the Spikes line," then I don't see any reason why the Aqua/Blink/Skin line shouldn't be "completed" in kind.

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Originally Posted by Tamarsamar

For what it's worth, I share noodles' sentiment of Blaze Spikes, Ice Spikes, Shock Spikes, and Aquaveil, Blink, and Stoneskin were parts of similar cycles of spells, generally available between levels 10-30 to Black Mages and White Mages. If one were to "complete the Spikes line," then I don't see any reason why the Aqua/Blink/Skin line shouldn't be "completed" in kind.

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because you are forgetting there is more forms of said buffs then others, also there is more elements that exists for buffs then you are accounting for. /point to post above you.

did you know there is that meny forms of blink? stoneskin? more then one ice and shock spike spell but only one blaze spikes?

If you would stop treating noodles and I like idiots for a moment, you would see that we're not really contesting your points.

Yes, there are many different buffs across many different elements, and even multiple ways of getting the same effect provided by spells of different names (we can mostly thank Blue Mage and Summoner for this), but what do they have to do with the Blaze/Ice/Shock Spikes line of spells and the Aquaveil/Blink/Stoneskin line of spells specifically? (It is worth mentioning that I am referring specifically to the spells of those names, and not the status effects that they provide which they are named for.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tamarsamar

For what it's worth, I share noodles' sentiment of Blaze Spikes, Ice Spikes, Shock Spikes, and Aquaveil, Blink, and Stoneskin were parts of similar cycles of spells, generally available between levels 10-30 to Black Mages and White Mages. If one were to "complete the Spikes line," then I don't see any reason why the Aqua/Blink/Skin line shouldn't be "completed" in kind.

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I've said the last line of this before. They could very well complete the defensive (not actually "spikes") side as well. Hmm, all that remains really is to figure out an idea for each of those 3 elements: fire, lightning, and ice.

I guess I'll take a stab at it but be warned that this is an off the top of my head idea stream.

Ice could have a spell similar to Blink, that procs randomly and only a set number of times (perhaps once). The effect would be Reflect, where a spell casted upon the player gets returned in kind automatically (though randomly) to the enemy that casted it. Dangers here are if the enemy casts an AoE spell, you may wind up surrounded by multiple enemies, caution is urged when using this.

Lightning could be a Potency spell (Critical hit Rate +) or Faith spell (Increases magical attack).

Fire could be a Bravery Spell (Attack Boost Spell) or Morale spell (slightly boosts all stats for a short amount of time).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by noodles355

Water Spikes is called Aquaviel
Earth Spikes is called Stoneskin
Wind Spikes is called Blink

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This looks rude to me, stating opion as fact.

spikes overide one anther, you cannot have reprisal and ice spikes for exmaple

but you can have aquaviel, stoneskin, and a spike effect spell.

there is 5 or 6 different forms of stoneskin, depending how you view them.

there is 4-6 different blinks ( ustu and blink are different "blinks") and conflit with 3 eye

there are other damage migration buffs for said elements that does not conflict with spike type spells

1 type of fire spikes
3 types of icespikes (forgot shiva in my last post)
2 forms of shock spikes

and all forms of said spikes conflict with each other where the other buffs do not.

Therefore it is an unfounded option.

I like where these ideas are going. Sometimes it takes a little disagreement to come up with some truly unique and interesting thoughts, and look where this thread has gone! We've got ideas for new offensive and defensive buffs coming along. This is truly coming along well.

To point out the ideas that I've liked/come up with myself, using some text from the existing spells:

Offensive Spikes
Aqua Spikes - Covers you with magical water spikes. Enemies that hit you take water damage. Additional Effect: May inflict Poison on attacking enemies.

Gale Spikes - Covers you with magical wind spikes. Enemies that hit you take wind damage.
~Note: This would be comparable to the other spikes as blaze spikes is to ice/shock spikes at the moment; higher overall damage due to lack of additional effect.

Terra Spikes - Covers you with magical earth spikes. Enemies that hit you take earth damage. Additional Effect: May inflict Slow on attacking enemies.

Defensive Spells
Reflect (Ice-based): Creates ice mirrors that each reflect a single spell directed at you.
~Notes: The user would still take damage; otherwise this would just be a buffed Blink because blink can absorb single-targets. Would also create only two ice mirrors, identical to blink. AoEs would be reflected in an AoE around the target, which means that you'd have to be very careful with use.

Bravery (Fire-Based): Increases the attack power of one target.
~Notes: Would be affected by Accession like any other spell, making it more useful with a /SCH subjob. Would be a smaller boost based on the user's Enhancing Magic Skill but still useful.

Faith (Thunder-Based): Increases the magical attack power of one target.
~Notes: Think of this as the magical version of Bravery, adding perhaps a small amount of MAB based on the user's Enhancing Magic.


How do these ideas sound?

reflect in past FF is a spell when magic is casted on you it is reflected, this means all harmful and support magic and a good way around that was to cast reflect on the mob so you can bounce cures to yourself lol.

if you have to take damage to repel the magic back to caster that is more the lines of "magic counter". this is a trait in FFIX and this is what i called what carbi do. I never understood people trying to label it reflect.

Reason I am stating this is because I am considered about the name and what it does vs past FF games. making it like past FF games would make it imbalanced unless it was long recast with only able to do it with attack spell.

Your attack buff I do not like, the reason is for my magic list post I was making. There is A LOT of fire buffing spells that buff attack and I even think you can call berserk fire support too (mighty strikes, berserk, warcry, restraint, last resort are red in menu). There is also SCH firestorm with stormsurge merits to grant STR.

If you where going to buff magic attack it would have to be ice. There is a lot of ice based buffing that buffs magic attack ( memento mori, ice staff) INT is also considered the “ice” stat. ( see gear, sage etude, and hailstorm)

Hmm, why didn't I think of the name Gale Spikes... /facepalm, it's so obvious that's what I should've named them now.

I guess I can kind of see what your idea was for them now as being a higher level version of blaze spikes but, i still have to question whether they will either A) not be worth it because they offer no status effect or B) be too powerful. I'm going to re-iterate the haste proc idea. The haste wouldn't be as potent as a normal haste spell, maybe +1% or +2% haste, nor would they stack, the actual spell "haste" would override this haste as it is far more potent. Then what possible benefits does it have? Well, if it procs, it would override slow if you were currently inflicted with it. Perhaps a +1% Fast cast could be tacked on as well (lost if it gets an override from normal haste spell). I can see it's uses against things that cause AoE debuffs and stacks them. Gale Spikes would be useful to have up if you get hit with slow and/or get silenced. Stack Gale Spikes with /SCH and you have a mild hastega that has a slight fast cast boost as well. Not forgetting that the spikes themselves also deal damage on top of possible haste/fast cast proc. The idea is a bit complex so I won't go further on it right now. Also, I still want to talk about gravity/silence procs as possible for it as well.

The rest sounds alright. You caught my idea on the Reflect spell nicely (I forgot to put the "you still take damage" part in my original post).

Edit: Though Rambus, while a tad hypocritical when criticizing the faith/bravery things ("i don't want bravery to be the fire spell because all these other jobs have fire-based atk+ stuff and i don't want faith to be lightning based because it should be INT/ice based like other abilities that boost magic atk." <-- this confuses me so much) I do agree a bit. Lightning is the DEX stat that is why I thought of Potency (Critical Hit Rate +). As for fire, it was a tough to come up with anything unique. So I naturally went with attack +. This could also be regain but I didn't want to step on the toes of SCH and COR, let alone break the game by over-regain spam.

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

Hmm, why didn't I think of the name Gale Spikes... /facepalm, it's so obvious that's what I should've named them now.

I guess I can kind of see what your idea was for them now as being a higher level version of blaze spikes but, i still have to question whether they will either A) not be worth it because they offer no status effect or B) be too powerful. I'm going to re-iterate the haste proc idea. The haste wouldn't be as potent as a normal haste spell, maybe +1% or +2% haste, nor would they stack, the actual spell "haste" would override this haste as it is far more potent. Then what possible benefits does it have? Well, if it procs, it would override slow if you were currently inflicted with it. Perhaps a +1% Fast cast could be tacked on as well (lost if it gets an override from normal haste spell). I can see it's uses against things that cause AoE debuffs and stacks them. Gale Spikes would be useful to have up if you get hit with slow and/or get silenced. Stack Gale Spikes with /SCH and you have a mild hastega that has a slight fast cast boost as well. The idea is a bit complex so I won't go further on it right now. Also, I still want to talk about gravity/silence procs as possible for it as well.

The rest sounds alright. You caught my idea on the Reflect spell nicely (I forgot to put the "you still take damage" part in my original post).

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Can make it some haste effect so it is easier for jobs to hit haste/delay cap that are harder to do so, though I am not sure if that manaic is made to ballance out classes (like it should be easier to swing daggers vs a huge 2 handed sword)

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

Edit: Though Rambus, while a tad hypocritical when criticizing the faith/bravery things ("i don't want bravery to be the fire spell because all these other jobs have fire-based atk+ stuff and i don't want faith to be lightning based because it should be INT/ice based like other abilities that boost magic atk." <-- this confuses me so much) I do agree a bit. Lightning is the DEX stat that is why I thought of Potency (Critical Hit Rate +). As for fire, it was a tough to come up with anything unique. So I naturally went with attack +. This could also be regain but I didn't want to step on the toes of SCH and COR, let alone break the game by over-regain spam.

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I was saying there is no need for more attack buffs because there is a lot already.

your magic attack buff should be ice, I think it should follow the logic of the game, thats it. (well his idea but you are agreeing with it)

purple/thunder is for DEX/ACC/crit hit rate and so on for stats
(point blood rage to show the crt hit rate, and that is reflected in what dex does anyway, dex is acc and crits). that is why acc songs, agressor and so on are purple / thunder.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

reflect in past FF is a spell when magic is casted on you it is reflected, this means all harmful and support magic and a good way around that was to cast reflect on the mob so you can bounce cures to yourself lol.

if you have to take damage to repel the magic back to caster that is more the lines of "magic counter". this is a trait in FFIX and this is what i called what carbi do. I never understood people trying to label it reflect.

Reason I am stating this is because I am considered about the name and what it does vs past FF games. making it like past FF games would make it imbalanced unless it was long recast with only able to do it with attack spell.

Your attack buff I do not like, the reason is for my magic list post I was making. There is A LOT of fire buffing spells that buff attack and I even think you can call berserk fire support too (mighty strikes, berserk, warcry, restraint, last resort are red in menu). There is also SCH firestorm with stormsurge merits to grant STR.

If you where going to buff magic attack it would have to be ice. There is a lot of ice based buffing that buffs magic attack ( memento mori, ice staff) INT is also considered the “ice” stat. ( see gear, sage etude, and hailstorm)

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You're contradicting yourself. You don't like fire as an attack buff but at the same time you don't like faith because it's not ice like most ice spells. Pick one or the other. x_x;

That being said, I could see the Reflect spell being more of a thunder spell, and need to think of another name for it, but I could see it working. And then we could make Faith as an ice spell.

Maybe something like this?

Resonance (Thunder-based) - Creates an aura that reflects a copy of an enemy's spell back at them.
~Notes: With this, the user would still take damage, but reflect the spell as well. This would give two "uses" of the aura before it wears, and it likely would have to have a higher MP cost/cooldown/casting time due to being able to damage the enemy with their own spells. And I think this should be limited to elemental/enfeebling magic; being able to reflect spells like Death seems a bit overpowered, as does being able to reflect magical TP moves.

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Originally Posted by Kensagaku

You're contradicting yourself. You don't like fire as an attack buff but at the same time you don't like faith because it's not ice like most ice spells. Pick one or the other. x_x;

That being said, I could see the Reflect spell being more of a thunder spell, and need to think of another name for it, but I could see it working. And then we could make Faith as an ice spell.

Maybe something like this?

Resonance (Thunder-based) - Creates an aura that reflects a copy of an enemy's spell back at them.
~Notes: With this, the user would still take damage, but reflect the spell as well. This would give two "uses" of the aura before it wears, and it likely would have to have a higher MP cost/cooldown/casting time due to being able to damage the enemy with their own spells. And I think this should be limited to elemental/enfeebling magic; being able to reflect spells like Death seems a bit overpowered, as does being able to reflect magical TP moves.

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fire should be attack, I did not say otherwise , I said I DO NOT WANT more attack support. ( I think there is enough attack support) in the game already.

I think ill harm bard, cor, JA (therefor job balances) too much.

I know this may hurt your logic of adding more different elemental buffs but i think spells like reflect should be light.

I am fine with adding more magic attack support though, my only point for that it should be ice, not thunder.

You do not want. This does not mean it cannot be implemented, nor could it be reasonably useful. Tell me what other buffs you'd find useful from Fire-type spells then? Regain? That would fall under light, as shown with Refresh/Regen, the other restorative over-time spells.

Offer a suggestion if you're going to argue an idea.

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Originally Posted by Kensagaku

You do not want. This does not mean it cannot be implemented, nor could it be reasonably useful. Tell me what other buffs you'd find useful from Fire-type spells then? Regain? That would fall under light, as shown with Refresh/Regen, the other restorative over-time spells.

Offer a suggestion if you're going to argue an idea.

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what will you have a cor do if attack cap easy?
bard will be march only.
why have berserk if attack cap easy?
why have hasso if attack cap/ haste cap?

I said why I do not like it, i think ill cause too much balance issues. likewise the def down support as well.

regain is in the game, and is light, you are correct.

There's not really a "cap" on attack in the long run. The only caps we've hit are the ones in Abyssea, and even at 999 Attack that's not really capped, iirc, that's just as high as the display goes despite there being a higher number.

Technically there would be even more reason to include the other jobs if you can hit the upper areas of attack and still make it useful.

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Originally Posted by Kensagaku

There's not really a "cap" on attack in the long run. The only caps we've hit are the ones in Abyssea, and even at 999 Attack that's not really capped, iirc, that's just as high as the display goes despite there being a higher number.

Technically there would be even more reason to include the other jobs if you can hit the upper areas of attack and still make it useful.

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there is a point where attack does you nothing, I do not mean 999.

I do admit I lack math knowledge to explain it, but I know it exists from watching other people explain it and punching it out.

you need X amount attack over def rating on the mob that corresponds to weapon rank with some str amount.

if im wrong fine have at it with mroe attack buffs, I just think from what I know ill cause too much balance issues.

The attack/fire support (that boosts attack) in the game already:

Valor Minuet
Valor Minuet II
Valor Minuet III
Valor Minuet IV
Valor Minuet V
Sinewy etude (str)
Herculean etude (str)
firestorm (str)
Triumphant roar
Fantod (attack and magic attack, acts like boost)
last resort
berserk
warcry
restriant
boost

this is the list of top my head that supports attack and fire type I guess you can add chaos roll too (has firely look to it when you roll it) but I do not see them colored in my menu, but adds attack never-the-less

Having Bravery wouldn't affect attack caps if it could be overridden by things such as berserk. There are multiple attack buffs yes, Bravery would merely be an additional option to one such buff, that can override or be overridden by another group of attack + buffs. Same goes for the haste proc from gale spikes idea.

As for arguing that specific spells belong on a specific element. I will remind you that there are spells that cause the same status effect but the spells themselves are based in different elements. For example: Flash(Light) and Blind(Dark). Yes they can both be on the enemy at the same time but, they both cause the status effect: Blind. Another example: Cocoon and Reactor Cool, these are both defense boosting blue mage spells. Reactor cool, contrary to it's defense boosting nature is ice based while cocoon is earth based like a normal defense boosting spell.

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

Having Bravery wouldn't affect attack caps if it could be overridden by things such as berserk. There are multiple attack buffs yes, Bravery would merely be an additional option to one such buff, that can override or be overridden by another group of attack + buffs. Same goes for the haste proc from gale spikes idea.

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hmm I like it better now, plus ill help rngs hit it easier, no one really buffs rng and it is so much harder for them to hit cap.

as for the other part, the element of the spell does not reflect the enfeebling part.

if you are blu you know this too well, when you cast a hybird spell ( damage of different element vs the enfeebling you have 2 checks). Take mind blast, if a mob is thunder immune it may take crap damage from mind blast but it can still be hit with paralysis if it is not immune to ice.

I cannot quote what the blind from flash is because you can have both blind effects on you and flash blind is a huge hit to acc.

Reactor cool main element is for ice spikes, the def up is not good and you can override it with cocoon, SE does not show duel element spells lol.

still everything in the game is reflected on it's base element in some form or anther, can't really think of any expections.