Suggestions for Rebalancing End-game Content

It's a well established proposition (at least on the English forums) that end game content is horrible broken at least with regards to melee DD. It is also well established (again by the English playerbase) that the issue is endgame reliance on AoE attacks that cannot be blocked and are capable of instantly killing all non-tank DDS with one or AoE enfeebles that apply crippling affects that cause death or are unremovable. I think it would be possible (though admittedly time consuming) to take the current content and make it more melee friendly. Here are some suggestions.

1. Buff HP across the board. Won't fix everything but it's cheap and easy to implement (and probably well overdue.)

2. Limit a monsters TP selection. The problem most content is that mobs select tp attacks at random. That means it is impossible for a party to know whether the monsters next attack will be the AoE attack of insta-death or something that is manageable. Again there are options for how to handle tp attack selection:

a. Make most AoE, high damage attacks dependent on a condition precedent (like how Wyrms only use spike flail when hate is drawn by a player attacking from behind). If attacks can be avoided through game play, it at least makes bad game play the reason for a party wipe and not bad game design.

b. Routines. Ok, so I hated the FFXIV battle system because of this, but in FFXI terms it could be useful. If players have advanced warning that an AoE is about to occur, because the monster followed a specific pattern of TP attacks, then melee players could be out of range when the attacks are used.

c. Increased prep time for TP attacks. If players have long enough to respond from the time the monster initiates a tp attack to the the time it is used, then the players have a chance to run out of range.

d. Increase the instances of proc and lock. Give players the chance to disable certain attacks from being used by procing a weakness. Weakness procs should not last the entire fight, but the system should provide some notice when the proc wears off. That way a party that is paying attention can lock out the most deadly abilities.

3. Make the most debilitating debuffs single target.

4. Or make AoE debuffs avoidable via one of the methods mentioned above (see 2a-d).

5. Remove debuff auras that cause amnesia, death, silence, etc., unless the aura is of a very short duration and that debuff wears off by moving out of range.

6. Increase the potency of Stoneskin and other methods of damage absorbtion so that the amounts absorbed are actually life saving.

7. Add more means of debuffing, enfeebling monsters that directly correlate with the survivability of TP moves.

a. Amnesia!

b. A spell that increases the readying time for TP moves in a method similar to Addle's effect on spell casting.

c. More, stackable, methods for signficantly decreasing attack power and accuracy of monsters.

These are just a few suggestions and I'd welcome more. Please try to avoid suggestions which decrease the abilities of other jobs though. The purpose is to make every job playable not your job playable at another jobs expense.

I would support this. The current situation leaves out most jobs. I'd also really like to see melee primary classes (DRK, BST, WAR, MNK, PUP, THF etc) get a minimum +100 acc boost too to allow more players to actually participate in content.

Right now a lot of folks are in a catch 22 where their gear doesn't have enough acc for them to get gear with more acc on it... I think just 100 more base acc would push players up just enough to actually make the gear climb sensible. And it would allow folks with better gear to perhaps choose some different stuff vs "whatever has the most acc on it" which is actually a very boring thing to be forced to choose every time.

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Originally Posted by Olor

I would support this. The current situation leaves out most jobs. I'd also really like to see melee primary classes (DRK, BST, WAR, MNK, PUP, THF etc) get a minimum +100 acc boost too to allow more players to actually participate in content.

Right now a lot of folks are in a catch 22 where their gear doesn't have enough acc for them to get gear with more acc on it... I think just 100 more base acc would push players up just enough to actually make the gear climb sensible. And it would allow folks with better gear to perhaps choose some different stuff vs "whatever has the most acc on it" which is actually a very boring thing to be forced to choose every time.

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I don't know about heavy class armor jobs because I refuse to play them but I know that for light armor melee jobs there's already a perfectly reasonable progression of accuracy gear. The rawhide armor from abyssea zitah does not require crazy high accuracy to obtain and gives a significant starting boost to acc. From there's it's probably reasonable to attempt t1 NMs in reisenjima for herc gear and more acc. I don't think it's accuracy that's keeping dedicated melee from playing melee jobs, it's more about the things that Lonnan listed (nasty aoe's, bs auras, quickness of tp moves).

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Originally Posted by Hoshi

I don't know about heavy class armor jobs because I refuse to play them but I know that for light armor melee jobs there's already a perfectly reasonable progression of accuracy gear. The rawhide armor from abyssea zitah does not require crazy high accuracy to obtain and gives a significant starting boost to acc. From there's it's probably reasonable to attempt t1 NMs in reisenjima for herc gear and more acc. I don't think it's accuracy that's keeping dedicated melee from playing melee jobs, it's more about the things that Lonnan listed (nasty aoe's, bs auras, quickness of tp moves).

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Even with that accuracy vs 135 content can be really poor for the majority of jobs. I was doing Behemoth UNM yesterday and in my full acc set I was roughly 30% lower in accuracy than the BLU. I've since fixed the big hole of my set (rawhide vest -> adhemar) but I'm still extremely far behind other jobs, specifically BLU. An LS mate asked me what my Acc was, before any buffs I'm at 1194 accuracy, with max accuracy gifts, going ramuh+1's x2, adhemar body/hands path A, herc feet with acc+35 augment, etc. An LS mate says he's at 1350 accuracy with sushi, so around 1250 without sushi. And he was in his low acc TP set, on BLU. This means a BLU can equip his DA/TA/STP sets and have more accuracy than just about all of the other melee.

So OP says most melee need an accuracy+100 boost, I agree. But BLU needs to somehow not get it.

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Originally Posted by Eaglestrike

Even with that accuracy vs 135 content can be really poor for the majority of jobs. I was doing Behemoth UNM yesterday and in my full acc set I was roughly 30% lower in accuracy than the BLU. I've since fixed the big hole of my set (rawhide vest -> adhemar) but I'm still extremely far behind other jobs, specifically BLU. An LS mate asked me what my Acc was, before any buffs I'm at 1194 accuracy, with max accuracy gifts, going ramuh+1's x2, adhemar body/hands path A, herc feet with acc+35 augment, etc. An LS mate says he's at 1350 accuracy with sushi, so around 1250 without sushi. And he was in his low acc TP set, on BLU. This means a BLU can equip his DA/TA/STP sets and have more accuracy than just about all of the other melee.

So OP says most melee need an accuracy+100 boost, I agree. But BLU needs to somehow not get it.

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There's still a pretty big chunk of gear difference there. Not only do they have +10~72 Acc depending on how many Acc Bonus traits they set and Gifts (though setting them all is silly, we have too many other major boosts to waste slots), but then you've got to look at all of the slots. Looking at my own gear in my standard no-acc aim set, I use:

Colada (Acc+20 Aug, 40 Acc Total) / Nibiru Blade (Path A, 27 Acc total) / X / Ginsen (for the STP, but Acc+5)
Adhemar Bonnet (No Acc) / Asperity Necklace (No Acc) / Brutal Earring (No Acc) / Cessance Earring (Acc+6)
Adhemar Jacket (+25 Acc) / Herc Hands (+33 Acc Aug, so +45 total) / Petrov Ring (No Acc) / Epona's Ring (No Acc)
Bleating Mantle (No Acc) / Shetal Stone (No Acc) / Samnuha Tights (+15 Acc) / Herc Feet (+30 Acc Aug, so ~40 Total)

This puts me at around 1150ish Acc or so between the acc in my gear and the high DEX light armor gets. Best part? Aside from weapons, your THF can get all of those, and get similar tools. Skinflayer/Taming Sari, or Odium for slightly lower options. I'm sure there are better alternatives too. Did you check the BLU, while you are at it? To see if he had top-tier gear? Because I can change out a lot of the listed options above and jump my Acc even higher. Honed Tathlum/Falcon Eye, Whirlpool Mask, Combatant's Torque, Mars/Patricius Rings (I lack Ramuh+1s), Letalis Mantle, Anguinus or Hurch'lan Sash, my aug'd Herc legs... etc. It's not really just a BLU thing, as the most they're getting from traits is an extra 35 or so Acc. Most of the gear a BLU can equip, you can equip too. So don't be so quick to shoot 'em down. >.>

On a different forum someone pointed out how ridiculous tp feed is. Changing that could be one way to lower the amount of tp move spam. They could bring back subtle blow by uncapping it, and maybe also adjusting buffs that effect it by making Auspice target party member instead of self, increasing the duration of Conspirator to 5 minutes, and having Myoshu: Ichi be AoE.

I think there's more problems than just accuracy and survivability. Not that they aren't important ones.

HP scaling on monsters is very severe which discourages including people.
BLU and BST AoE damage is very high and doesn't need as much support. Why would you bring a melee DD who can only single target and requires a tank/healer/2x support and who will probably die anyway and do less damage.
Magic Bursting is so strong. There's no reason to bring 2-3 DDs when a SCH can skillchain solo without missing. Other than that only really a SAM or DNC can self skillchain reliably. I think Magic burst potency needs to be tied to the number of unique participants of the skillchain or something.

I'm interested to see how the February update changes things. If done wrong it could end up a huge buff for BLU. A Decent buff for SAM and DNC, and no effect on other melee classes

Given the focus on skillchain and magic burst damage these days, maybe something ought to be done about how skillchains are executed. TP gain is so easy these days, that to just have some melee sit at 1000+ because they will interupt the current skillchain and magic burst seems like a big factor in why having more melee, compared to another job, is redundent. Maybe WSing out of turn shouldn't prevent a magic burst, for example.

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Other than that only really a SAM or DNC can self skillchain reliably.

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I have heard RNG/SAM can actually skillchain pretty reliably, which is something I'm working on right now. Granted, RNG still has to stand in range of some of the more debilitating AoE attacks, but it's something.

Someone also suggested lowering the minimum time before the next skillchain can happen.

You can't rebalance something that has NEVER been balanced. Square has NO CLUE what balance actually means.

I just wanna bump this and say:

It's realllllly hard to accomplish things with newer people, shout groups etc. impossibly difficult. I'm not even talking about tough content. New people just get no help, no introduction, no clues what to do. Just thrown in the deep end.

I just wanted to vent, since I started a new account and trying to do things with new people.

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Originally Posted by Kensagaku

There's still a pretty big chunk of gear difference there. Not only do they have +10~72 Acc depending on how many Acc Bonus traits they set and Gifts (though setting them all is silly, we have too many other major boosts to waste slots), but then you've got to look at all of the slots. Looking at my own gear in my standard no-acc aim set, I use:

Colada (Acc+20 Aug, 40 Acc Total) / Nibiru Blade (Path A, 27 Acc total) / X / Ginsen (for the STP, but Acc+5)
Adhemar Bonnet (No Acc) / Asperity Necklace (No Acc) / Brutal Earring (No Acc) / Cessance Earring (Acc+6)
Adhemar Jacket (+25 Acc) / Herc Hands (+33 Acc Aug, so +45 total) / Petrov Ring (No Acc) / Epona's Ring (No Acc)
Bleating Mantle (No Acc) / Shetal Stone (No Acc) / Samnuha Tights (+15 Acc) / Herc Feet (+30 Acc Aug, so ~40 Total)

This puts me at around 1150ish Acc or so between the acc in my gear and the high DEX light armor gets. Best part? Aside from weapons, your THF can get all of those, and get similar tools. Skinflayer/Taming Sari, or Odium for slightly lower options. I'm sure there are better alternatives too. Did you check the BLU, while you are at it? To see if he had top-tier gear? Because I can change out a lot of the listed options above and jump my Acc even higher. Honed Tathlum/Falcon Eye, Whirlpool Mask, Combatant's Torque, Mars/Patricius Rings (I lack Ramuh+1s), Letalis Mantle, Anguinus or Hurch'lan Sash, my aug'd Herc legs... etc. It's not really just a BLU thing, as the most they're getting from traits is an extra 35 or so Acc. Most of the gear a BLU can equip, you can equip too. So don't be so quick to shoot 'em down. >.>

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I completely and totally outgear you in my max acc set and I'm less than 50 above you, tossing accuracy into every single slot I can acquire. BLU can and does utilize Accuracy Bonus 4, which is 48 accuracy above others, and can equip the carmine set, which is both loaded with accuracy, and the easiest 119 abjuration set to HQ in the game. Being able to access a trait only open to ranger and two of the melee jobs, and the melee jobs not as high a tier, while also utilizing Store TP V, DW4~, etc. and having access to more gear than most other jobs (they can equip medium armor to mage armor) gives them significant bonus' over other jobs. High tier BLU's blow every other DD out of the water right now, and there needs to be a way for other melee to get caught up.

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Originally Posted by Vae

I just wanna bump this and say:

It's realllllly hard to accomplish things with newer people, shout groups etc. impossibly difficult. I'm not even talking about tough content. New people just get no help, no introduction, no clues what to do. Just thrown in the deep end.

I just wanted to vent, since I started a new account and trying to do things with new people.

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Yeah I have been around for a long time and it's very discouraging. The only shouts really are for the higher end of high tier content. The low tier stuff, okay maybe you can solo but soloing isn't really possible for mid tier stuff unless you have high tier gear... and there are no shouts for that middle stuff 90 per cent of the time... and it's daunting to try to do content when you're not really sure how it works and you're not super geared so you don't want to shout cause people expect people in pickups to be well geared already even if you're trying to do easier stuff... or they just won't answer because they already have better stuff...

With no incentive to redo older content at all/content that rewards lower quality gear... the game loses what it had in the voidwatch/abyssea era where folks could join with better geared folks to get a bit more caught up. Now the better geared folks clear content - move on and never go back to it for any reason. That leaves a whole bunch of people who aren't quite good enough to confidently clear stuff.

I really miss how in abyssea times I could help speed up folks empy farming and get upgrade items for empy sets and some gear drops out of it, not to mention atma etc. It wasn't perfect but there was a role for folks who were not at the top of the game. Now it just seems like you're an elite player or you're totally useless.

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Originally Posted by Lonnan

1. Buff HP across the board. Won't fix everything but it's cheap and easy to implement (and probably well overdue.)

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HP would have to be greatly buffed, and then cure potency would need to be buffed, which affects enmity. The problem, in most cases, is:

Melee don't wear -dt gear for completely survivable attacks, and then complain when they die. A lot of mages don't either, but they're unaffected by many aoes and usually the double-whammy of a tp-move/spell followed by a spell/tp-move. However, you can see this problem on fights where the aoes are huge or the mages have to be close.

On the other hand, mages can idle in dt gear and not hurt their performance, a melee tp-ing in dt gear will have lower accuracy, lower double attack, lower triple attack. A mage gets... lower auto-refresh.

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2. Limit a monsters TP selection. The problem most content is that mobs select tp attacks at random. That means it is impossible for a party to know whether the monsters next attack will be the AoE attack of insta-death or something that is manageable. Again there are options for how to handle tp attack selection:

a. Make most AoE, high damage attacks dependent on a condition precedent (like how Wyrms only use spike flail when hate is drawn by a player attacking from behind). If attacks can be avoided through game play, it at least makes bad game play the reason for a party wipe and not bad game design.

b. Routines. Ok, so I hated the FFXIV battle system because of this, but in FFXI terms it could be useful. If players have advanced warning that an AoE is about to occur, because the monster followed a specific pattern of TP attacks, then melee players could be out of range when the attacks are used.

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@B: Please no. I hate scripted fights. You literally could macro them if you could put movement commands in macros.

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c. Increased prep time for TP attacks. If players have long enough to respond from the time the monster initiates a tp attack to the the time it is used, then the players have a chance to run out of range.

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The problem I've always thought here is latency. I think that JP players have a distinct advantage here because of this.

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5. Remove debuff auras that cause amnesia, death, silence, etc., unless the aura is of a very short duration and that debuff wears off by moving out of range.

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I'm okay with amnesia and silence auras.

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The thing you didn't address is Amnesia itself. Silence is usually removable. Mutes/silence auras aren't that common, but Amesia, once applied, is stuck on you. For 600 gil, I can continue my job as a mage, but I'm stuck with amnesia.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

HP would have to be greatly buffed, and then cure potency would need to be buffed, which affects enmity. The problem, in most cases, is:

Melee don't wear -dt gear for completely survivable attacks, and then complain when they die. A lot of mages don't either, but they're unaffected by many aoes and usually the double-whammy of a tp-move/spell followed by a spell/tp-move. However, you can see this problem on fights where the aoes are huge or the mages have to be close.

On the other hand, mages can idle in dt gear and not hurt their performance, a melee tp-ing in dt gear will have lower accuracy, lower double attack, lower triple attack. A mage gets... lower auto-refresh.



@B: Please no. I hate scripted fights. You literally could macro them if you could put movement commands in macros.



The problem I've always thought here is latency. I think that JP players have a distinct advantage here because of his.



I'm okay with amnesia and silence auras.

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The thing you didn't address is Amnesia itself. Silence is usually removable. Mutes/silence auras aren't that common, but Amesia, once applied, is stuck on you. For 600 gil, I can continue my job as a mage, but I'm stuck with amnesia.

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I have to agree about the scripted fights suggestion. It is kinda one of the reason I left 14 (and the gear options suck statwise). I love the randomness of 11s fights. In 14 once you learned the fight it was faceroll easy, it becames almost numb playing it. The best part was learning the fight though ill admit.

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Originally Posted by Hoshi

I don't know about heavy class armor jobs because I refuse to play them but I know that for light armor melee jobs there's already a perfectly reasonable progression of accuracy gear. The rawhide armor from abyssea zitah does not require crazy high accuracy to obtain and gives a significant starting boost to acc. From there's it's probably reasonable to attempt t1 NMs in reisenjima for herc gear and more acc. I don't think it's accuracy that's keeping dedicated melee from playing melee jobs, it's more about the things that Lonnan listed (nasty aoe's, bs auras, quickness of tp moves).

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The heavy armor jobs (WAR, DRK, SAM, DRG) do have one drawback.

They don't get to dual wield so they don't get the accuracy (literal accuracy, not [weapon] skill) from offhand, nor potential dex. Augments for 2h weapons (and hand-to-hand) are about as potent as 1h weapons meant to be used with dual-wield. In the case of h2h, grips aren't even usable.

As someone who doesn't play heavy-armor DD, I believe that the acc augments should be doubly potent, or more.) If a a sword or dagger from a boss tier can be augmented with +20 acc, a great axe or scythe should be augmentable with +40 or 50 acc, at no cost to the other attributes (meaning the other augments shouldn't be diminished). Grips simply don't make up for this, not even close.

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Originally Posted by Vae

I just wanna bump this and say:

It's realllllly hard to accomplish things with newer people, shout groups etc. impossibly difficult. I'm not even talking about tough content. New people just get no help, no introduction, no clues what to do. Just thrown in the deep end.

I just wanted to vent, since I started a new account and trying to do things with new people.

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it has more to do with the quality of the people u play with. with that said i am in a outstanding linkshell. if u wanna come to my server i could get u in =P (fair warning we use teamspeak =P)

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

The heavy armor jobs (WAR, DRK, SAM, DRG) do have one drawback.

They don't get to dual wield so they don't get the accuracy (literal accuracy, not [weapon] skill) from offhand, nor potential dex. Augments for 2h weapons (and hand-to-hand) are about as potent as 1h weapons meant to be used with dual-wield. In the case of h2h, grips aren't even usable.

As someone who doesn't play heavy-armor DD, I believe that the acc augments should be doubly potent, or more.) If a a sword or dagger from a boss tier can be augmented with +20 acc, a great axe or scythe should be augmentable with +40 or 50 acc, at no cost to the other attributes (meaning the other augments shouldn't be diminished). Grips simply don't make up for this, not even close.

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There should be item level grips to make up for this. A grip with 119 stats on it would go a long way to helping the problem. But all grips seem to be stuck at 99 cap value, and 2H weapons are currently "balanced" around that.