After ruining BST, causing many to quit playing xi and others like myself to change main jobs...... After getting 1/2 way through kenkonken after canceling my axe..... If you do the same thing to PUP..... Seriously.. It's going to be time to find a new game.Quote:
Adjustments to the range in which abilities can be used
Please, leave PUP alone.... Fix BST while your at it.... Please stop breaking things that aren't the problem, punishing your playerbase for remaining loyal customers.
Keep me as a paying customer - take my money!
Please, someone, tell me SE is not decreasing PUP's JA range and that I missed a post where they are making positive adjustments instead of crippling another pet job....
February 10 2016 update to PUP
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02-04-2016, 01:51 AMJileFebruary 10 2016 update to PUP
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02-04-2016, 03:37 AMLonnan
While I admit at first read this gave me a minor heart attack, it still a bit early to go full chicken little. Let's not forget that the within the "fix" for the bst nerf, SE also adjusted SMNs distance for bps to 22 yalms if I recall correctly. Also, even if a distance nerf is coming and even if it is severe, as long as it doesn't affect maneuvers (which are passive buffs and not active abilities like ready moves) then we are only talking about repair, maintenance, ventriloquy, and role reversal as affected JAs. While not ideal by any stretch of the imagination, a distance nerf on these abilities would not be nearly as crippling as the nerf was for BSTs.
All that said the nerfs and "rebalancing" of long established methods of game play are a bit ridiculous. FFXI, in its current state, lacks any spector of actual game balance. End game content is so broken that the player base has responded by limiting most end game fights to 5 jobs. That means the other 15 are pretty much locked out of meaningful participation in end game. Nerfing anyone job in the name of "balance" is not going to help fix the lack of playability of the other 15 jobs. So please, SE, do not remove or reduce anything from a job until you have added at least something to the 15 jobs, which are least played, to make them actually viable for endgame content. Stop punishing players for finding creative/workable strategies for content that you (SE) designed in such a way that it would be impossible to complete without these strategies. It's not the players fault that, given a limited tool set, they choose the easiest/safest/cheapest method of completing this content. Certain death/failure (especially when the pop item is rare, expensive, or hard to farm) is no one's idea of fun. Please, listen to your playerbase. -
02-04-2016, 04:15 AMdasva
Yeah everything is basically pld, run, geo sch + blms these days. Nerfing other jobs at this point would basically be a giant slap in the face saying do these jobs onry oh and for the mages get a ton of jps first
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02-04-2016, 08:39 AMOlor
Sorry guys, hope it's not a big nerf :(
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02-04-2016, 09:30 AMAtaraxia
I have max out Bst and Pup 2100 Job Points. I enjoy both job at the moment but I enjoy Pup more since i can run away when things get bad. Running in and out is probably a good tactic for Bst but no one can determine what the NM is gonna do what or when? Pup job is to stay away and spam maneuver so pet doesn't die.
Some Tier 3 nm in Reisenjima are just way too powerful and need a lot of accuracy to hit. I thought being a 3 star Bst, using shiromochi food and having vorseals active should not miss a thing but it seem they still do miss on Tier 3 Reisenjima. In fact, it's a must bring Geo to all event. How come DNC isn't like that a must bring Job to all event? I feel really bad for Warrior, Monk and Dark Knight at this point.
I was having so much fun with Pup. I hope it's a misunderstanding that adjustment are good things for Pup but not bad. -
02-04-2016, 12:32 PMStompaI liked and agreed with your analysis, but I snipped this quote because I think that SE view PUP today as a melee job, just like they view BST as a melee job. SMN is of course a pure Mage pet job, entirely governed by MP etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnan
When BST75 was the way, we were BST/whm and we stacked any MP+ gear we could get. On soloing NMs it was rare to see a BST melee, preferring to keep distance and kite/pin/switch etc. PUP was the same, having a wardrobe including Mage type gear, was often played as a remote job. I played both BST and PUP on /whm as remote jobs, kiting and pinning to solo strong NMs, while staying far away with stoneskin/blink up. This was similar to SMN strategies too.
But those days are gone and PUP and BST were made totally Rambo during the Aby era, and increasingly so ever since then. I think that this update may be in line with BST update, since they are both considered by SE to be Melee jobs, while SMN remains a Mage job.
I don't criticise their decisions, because I've been watching in amazement at how hard the FFXI Team have worked in recent years, to keep the game alive and enjoyable, and filled with novelty in hundreds of ways, and I'm so very happy that FFXI is still online, and I'm enjoying it as much / more than ever. But I do wipe away a tiny tear when I think of those old kiting/pinning days of totally remote Pet Job strategy-gaming thrills, the fear and sense of vertigo that it created! -
02-04-2016, 12:43 PMVaeNever do that, they'll ban you. True story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stompa
On topic... BST suffers monumentally from crippling distance nerf, PUP can use Maneuvers no matter what, and still use mulsim from very far away. It's more or less impossible to nerf pup in the same way, seeing as though the automation uses it's ws and abilities without being told to do so.Quote:
This notice is to inform you that we have suspended your access to the FINAL FANTASY XI Forum for one or more violations of the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement that occurred on 1/08/2016.
Posting content with the intention of criticizing Square Enix staff.
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02-04-2016, 05:17 PMdasva
Changing maneuvers would be even crazier than all the others. I mean it's really just a self buff that happens effects pets. It has no distance component because while it is technically a pet command (which is really just a means to tie it to pet being alive) you are using it on yourself and not sending anything to the pet and you are always within distance of yourself. If all of a sudden self buffs that have no distance gain one what the heck is next? Auto refuses to do anything unless you are in range? Cor pet buffs don't work unless in range?
And then there are the frames themselves. What's the point of a tank one if you have to stand next to it? And of course if you keep range and mages ones at a distance you can still keep yourself at a distance. And then there is trying to melee with ranged ones... I mean what's the point of mage/rng frames if to put up maneuvers you have to stop meleeing and run back to them or somehow always put them in melee range? And then have fun doing that with the ranged animators.
And lastly how the heck do they explain it. Like lore wise and from the flavor text of the very first animators is these were designed to be puppets that you didn't have to be next to directly controlling and instead worked "via high frequency waves". How exactly do you reconcile that with a shortrange? -
02-04-2016, 07:31 PMStompa
Animators are of course like remote-control units, you are applying the maneuvers to the animator (ie. range zero, in your hands), but they then transmit long range signals to your Automaton.
Beastmasters used "Beast Whistle" and "Bird Whistle" in the same way, they are lore-related ways of remote pet commands. Before you even get Beastmaster flag-quest, you have to complete the Beast Whistle quest, lore-wise this tells us that you are a friend to the wild animals, and they will answer your call and obey you even at long range, using whistling noises (lore) based on CHR (mechanics).
Beast Whistles and Bird Whistles are still available to use in game, even though you don't need to *whistle* when the pet is standing right next to you. And while they existed in Lore terms only, and could be replaced with any other CHR piece for the same effect, they were tied to the original Lore, just like Animators are. -
02-04-2016, 11:13 PMLonnan
Sorry I would quote and cut but it's maddening to try on my phone. I agree Stompa that SE views SMN as a mage job and implemented it's distance range with that in mind. My point in referencing that is that all distance nerfs aren't created equal.
Let's look at the four pet jobs and their roles. DRG is a heavy DD and has an effective distance range of 0 yalms from its pet (since the wyvern always auto follows). DRG also pretty much only wears heavy armor. BST is also a DD job (though heavy part comes from the pet not the master) and has a distance range of 7 yalms. BST is able to wear some heavy armor, medium armors, and some light armors. SMN is a mage job whose pet can DD but also heal and buff. SMN can only wear mage gear and has a distance range of 22 yalms.
PUP, while a capable attacker, also fills many roles from tanking, healing, support, or nuking based on which pet it uses. PUP can wear light armor (including the eastern sets) and some mage armor. Therefore, I think there is reason to hope that, if SE decides to implement a distance nerf based on a newly imagined view of how the job was always meant to be played, then its newly imagined role will fall somewhere between BST and SMN. The only reason I can see that PUP has access to so much mage gear is because of PUP's versatility and viability of combinaions like PUP/WHM and PUP/RDM to provide party support. Hopefully this hybrid role will carry the day and, in the event of a nerf, we will end up with something managable like 15 yalms (which just happens to be halfway in between BST and SMN). Again I don't like the idea of tampering with things that aren't broken, but I think there is definitely reason to hope that we won't be hit with the same nerf bat they used on BST. -
02-05-2016, 12:05 AMUlth
Rest easy pups, they answered this in the JP forum. They aren't adjusting the range, just making it so the ones that do have a range won't be used if you are out of range.
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/11...=1#post6629268 -
02-05-2016, 12:17 AMLonnanThat is awesome! So it's an official pupdate! I am all for making jobs better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulth
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02-05-2016, 08:23 AMdasva
I'm a bit confused at what that even means really. Other than the attempts to say use things on mobs what else were they trying to do when out of range? Specifically out of range of players?
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02-06-2016, 12:09 AMPups323
If you are in range, and your pet is out of range (trying to catch up) and you deploy your pet on the mob, it can try to use abilities like strobe/voke even if its target is >20 yalm away
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02-06-2016, 02:52 AMdasva
Oh so it right now it wont voke if both of you are out of range? Hadn't really noticed that just that it always tried whenever it got semiclose so thought it wasn't caring about your distance since it vokes when you are 40 away and such
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02-06-2016, 04:11 AMCamate
As mentioned in this thread already, there is no need for concern.
The adjustments taking place in the upcoming version update will not be affecting the range in which automaton abilities can be activated or used.
The main objective of the adjustment is to add a routine to automatons so they are better aware of their range and do not use abilities when it they determine that it will not reach. This will eliminate times where abilities are used but elicit no effect since they are out of range.
One other thing I would like to note is that we will be making adjustments to the damage calculations of melee attacks and ranged attacks, and this will also apply to automatons. You’ll be able to reference the same calculations for beastmaster’s pets, and the damage cap can be increased. -
02-06-2016, 04:53 AMSiviardI've had this happen to me on multiple occasions when I'm PUP tanking an Apex Crawler party and I'm trying to pull from distance using Deploy. Sprocket will try to use Flash or Provoke, but it will be too far away. Then I have to wait for the timer to cool down before it's able to Provoke or Flash again.Quote:
Originally Posted by dasva
So it sounds like what this update will do is make it so the Automaton will refrain from using any abilities until it runs into range of the target. -
02-06-2016, 05:01 AMdasvaSorry I think I'm being unclear. I completely understand the whole auto not being in range of a MONSTER and still using moves erroneously. What I didn't understand was what MASTER distance had to do with it. Like is the reason it tries to use now is because it sees master in range?Quote:
Originally Posted by Siviard
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02-06-2016, 05:08 AMSiviardOh! That I do not know. Good question.Quote:
Originally Posted by dasva
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02-06-2016, 05:40 AMPups323
It has nothing to do with the master.
If the pet has been deployed and is bind/gravitied, he will still try to provoke something that is too far away from him, and it doesnt matter at all where the master is. -
02-06-2016, 06:09 AMdasva
Which is why I was confused by the initial player translation of the jp post. Specifically the part of "in other words, it will affect cases where the Master is within a valid distance, but the automaton’s distance makes it invalid" since I didn't think master distance mattered
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02-07-2016, 05:24 AMJileCamate and others who replied and put my mind at ease for PUP, thank you! (*continues widdling away at alexandrite for Kenkonken*)Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
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02-09-2016, 02:53 AMFrodnonWill summoner avatars also be affected by this change or are they already a part of this newer damage formula or will they remain on the older values?Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
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02-09-2016, 03:26 AMPups323
Some new posts in the jp pup forum.
Basically people asking why the inhibitor doesnt just force the higher level skill chain. (it will wait to skill chain, but it wont use a ws that can close a higher level skill chain) eg it will close with a SC that causes gravity due to active maneuvers instead of closing with one that would create darkness.
They said they would have to redesign the attachment (inhibitor). Then more talk about letting us just pick the the ws, and the devs saying they arent sure if they want to do this or just make a new attachment that always forces the pet to use the highest level ws to close a skill chain. Basically they are still 'looking into it'. -
02-10-2016, 08:21 AMdasva
Oh man I sure hope they revisit the pick a ws idea
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02-10-2016, 02:07 PMSiviardIntroducing, the new and improved Inhibitor II!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pups323
Proudly designed by SquareEnix, this lovely device will force your Automaton to use a weaponskill that will close the highest level skillchain possible!
It can be yours for the low introductory price of 743,000 gil! Please see our Qiqirn Automaton Attachment dealer in Nashmau for details and financing!