Please consider reducing the grind for casual content

Hello! I would like to propose making any one or combination of the following
adjustments based on the current situation, using math to back up my premise. Yay
math!
Here's the situation, before we get started: Currently I could hold 45 merit
points. Assuming that I grind on Blanched Mandragoras in Eminent gear, and that the
only RoE objectives I have specifically set are the "Acquire spoils: elemental
geodes," "Acquire spoils: Avatar-ites," "Deal over X damage: 500," "Vanquish
multiple enemies: 200 count," "Conflict: Ceizak Battlegrounds (Blanched
Mandragora)," and assuming that I got the limited-time "Acquire seals," "Gain
Experience," and "Vanquish Plantoids" -- and the daily 3, and the applicable unity
objectives -- and assuming that it took me 1 minute to kill each mandragora for a
sum total of 300 exp (for the first) up to 450 (beyond the 4th in a chain) and 89
capacity points (generally without exception), and assuming that I got an
additional 500 experience for every 5 killed, along with the other bonuses for
every 200 killed (assuming that I Requiescat every mob once and deal <500 damage
otherwise), 200 kills in the perfect timing would net me:
300 > 330 > 360 > 390 > 420 xp >
450 * 195 = 87750
+1800 = 89550
89 capacity * 200 = 17800


1 spoils: 200 sparks, 1000 exp, 20 accolades
1 spoils: 200 sparks, 1000 exp, 20 accolades
500 damage: 1000 sparks, 5000 exp, 100 accolades
200 enemies: 1000 sparks, 5000 exp, 100 accolades
conflict ceizak: 100 sparks, 500 exp, 100 capacity, 10 accolades
acquire seals LT: 300 sparks, 1500 exp, 30 accolades
vanquish plantoids LT: 300 sparks, 1500 exp, 30 accolades
gain experience LT: 300 sparks, 1500 exp, 30 accolades
daily vanquish 30: 100 sparks, 500 exp, 10 accolades
* presumably, the correct jobs could also buff and heal Daily as well
* presumably, the correct jobs could also partake in Unities

vanquish UC: 100 sparks, 500 exp, 300 accolades (NR)
vanquish plantoids with magic UC: 100 sparks, 500 experience, 500 accolades
unity (flaviria) sword WS: 100 sparks, 500 exp, 500 accolades
unity (flaiviria) heal unity allies: 100 sparks, 500 exp, 500 accolades


buff allies D: 300 sparks, 1500 exp, 30 accolades
heal for 500+ D: 300 sparks, 1500 exp, 30 accolades


meaning in 200 kills taking 200 minutes (3 vanadiel days) it would be theoretically
possible with the correct job and pristine timing with a good unity to get
3 spoils A: 600 sparks, 3000 exp, 60 accolades
3 spoils B: 600 sparks, 3000 exp, 60 accolades
500 damage: 1000 sparks, 5000 exp, 100 accolades
200 kills: 1000 sparks, 5000 exp, 100 accolades
conflict: ceizak x40: 4000 sparks, 20000 exp, 4000 capacity, 400 accolades
1 acquire seals: 300 sparks, 1500 exp, 30 accolades
1 vanquish plantoids: 300 sparks, 1500 exp, 30 accolades
1 gain experience: 300 sparks, 1500 exp, 30 accolades
1 daily vanquish: 100 sparks, 500 exp, 10 accolades
1 buff allies: 300 sparks, 1500 exp, 30 accolades
1 heal over 500: 300 sparks, 1500 exp, 30 accolades
1 vanquish UC: 100 sparks, 500 exp, 300 accolades
1 vanquish plantoids with magic UC: 100 sparks, 500 experience, 500 accolades
1 unity flaviria sword WS: 100 sparks, 500 exp, 500 accolades
1 unity flaviria heal unity allies: 100 sparks, 500 exp, 500 accolades

for a total of:
135,550 experience
21,800 capacity
9,200 sparks
2,680 accolades


45 merits take up 450,000 experience points, each job point takes up 30,000
capacity, and enough sparks to get 3 high-tier rem's tales from grinding takes
45,000 sparks.

meaning the only repeatable objectives for that earth-day would be spoils A and B,
damage, kills, and conflict. This exercise assumes 2 BLU/DNC with capped merit
categories in an ideal situation with no competition for mandies -- who also never
get slept by them -- and who are both under Unity:Flaviria with the trusts Joachim,
Cherukiki, and Moogle out kill non-stop without breaks with spells set to achieve
every objective and get both very lucky with drops and very lucky -- serendipitous
even -- with objectives available that day.
meaning you'd need to CONTINUE TO GRIND

another 200
6x spoils, 1x damage, 1x kills, 1x conflict
1200 sparks, 6000 exp, 120 accolades
damage: 1000 sparks, 5000 exp, 100 accolades
kills: 1000 sparks, 5000 exp, 100 accolades
conflict: 4000 sparks, 20000 exp, 4000 capacity, 400 accolades
base mandragora experience: 90,000 at this point
base mandragora capacity gain: 17800
so another 200 yields = 126,000 experience, 21,800 capacity, 7200 sparks, 720
accolades.
this brings the total to 261,500 experience, 43,600 capacity, 16,400 sparks, 3400
accolades.

meaning you'd need to do it twice more to cap merits, at 513,500 experience
(waste). you'd also have 87,200 capacity points -- or 2 job points (almost 3).
you'd therefore have only 30,800 sparks (enough for 2 high-tier rem's tales), and
4840 accolades (not enough to fight and upgrade an i119 weapon).
that's 800 mandragoras sacrificed at the altar of my character's empowerment over
the course of as many minutes (13 hours, 15 minutes) to get 2 rem's tales, wherein
I need 8. So I'd need to do this another 3 times (making 53 hours, 12 minutes, or
roughly 3 days; the math being excluded for repeating daily objectives in the
interest of NOT getting serendipitous 3 times in a row) -- in order to get 1 piece
of i119 reforged. The average character would need to do so NON-STOP for those 3-
ish days and would walk away with roughly 12 job points and enough accolades to
ATTEMPT to get their i119 weapon of choice (upgraded or not).

If job points are meant to be like leveling up, and merits are meant to be the
buffer that accomodates that, and ilvl gear is meant to be the mechanism by which
we gauge our strength, then this is an unacceptable grind. This would mean that for
a complete i119 set of the player's choice without consideration to whether it
happens to be relic or artifact it would take the average player 15 days to
complete it, more realistically 30 because nobody can play for 3 days solid.

Proposal #1: reduce the amount of sparks necessary for Rem's tales 1-10
Proposal #2: reduce the amount of Rem's tales needed to upgrade equipment
Proposal #3: increase the amount of experience and capacity adoulin enemies drop
Proposal #4: increase the amount of reward as well as availability of RoE
objectives
Proposal #5: increase the sparks capacity to 150,000 so multiple trips aren't
needed.
Proposal #6: balance sparks more efficiently so that by 45 merits, 45k sparks are
acquired for 3 tales at a time (saving the player a day and a half).

Please consider it.

Thanks. Well thought out post, couldn't agree more.

or, you could go into one incursion, for 45 minutes of your time and get a couple job points and several merits. as to some of your proposals:

sparks are dependent on how you get them. I can get waaaaaaaaay more sparks than exp. or i can get waaaaay more exp than sparks. or i can go somewhere in between. it depends on how you go about it. for instance, i can go to crawler's nest to the square room. set all the applicable RoE objectives (can also set GoV page) and pull half the room. I cap out sparks in under an hour and a half doing stonega.

there are more possible ways to get the things you mentioned, you just need to be more creative.

Confused, i get over 1.2k exp solo on chain 100s in cirdas (me + 3 trusts) and can get 45 merits in less than 1 hr. Sparks is about 2-3 hours to get 50k. Even with RoE gear and eminent weapons i still get way better numbers than you are listing.

Proposal 1: Solo SKCNM 20 for pages, on normal you get ~5 pages a kill and can do it with you + 3 trusts in less than 10 minutes
Proposal 2: adoulin exp is amazing, and better than abyssea, it doesnt need to be more
Proposal 3: JP do suck, and cp gain needs to be 2-3 times what it currently is so yeah ill give you that

Sparks arent ment to be a constant like exp, they are a reward for doing daily things and give you a solo alternative when you dont want to/cant group. The fact they are an option at all is amazing. Honestly though, go do some small group content / skcnm / high end mission on easy if you want pages.

With respect, a new player who only had BRD as their 99 wouldn't really get by well in cirdas. Additionally, it doesn't make sense to have to pick-and-choose between capacity points, experience points, and sparks. Integrated systems reduce travel and accomplish multiple goals, which is overall better for the health of the game as newer players already have a mountain of content to complete. Furthermore, do SKCNMs guarantee specific rem's pages and provide 5 really on easy? I'm not being sarcastic, as I really don't know the answer. As an aside, Incursion really isn't what I'd consider casual content as it involves shouting or being part of an LS that does it. This is merely my opinion!

Personally I'd really like seeing a higher Sparks cap (150k sounds good, but anything above 100k works for me) and costs for Rem's Tales cut by half. Not because it's difficult to obtain sparks, but because there's so much gear to upgrade that there would still be more than enough grind even after the cut.


PS > Also, I'm still waiting for the Devs to include the actual tales to the library in Adoulin or something. Summaries of Rem's story just aren't enough. =/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rubeus

With respect, a new player who only had BRD as their 99 wouldn't really get by well in cirdas. Additionally, it doesn't make sense to have to pick-and-choose between capacity points, experience points, and sparks. Integrated systems reduce travel and accomplish multiple goals, which is overall better for the health of the game as newer players already have a mountain of content to complete. Furthermore, do SKCNMs guarantee specific rem's pages and provide 5 really on easy? I'm not being sarcastic, as I really don't know the answer. As an aside, Incursion really isn't what I'd consider casual content as it involves shouting or being part of an LS that does it. This is merely my opinion!

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i'd consider 45 minutes more casual than several hours of solo farming. you don't have to choose between capacity points, exp, and sparks. you can do a mix, and depending on how you go about it you can have one more than the other. and who cares if a new player has a mountain of content to complete. this game isn't supposed to be accomplished in a couple days. it takes years. if you are a casual looking for solo play.... guess what, not only is this an MMO, but also if you are solo, wtf do you even care about the high end stuff if you are just going to be solo anyway?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Protey

...guess what, not only is this an MMO, but also if you are solo, wtf do you even care about the high end stuff if you are just going to be solo anyway?

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You were doing fine until this part.

You just need to look at the majority of games out there to see forced grouping is not in fact a requirement for an MMO to be an MMO. Also, player progression in a game like this is not exclusive of group play either.

Now, if you were talking about a MOBA or a FPS then mandatory grouping is actually applicable because you can't play on your own, but MMOs? Come on now.

news flash. this game is about GRIND. just with the newer content, the grind is no longer as bad as it has ever were. If there's no grind, player would finish what they wanted too fast and has zero reason to stay to play. If they were to design this game completely to your kinds of casual players only (which you're not, I would say it's more the 'please hand me everything' casual then real casual ppl who only plays 1-2 hours a day) like you are requesting, then they'll lose almost all of the other players. It's a hard balancing act imo, and frankly with trusts, etc, it is not hard at all for any jobs to get the easy stuff done like the RoE objectives/etc.

if you're killing too slow, you need to look at what you need to do to make the kill speed faster. Maybe your trust combinations isn't right. Maybe you need to eat acc/atk food, etc, etc. personally, I have a hard time seeing how anyone can get exp as slow as you are getting. something just isn't right at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raydeus

You were doing fine until this part.

You just need to look at the majority of games out there to see forced grouping is not in fact a requirement for an MMO to be an MMO. Also, player progression in a game like this is not exclusive of group play either.

Now, if you were talking about a MOBA or a FPS then mandatory grouping is actually applicable because you can't play on your own, but MMOs? Come on now.

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and so what... you can still get your progression solo. it is just slower. why should you ruin the game for the rest of us just because you want to be solo?


and yes, there is no forced grouping.... and we can just sit around twiddling our thumbs, grinding, but not really doing anything.

This has degenerated and I'm going to ask you to keep it civil. First of all, I've played this game since U.S. release, so no, I'm not "casual" -- I'm just tired of having to break my back every update on the treadmill of grinding. We're losing players, you should appreciate that we need subscriptions so you have something to play. Also? People are allowed to play however they want. BSTs have formed LSs and played solo since they came out. It takes all kinds. Stop being inconsiderate just because someone disagrees with you.
Also? even if you reduced the grind by half, there's still 22 jobs and a mountain of other things to do. this whole "people would quit the game and i hate it when ppl ask for everything to be handed to them" mentality has GOT to disappear. Realize that reducing the grind by half would still be a YEAR of work for 22 jobs.
Do the math yourself if you don't believe me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rubeus

This has degenerated and I'm going to ask you to keep it civil. First of all, I've played this game since U.S. release, so no, I'm not "casual" -- I'm just tired of having to break my back every update on the treadmill of grinding. We're losing players, you should appreciate that we need subscriptions so you have something to play. Also? People are allowed to play however they want. BSTs have formed LSs and played solo since they came out. It takes all kinds. Stop being inconsiderate just because someone disagrees with you.
Also? even if you reduced the grind by half, there's still 22 jobs and a mountain of other things to do. this whole "people would quit the game and i hate it when ppl ask for everything to be handed to them" mentality has GOT to disappear. Realize that reducing the grind by half would still be a YEAR of work for 22 jobs.
Do the math yourself if you don't believe me.

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so what. none of it is mandatory. all content has been completed without JP. just because something exists doesn't mean you are entitled to it. you don't have to break your back, just don't get something... zomg the humanity of it all. heaven forbid you actually have to work for something. your mentality is the one that needs to disappear. This is an MMO, designed around group play. is it still possible to solo? sure. are you going to be able to do all content? nope. nor should you be able to. If you want to be so anti-social as to not go form groups to go do content.... why not just go play a standalone game instead of an MMO? If you are in it just for the social concept.... then stop complaining about how things are obtained in the game. The grind of JP is there for a reason. This isn't level 1-10. We are at level 119. It's SUPPOSED to be difficult to progress. and yes, you can play however you want. you can choose to solo and hence progress slowly. just because you choose to solo doesn't mean this game should be catered toward you so that everything is handed to you with minimal effort. You claim to have played this since release, but you sound so much like a person that didn't join the game until abyssea and just burned all your jobs up by sitting in a party while some guy Fell Cleaved. And just so you have my logical reasoning behind all this... what happens when you get everything fast? well SE has to keep coming up with new stuff. Remember when salvage2 came out and that gear was kinda cool? and then SoA came out about 3 months later making the pieces you just got obsolete? yea that kinda sucked. Imagine doing that all the time, over and over again because SE is catering to the instant gratification people. Stop asking to get things quickly, you're just going to make things worse for everyone if you get your way.

there we go again with "entitled to it."
I'm talking MOSTLY about Sparks here, not JP. One shouldn't have to go on a job they DON'T want to or HAVEN'T accessed (not my case, but there are other players out there you know) to farm sparks and not get a significant amount of merits or JP in the process. Similarly, one shouldn't have to farm merits mind-numbingly and not receive a respectable amount of sparks in the process. Seriously, making sparks on-par with merits (45 merits = 45k sparks would be fine with me, through rewards, math'd out) would be fine with me.
I understand your point though; you don't NEED 119 gear. just like you don't NEED merits and you don't NEED JP. you also don't NEED an aegis but I guarantee you that a PLD competing for a delve will get passed over in favor of another who does.
you're telling me that getting "level 100" is supposed to be harder than getting i119 gear? because essentially if JP = leveling up, it costs 500k experience PER LEVEL beyond 99?
ok then. You're entitled to your opinion, and I do agree that the "gear treadmill" of ilvl was terrible to salvage.
Actually though I recently server transfered so I don't have an LS and that has a lot to do with it. I don't want ALL the gear and JP right away, but getting a job done a month wouldn't kill the game. If SE can't make anything new in a year, I'm pretty sure the game's over anyway.

who takes a PLD to delve now a day???

but back to the point, if you're having hard time farming up sparks fast enough, you need to make sure you're farming the right mobs in the right zones that has all the RoE objectives available to you. If you want to use a non-DD job to farm sparks, that's fine and it'll work. Just use the right Trusts combinations and don't expect to get the same rate of exp/jp/sparks per hour if you were on a DD job with support trusts. there are certain things that are done more efficiently in certain ways. And there are alternatives to those just dont expect every alternative ways to have the same efficiency as others. This is why this game has so many variations.

I'll give it a shot.

But nothing about farming sparks is even remotely difficult. I get them hand over fist. I get so many that I frequently spend them on skillup tomes for skill I don't even use (like great sword and throwing) just so that all my Combat Skills numbers are blue. For a while in the recent past I was spending them on tomes that I gave away to linkshell members. At the very least you could use starter Adoulin gear and a sparks weapon to do AOE attacks on hordes of Abyssea mobs for "Deal 500+ Damage". Or do the daily objectives and limited time challenges for a fairly easy 1900 sparks (900 for completion + 1 copper voucher for another 1000).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rubeus

Realize that reducing the grind by half would still be a YEAR of work for 22 jobs.
Do the math yourself if you don't believe me.

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If you're standing around calling it work, you're indulging in the wrong past-time.

That's not completely fair Zarchery, many/all of us indulge in activities we don't enjoy on XI so that we can make the activities we do enjoy more enjoyable.

I don't like farming dynamis, at all, it is job-like and unpleasant, but I do feel cool with my shiny Aegis tanking things I couldn't tank before, etc.