So when will we get rem instrument and shield upgrades...

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08-15-2014, 05:16 AM
dasva

So when will we get rem instrument and shield upgrades...

Awhile back we were told that the reason we weren't going to get any upgrades for shield or instruments was because they would remain supreme... priwen already beats ochain anytime you can keep reprisal up

and this
http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/...ps69d64d50.png

beats relic horn....

So since it's clear you aren't going to keep those rems as best when are they getting the ilvl treatment?
08-15-2014, 05:24 AM
Olor

That +3 looks shopped to me look how close the + is to the number... but I certainly would love it if it wasn't - would increase my inventory space significantly. Ghorn still has a lot going for it, I'm pretty biased but I don't see the problem here.
08-15-2014, 06:27 AM
Balloon

I'd really love it not to be, Ghorn still has combined 50 skill and CHR. They've stated at the release of Adoulin that they wanted REM to be.. not outclassed, but less important. This would be a step towards that.

I hope that the combined tantrum of all the ghorn bards doesn't ruin it.
08-15-2014, 06:28 AM
Mizuno

Quote:

Originally Posted by dasva

Awhile back we were told that the reason we weren't going to get any upgrades for shield or instruments was because they would remain supreme... priwen already beats ochain anytime you can keep reprisal up

and this
http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/...ps69d64d50.png

beats relic horn....

So since it's clear you aren't going to keep those rems as best when are they getting the ilvl treatment?

How does +3 beat +4? (On 99 horn)
08-15-2014, 06:29 AM
Balloon

It has a base of +1, then +3.
08-15-2014, 06:47 AM
Mizuno

Ah, I only saw the augment, didn't know it came with a native.
08-15-2014, 06:55 AM
Selindrile

+4 to all and occasional cast is not really better than +4 and a crapton of Macc, (which is essentially what you get for all the skill and +Chr on Ghorn right?)

For buffs onry, it's the teensiest bit better, I suppose... but, any time you want to do a debuff at least, Gjaller wrecks that one.

I totally support items like this that are very close to REM but not quite there, I love it.
08-15-2014, 07:43 AM
Balloon

But it's not better. It's equal to in certain situations, a lot worse in others.

If you made your ghorn pre adoulin, then you should have expected that it one day be usurped... if you created it after.. It's not hard to farm for relics anymore. This just allows more casual bards to be able to do more content, and allows them to create content that aims for a +4 song bard (IE: More difficult). It's a win win. Plus... You have no idea how rare that augment is. It could be that you have to spam for weeks just to get the stones capable of getting that augment. Or spam a lot of money to get it.

Sort of like how you create a Ghorn.
08-15-2014, 07:52 AM
Karbuncle

Personally, it looks shopped. A picture popped up of All Songs +2 and Occasionally Quickens Spellcasting + something... seems like someone just played switch-o with the numbers.

However on the chance it is real, I don't find it a bad thing. Means less of a wait looking for a good BRD in shout.
08-15-2014, 08:08 AM
Aeron

Its not really that its equal that is upsetting its the whole idea that its a drop item that bugs me the most. If they had kept the chain going on the skirmish 4 wpns where you needed the +2 version to get the new ones then I could understand because there would be a clear case of effort/time ratio involved.

Really the only case I can point to so far would be the instrument though tbh and like other ppl have said it looks shopped. The new shield is in no way better then ochain or aegis and I haven't seen in omg augments yet so who knows.
08-15-2014, 01:05 PM
dasva

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balloon

But it's not better. It's equal to in certain situations, a lot worse in others.

If you made your ghorn pre adoulin, then you should have expected that it one day be usurped... if you created it after.. It's not hard to farm for relics anymore. This just allows more casual bards to be able to do more content, and allows them to create content that aims for a +4 song bard (IE: More difficult). It's a win win. Plus... You have no idea how rare that augment is. It could be that you have to spam for weeks just to get the stones capable of getting that augment. Or spam a lot of money to get it.

Sort of like how you create a Ghorn.

Except it it's actually slightly better for any buff and the only thing it's worse for that is used is what elegy and lullaby? And even then that's only if you need the macc

It also could be fairly common and easy to get. No point in using what ifs as what is
08-15-2014, 01:28 PM
Karbuncle

Quote:

Originally Posted by dasva

Except it it's actually slightly better for any buff and the only thing it's worse for that is used is what elegy and lullaby? And even then that's only if you need the macc

It also could be fairly common and easy to get. No point in using what ifs as what is

Amano, Bravura, Gungnir are all slightly worse than other 119 options based on the situation. I imagine theres more I'm not counting too.

Sad fact is, A lot of relics are now, especially post WS update, situationally or flat our worse than other 119 alternatives, Ghorn isn't some untouchable special exception. Anyone who didn't see this coming wasn't looking hard enough.

Plus I'm still not entirely convinced that SS isn't a photoshop.
08-15-2014, 01:35 PM
detlef

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Amano, Bravura, Gungnir are all slightly worse than other 119 options based on the situation. I imagine theres more I'm not counting too.

Sad fact is, A lot of relics are now, especially post WS update, situationally or flat our worse than other 119 alternatives, Ghorn isn't some untouchable special exception. Anyone who didn't see this coming wasn't looking hard enough.

Plus I'm still not entirely convinced that SS isn't a photoshop.

Very different situation. Ghorn/Daurdabla/Aegis/Ochain haven't gotten any ilvl upgrades and may never get any upgrades whereas every legendary weapon can already be upgraded to ilvl 119 (and will be upgradeable in the future when the ilvl increases).

I'm not sure that SS is real either, but we'll likely find out soon enough.
08-15-2014, 02:23 PM
Arbalest

Any good augments found for Svalinn yet? Which stone, if so?
08-15-2014, 10:24 PM
Karbuncle

Quote:

Originally Posted by detlef

Very different situation. Ghorn/Daurdabla/Aegis/Ochain haven't gotten any ilvl upgrades and may never get any upgrades whereas every legendary weapon can already be upgraded to ilvl 119 (and will be upgradeable in the future when the ilvl increases).

I'm not sure that SS is real either, but we'll likely find out soon enough.

SE mentioned a shield like Ochain is probably "about I.lv 150", which may have just been blablhablahbah talk, but I imagine these things didn't get I.lv upgrades simply because they were already powerful enough and never got outdated by I.lv gear, in fact outside of certain situations Ochain/Aegis are still the best, Priwen beating Ochain under certain conditions, and Aegis still being the end all magic reduction shield. Perhaps when gear cap goes to 129 or 139, Ghorn will go with it getting +5 songs, who knows.

But for now, I'm going to stick with "Anyone who didn't see this coming was crazy pants", cause they have been phasing out the power gap between relics, all relics, and even some Empyreans (+1 Song effect JSE harp, +2 All Songs Eminent flute), It was bound to happen when a real 119 instrument came out.
08-16-2014, 02:39 AM
Aeron

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

SE mentioned a shield like Ochain is probably "about I.lv 150", which may have just been blablhablahbah talk, but I imagine these things didn't get I.lv upgrades simply because they were already powerful enough and never got outdated by I.lv gear, in fact outside of certain situations Ochain/Aegis are still the best, Priwen beating Ochain under certain conditions, and Aegis still being the end all magic reduction shield. Perhaps when gear cap goes to 129 or 139, Ghorn will go with it getting +5 songs, who knows.

But for now, I'm going to stick with "Anyone who didn't see this coming was crazy pants", cause they have been phasing out the power gap between relics, all relics, and even some Empyreans (+1 Song effect JSE harp, +2 All Songs Eminent flute), It was bound to happen when a real 119 instrument came out.

You are right they did say that but it was most certainly blahblah I don't know what hell im talking about talk because a true ilvl 150 shield with the skill to back it up would blow ochain relative to being used right now on ilvl 126 mobs. Its one thing for a player to make random statements like that, but for something like that to come from a dev that has access to in game formulas is disheartening. Decisions about whether an item is TOO powerful or not should be made on empirical evidence to support such a claim. While I will agree that when ochain first came out yes it was TOO powerful for the lvl of the mobs faced at the time. The problem is that they are hampering the items based on a past mistake.
08-16-2014, 03:12 PM
dasva

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

SE mentioned a shield like Ochain is probably "about I.lv 150", which may have just been blablhablahbah talk, but I imagine these things didn't get I.lv upgrades simply because they were already powerful enough and never got outdated by I.lv gear, in fact outside of certain situations Ochain/Aegis are still the best, Priwen beating Ochain under certain conditions, and Aegis still being the end all magic reduction shield. Perhaps when gear cap goes to 129 or 139, Ghorn will go with it getting +5 songs, who knows.

But for now, I'm going to stick with "Anyone who didn't see this coming was crazy pants", cause they have been phasing out the power gap between relics, all relics, and even some Empyreans (+1 Song effect JSE harp, +2 All Songs Eminent flute), It was bound to happen when a real 119 instrument came out.

Ochain at best has the block rate of an approximately ilvl 150 shield... but the average dmg prevented is more like 132ish... Or 119 you might say certain conditions like it's rare but it's not. Priwen will win anytime you can keep reprisal up (basically anything that doesn't spam dispel). And can win without it on lower ilvl...

And sure aegis might stop more magic dmg than a shield but a run can prevent just as much at least for that element and the block rate on aegis is so poor that aettier probably would give run superior physical dmg prevention as well ergon definitely does by a lot.

But I digress the fact is that the entirety of this thread was based on the fact that they claimed the reason instruments and shields weren't going to get ilvld like other relics because they would remain tops. That clearly is not true so my question is when will they make with the ilvl of them. Since you seem to think they will not sure why you seem to be disagreeing with the tone of the thread... This also isn't simply phasing out of power gap ( a simple no super duper enhanced reprisal but ilvl 119 dmg and skill shield would've done that as would just +3 song with some extras instead this would be like if the jse had 2 extra songs and something extra) this is in a lot of situations a flat out upgrade and the only way you could've seen it coming is if you assumed SE was going to go back on the whole keep just close the gap thing....

Also a bit of what Aeron said... part of the reason these things are probably getting so strong is because mobs are getting that strong so that makes the unupgradable rems which were never anywhere near ilvl 150 as demonstrated by ilvl 119 gear lose performance. Examples Aegis is down to iirc like 12% block rate on 126 normal non nm mobs which make it often suicide to change to it if the mob has access to strong physical moves and things like sentinel or sps. Even Ochain which sports lower dmg prevent per hit than shields used back at level 75 is down to 70%

Which brings me back to the original point which is directed at SE... can this instrument really go up to +4? And if so then since it's clear you are intent on making rem instrument/shields not tops and that's before we even raise the ilvl cap what is your stance now on rem instruments and shields?