[dev1227] ~~~~ MY JOB POINTS POEM ~~~~

Job Points,
Shall I compare grinding thee to working in a Chinese sweatshop?
Thou art more arduous, and less rewarding.

The devs say, "Thou shalt acquire JP accidentally over time!
Thou shalt not grind!"

But forsooth, not grinding JP is like quitting one's job
And scouring the slums for pennies in hopes of making a living.

And lo! The cost of a Job Point! The capacity points overfilleth my cup
And yet I need 30,000 to make a job point!

Job Points,
Shall I compare thy bonuses to receiving a wink and a smile from a street clown
For the price of a brand new, hovering convertible filled with diamonds?

Verily, I shall.

*golf clap*

It's too poignant to be funny.

Ppl hate job point grind because they're busy grinding their next mythic for 3% extra DPS.

I wish I cared enough about Job points to be upset about them or something creative like that, but really my problem with it only goes as far as wishing there was a way to disable the Job points option so it wouldn't appear on the menu anymore. It's just an extra arrow up press I'd like to save if possible when trying to access Merits. /shrug

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Afania

Ppl hate job point grind because they're busy grinding their next mythic for 3% extra DPS.

---

You think you're funny, but that's a TON of extra damage. That almost comes out to tripling your damage per minute with a mythic vs. without a mythic (if you deal 3% more damage per second for 2 seconds, you've dealt 6% more damage than you would have without a mythic according to you. After 60 seconds, you will have dealt 180% more damage than you would have with a mythic according to you, Afania. Add that to the base damage (100%) and you are ALMOST dealing triple your damage with a mythic, according to you). If that's true for any 119 mythic vs. other 119 weapon, Arrapago Remnants would be crashed 24/7.

Apologies for the atrocious pseudo-math, and thank you to the below posters who corrected me.

Another issue with job points:
I stumbled upon some cliffclinger toads in Woh Gates that hit way harder than any Naakual. They're incredibly tough to 118, forced me to retreat as a BLU with 3 Trusts out after just a couple seconds, and Dream Flower with capped Blue skill missed all of them. Yes, I linked them because I was cocky. They're clearly meant for JBP parties with a real tank, a real healer, bard, the whole shebang, but there's a major issue with that: if you need a balanced party to farm these JBP monsters, that means JBP needs to be worthwhile for EVERY job. If no job other than BLU has a reason to want JBP, these monsters will sit unused always.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edyth

You think you're funny, but that's a TON of extra damage. That comes out to tripling your damage per minute without a mythic. If that's true for any 119 mythic vs. other 119 weapon, Arrapago Remnants would be crashed 24/7.

Another issue with job points:
I stumbled upon some cliffclinger toads in Woh Gates that hit way harder than any Naakual. They're incredibly tough to 118, forced me to retreat as a BLU with 3 Trusts out after just a couple seconds, and Dream Flower with capped Blue skill missed all of them. Yes, I linked them because I was cocky. They're clearly meant for JBP parties with a real tank, a real healer, bard, the whole shebang, but there's a major issue with that: if you need a balanced party to farm these JBP monsters, that means JBP needs to be worthwhile for EVERY job. If no job other than BLU has a reason to want JBP, these monsters will sit unused always.

---

you can kill them just fine with 3 DD 1 support (a GEO or COR or BRD or RDM) and a healer (a SCH or WHM or RDM) + 1 random job (fill in what you want, additional DD or support).

EDIT: this is assuming each member knows how to gear up properly and play their job

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edyth

You think you're funny, but that's a TON of extra damage. That comes out to tripling your damage per minute without a mythic. If that's true for any 119 mythic vs. other 119 weapon, Arrapago Remnants would be crashed 24/7.

Another issue with job points:
I stumbled upon some cliffclinger toads in Woh Gates that hit way harder than any Naakual. They're incredibly tough to 118, forced me to retreat as a BLU with 3 Trusts out after just a couple seconds, and Dream Flower with capped Blue skill missed all of them. Yes, I linked them because I was cocky. They're clearly meant for JBP parties with a real tank, a real healer, bard, the whole shebang, but there's a major issue with that: if you need a balanced party to farm these JBP monsters, that means JBP needs to be worthwhile for EVERY job. If no job other than BLU has a reason to want JBP, these monsters will sit unused always.

---

I knew it, it's another random complain that exist for the sake of wanting to complain, with no legit reasoning.

First of all, mythic doesn't "triple" your dmg, it doesn't even double your dmg unless you're koga SAM solo DD SC with allies roll. Not counting SC dmg none of the mythic is that much increase over another ILV119. Sounds like you just pull numbers out of your ass.

Half of the players I know in this game build a REM for the sake of wanting a REM, instead of performance increase. I still see ppl /shout for VW 24/7 for nearly useless mythic/empy/relic just because they want them. If they spend THAT much time on building a nearly useless REM when better alternatives available, they may as well spend the time to farm JP, at least JP is 100% increase when REM is often replaceable with another ILV119. Cry about JP being "useless" then proceed to build REM that doesn't parse high is really something I don't understand.

JP pt doesn't need a balanced pt. You can farm them solo, or with 2 ppl. Even without double CP campaign I can farm about 50k/hr solo with RoE rings, some ppl can farm even more. I just did a Woh gate pt with THF COR PUP BRD and 2 WHM trusts, with PUP missing 80% of the hit and BRD just an afk mule, we got around 3 JP in 45 min. So that's 13hr of work to cap 1 category with just 4 ppl and no real healer/tank/DD. I heard some ppl can farm 10 JP in 90 min so that's 8hr to cap 1 category. I don't see what's so bad about it compare with building a relic/empy/mythic. If 13hr per category without tank/healer/DD is too much grind, you may as well don't play MMORPG since you're supposed to spend hundreds and hundreds of hr in MMORPG.

BLU isn't the only job gets useful JP. So far every job has around 1~2 job point that's not bad and a few that's bad. Ppl really need to stop downplaying the performance increase of job point.

For example, SAM hasso job point 10/10 gives 10 STR, 10 STR after 8~13hr of grind is perfectly fine. @75 we spent way longer than 8~13hr for gears or merit that offers 10 STR. Hell ppl pay 20M for 1 STR when ifrit's ring+1 was just out, for majority of the player it takes longer than 8hr to farm 20M.

It seems that you just complain for the sake of wanting to complain. I see zero issue with reward/effort ratio with job point. We've been tossing gears since SoA release, it's nice that SE finally offered some way to increase performance without having to toss them after next update.

Perhaps I misunderstand how your math is working here...

Assuming your normal DMG is 100 a hit...
2 * 1.03% = 2.06
2 * 100 = 200
2.06 * 100 = 206
206 / 200 = 1.03(even after 100 swings it's still only +3% basically)

You're stacking the 3% over and over again, doesn't work that way. If you do 3% more DMG per hit then you're only doing 3% more DMG, after a minute it's not 180%.

Demonjustin you might be correct but after 34 hits it does add to another hit

so when you have hit 34 times you do the damage of 35 hits which over all is(mathematically) in the realm of insignificance

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SMD111

Demonjustin you might be correct but after 34 hits it does add to another hit

so when you have hit 34 times you do the damage of 35 hits which over all is(mathematically) in the realm of insignificance

---

Well... yeah, that was my point. Edyth was saying 3% DMG over the course of a minute was equal to doing nearly triple the damage you'd do without that +3%. The math simply doesn't work that way. It would if you were adding an additional 3% DMG every additional hit, 3% the first time, 6 the second, but if you're saying a Mythic weapon increases your DMG by 3% then the math would be more along the lines of what I showed. That is of course, unless I'm missing something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edyth

You were the one who claimed that mythic weapons lead to a 3% DPS increase, Afania. If you deal 3% more damage per second for 2 seconds, you've dealt 6% more damage than you would have without a mythic according to you. After 60 seconds, you will have dealt 180% more damage than you would have with a mythic according to you, Afania. Add that to the base damage (100%) and you are ALMOST dealing triple your damage with a mythic, according to you, Afania. That was your claim, not mine.

---

DPS: Damage per second.

Assume you do 100 DPS, then with a mythic, you do (by his numbers) 103 DPS, a 3% increase. 2 seconds and you do 206, 5 seconds and you do 515. If you weren't on the forums for 3 years with over 400 posts, I'd assume this was a terrible troll, rather than just a poor understanding of basic math.

For what it's worth, some weapons see as high as a 20% increase under optimal conditions. A catch all 3% increase doesn't do RMEs justice. Outside of extravagant solos/lowmans though, it's DPS that's not needed to complete the content, but this is an MMO. Who'd honestly not pursue something like that if they were passionate about the job?

You all handed me my ass in the math department, but my poetry still stands. I think the time investment in job points is too great to warrant the meager rewards. It's not quite as bad during the double JBP campaigns, but without a campaign and a Vocation Ring active, I just don't think they're worth it for most jobs.

You must not have been around when meriting was a thing. I don't thing the JP system is bad, it just needs to be added to more content like hard mode fights and Delve, with large quantities.

It's not a bad concept, but JP need to come in larger amounts and more places, I definitely think. Also so many of the JPs are total duds, there are only a few gems, a few marginal, and a ton of just worthless crap.

To paraphrase, never have so many FFXIers, paid so much, for so little.

I don't really like the idea of holding JPs to MPs old rates because MPs were from a much different time. The game has changed, the type of content people do has changed, and in general the points have changed. Merit points were very different from Job Points, the way they scaled as you spent them, the fact they could be spent on all jobs, the potency of what they gave you, Job Points really don't seem like they should be taking as long as they currently do.

Today I finished my first category, I have 8 extra points for when the update comes for me to dump into Composure. For now, it's at least a bit bearable for me, but when I say now I mean during the double CP campaign. During normal times I think it's too slow, and once we get to the point where we can get up to 30 points in each category it's going to be even worse. In my opinion, the rate should be at least doubled from it's current norm, that or the scaling should be cut back in a similar way to merit points, going up 1 point every level is really the largest killer in the end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edyth

You all handed me my ass in the math department, but my poetry still stands. I think the time investment in job points is too great to warrant the meager rewards. It's not quite as bad during the double JBP campaigns, but without a campaign and a Vocation Ring active, I just don't think they're worth it for most jobs.

---

Even without double CP campaign and vocation ring, it's still just fine.

According to the producer of PSO2, their research shows avg MMORPG player spend 2~3hr a day playing MMORPG. Since FFXI is a MMORPG with a sub fee(so it's a waste of money to play more than 1 MMO) and there's no cool down time between events, technically avg player should spend 60hr~90hr a month playing this game.

I just told you without any CP bonus ring I farm 3 JP in 45 min with THF COR leech PUP and mule BRD, which is less than 14hr to cap a category with a very sub optimal pt.

Without double CP it'd be 28hr to cap 1 category. Since avg MMORPG player play for 60~90hr a month, they'd cap 2~3 category after 1 month.

If you go with most optimal pt like SAM SAM SAM COR BRD RDM, I'm pretty sure you can cap all 4 category after 1 month of playing.

I'm not sure if 1~1.5 months of playing to cap all category is even that much of a big deal in the realm of MMO. MMO is suppose to keep players playing longer than 3 months. Especially for a game like FFXI with a sub fee and no cool down time. 100hr of gameplay is just...avg, or even below avg. Anything lower than 100hr of gameplay will kill MMORPG faster than it should be. Mind you, when PSO2 just launched, the game was expected to take 3 months just to reach cap(that's what the producer said), which is 300+hr of grind.

Also, I'm pretty sure those who spend time to grind a mythic still spend 100+hr on it. If they can spend 100+hr on a mythic, what's wrong with 100hr of CP pt? If you think 100hr of grind is too much in a MMO, you may as well don't play MMO, since this is avg amount of grind required in pretty much any MMO on the market to stay alive....except pay to win MMOs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malithar

For what it's worth, some weapons see as high as a 20% increase under optimal conditions. A catch all 3% increase doesn't do RMEs justice. Outside of extravagant solos/lowmans though, it's DPS that's not needed to complete the content, but this is an MMO. Who'd honestly not pursue something like that if they were passionate about the job?

---

Of course you can build what you like. I simply don't understand, ppl been spending hundreds and hundreds of hr building things like Clausrum, Gastraphetes, Murgleis and they shit on the reward:effort ratio of JP all over. In fact we have someone in this thread spent time on excalibur/almace and Murgleis complaining JP grind "too slow".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Demonjustin

I don't really like the idea of holding JPs to MPs old rates because MPs were from a much different time. The game has changed, the type of content people do has changed, and in general the points have changed.

---

This game is still a MMO, this remained unchanged. If this game is now a single player game, maybe your argument would be more legit.

Now that the most of the progress can be made in a much faster rate if you don't build REM or already finished the REM you want, I'd still defend for JP.....it is required to prolong the game. Saying "the game is different now" is pointless. This game is still MMO, as long as it's MMO, it shouldn't allow players to cap everything in less than 100hr of gameplay.

Mind you, I mostly only play on weekend and I spend less time than avg MMORPG player in FFXI(since I dual sub TESO and FFXI so I play both), and I haven't finish any category yet. I'm not really defending for JP because I'm hardcore or anything. I'm defending for it because this game simply needs more long term goal.

Perhaps that's part of my problem I suppose, the fact I'm doing a bunch of stupid old out of date content to make my Mythic is preventing me from being able to really go out there and get Job Points. Unless they change the way Job Points work though that's not about to change any time soon, so it's an issue. Besides that the fact it's a MMO doesn't really give much cause for why exactly it should take so long for something so minor. You bring up the fact I'm making my Murgleis but at least that weapon holds multiple purposes, it's the best DMG and Enfeebling weapon, it even boosts convert.

Job Points take much less time but the amount they bring to the table in benefits are really not that large either, for RDM specifically you have 20 Magic Damage during Chainspell, 10 extra seconds on your Stymied Enfeeble, 10 Magic Acc/Atk, 10% HP Saved on Convert, and 10 extra Accuracy with Composure. That's hardly anything when you think about the fact that even at 5 JPs a hour, which to me sounds like a fairly high rate even with rings and double CP, you'd need to spend 66 hours to cap all 6 categories, that's 2.75 days.

The fact I'm making a Mythic also really doesn't discredit what I said because I have in the past multiple times said I think Mythics take far too long and that it's requirements should be cut down. You've opposed me every single time yourself even, so I'm sure you know this already. Murgleis is about the only thing I've left for RDM I really even care to get since the other things are mostly minor and would take a lot more pain to obtain, such as better augments on my Hagondes for instance. Spending my time on Murgleis has less to do with me being willing to spend high amounts of time on one thing but not another, and more to do with the fact it's one of the last things I have to do in a game where I'm constantly struggling as it is to find entertainment these days.

Job Points aren't fun, they're also not hard nor are they as rewarding for the time that need be spent on them. To me it seems SE has shown they mean for it to be a more casually earned type of point than something like merits even, I mean, just look at BLU's new category. +1% rate of learning BLU spells. Yeah, all the high end BLUs out there who care about BLU enough to farm JPs, that's what they're going to spend it on...

That category alone seems to scream "casually accumulating point system" because simply put the only people who need that category in the first place are people who don't even play or care about BLU. I myself have almost every BLU spell, I learnt everyone up to 95 before I stopped and even then I stopped only because it was before item level and my BLU wasn't geared enough to fight some of the higher end mobs I was coming up to. With that said, keep in mind the only times I ever played BLU at all after getting it to cap was to proc in Abyssea and VW, nothing else, and yet still I went out and got all of the spells. Maybe it's just me but I can't imagine a BLU having enough points to waste some on this category and yet not have all of their spells. I also can't see a player spending points on this category "just because" when future updates will other things that are likely to be much more worthwhile.

Now sure, it's just one category, but the point is that these things look like they're meant to be casual rewards. If they were like sparks, or even like merits, I'd be ok with that. I can get sparks when I do monstrosity, Salvage, Dynamis, I mean really anything in the game can give sparks even crafting. Merits, that's not as easy as crafting but it's still terribly easy. Anything I fight past level 60 gives me some credit toward merits, only 96+ for JPs though.

If they want a casually accumulating system, it needs some adjustments. Speed is one thing I see as a large issue especially when as we move forward and the slope continues to increase(or even if it just stays at 10) the rate will be horrible. Another issue is the amount of content which provides these points, everything in Adoulin does basically, but events like Dynamis or Salvage award us either none, or so few that a single point would take a week of runs(as is the case with Dyna...).

i thinkt hey should add a bonus to woh and doh gate mobs when fighting in party, the mobs are designed for a PT, but it should give more incentiv to pt and get down on those mobs, +20% for each party member would be a nice start, instead of a penalty. we do regularly some CP runs there when gather merits for hardmode fights.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Woh Gates mobs give the same XP/CP as Dho Gates mobs. The difference between them should be quite large in my opinion, Dho I can cap Accuracy on with my RDM using nothing but a simple Accuracy set and pizza, Woh on the other hand is quite a bit out of range. I haven't done Woh except once but I remember the XP being the same when I soloed a couple mobs a month or two ago, unless that was changed at some point that could be quite the helpful change as well to make one more appealing than the other.

Being higher level, the CP chains extend longer and for a higher boost. I *think* their base is slightly higher too, but I don't remember if it's by much. I believe XP is the same between the two because we've hit the cap (level of mob over your level), but I forget tbh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Demonjustin

Besides that the fact it's a MMO doesn't really give much cause for why exactly it should take so long for something so minor.

---

Yes it does, because the design goal of MMORPG is very different from single player RPG. Single player RPG is a 1 time only experience, so the design goal is to make players interested enough to buy it and pay the money. After they bought the game nothing else matters. As long as the player paid for the game, it doesn't matter if the game is 100hr long or 1hr long. The length may affect player's willingness to pay for the game, but it's not the only factor affecting it.

The design goal of MMORPG with a sub fee is to keep players paying every month.. Not 1 month, 2 months nor 3 months, not 6 months nor 12 months, but longer than that.

When target audiences of this particular genre spent 60~90hr a month playing the game, slower progress is justified.

As for the "minor improvement", it's pretty subjective. Compare with many other gear options certain job point is same lv/bigger increase. If you make job point a 30% increase, it'd broke the game balance and make JP grind a requirement instead of a bonus. If the job point is only a 3% increase, then it won't be a requirement.

Ppl rant and complained about how REM being too OP and a requirement to play the job pre-SoA, now ppl rant and complained about how JP being minor increase. Exactly what do you want? 13hr of grind for 20% increase? So we get 100% increase after every monthly update? I'd take 3% increase after 28hr grind over 13hr grind for 20% increase so we don't ended up doing content 10 lv higher after every update and toss more gears.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Demonjustin

Murgleis is about the only thing I've left for RDM I really even care to get since the other things are mostly minor and would take a lot more pain to obtain, such as better augments on my Hagondes for instance. Spending my time on Murgleis has less to do with me being willing to spend high amounts of time on one thing but not another, and more to do with the fact it's one of the last things I have to do in a game where I'm constantly struggling as it is to find entertainment these days.[/HB]

---

By the time you finish your Murgleis, maybe your opinion toward job point would change unless you want to start on 2nd mythic. Unless you enjoy sitting in town afking and doing nothing with absolutely 0 goal in game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Demonjustin

Job Points aren't fun, they're also not hard nor are they as rewarding for the time that need be spent on them. To me it seems SE has shown they mean for it to be a more casually earned type of point than something like merits even, I mean, just look at BLU's new category. +1% rate of learning BLU spells. Yeah, all the high end BLUs out there who care about BLU enough to farm JPs, that's what they're going to spend it on...

---

Fun or not is subjective though, no one is arguing about job point being too "hard" here. To me it's the same difficulty as delve, just engage TP WS and kill.

If you don't like certain category just don't do it. I don't mind SE can change certain category into more useful one though.

I don't think job point is for casual at all, it's for ppl that's already done with gear grind.

Dev post about job point categories: over 12,000 views; 18 likes.
My poem: over 900 views; 18 likes.

They've had 12x the number of views I've had, and they would have 12x the Likes if I were the one who's crazy. Instead, it is the developers who are off their rockers with these job points. They are a fool's errand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edyth

Dev post about job point categories: over 12,000 views; 18 likes.
My poem: over 900 views; 18 likes.

They've had 12x the number of views I've had, and they would have 12x the Likes if I were the one who's crazy. Instead, it is the developers who are off their rockers with these job points. They are a fool's errand.

---

If you think OF represents entire FFXI population's opinion, then you're delusional. OF is full of players not enjoying the game for (mostly) silly reasons. Those who's happy with everything won't even visit here. You can typically hate on certain design for logical reason except "I HATE IT, I DON'T ENJOY IT, FIX IT PLZZZ!" and still get ppl to agree with you.

And the JP job points post has 32,461 views and 25 likes which means...

Oh yeah pretty much NOTHING. Other than whenever I scan the Japanese forums they do seem more likely to use that button.

OP still haven't reply to my question, how'd 100hr(or 50hr with double CP campaign) of grind in a MMO is terrible as a long term goal.

I enjoy JP grind because I enjoy long term goal, I'd rather spend 100hr to grind them than spend 5hr on gear and toss it next update. This game needs more progress/accomplishment that needs 100hr to complete and won't be completely useless next month.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Afania

If you think OF represents entire FFXI population's opinion, then you're delusional. OF is full of players not enjoying the game for (mostly) silly reasons. Those who's happy with everything won't even visit here. You can typically hate on certain design for logical reason except "I HATE IT, I DON'T ENJOY IT, FIX IT PLZZZ!" and still get ppl to agree with you.

---

Some of us come here for update details. Personally, I come here to watch you ardently defend SE's hilarious decision making skills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fernando

Some of us come here for update details. Personally, I come here to watch you ardently defend SE's hilarious decision making skills.

---

I don't defend for every SE's decision making though. I defend for better game design, when SE made decision about BLU JP category I was against that design decision. Just because I defend for a design you don't like, doesn't mean I defend for everything. I also pointed out that if JP has no job restriction, it'd be a better system than it currently is.

If you think the design decision about JP is bad, why don't you answer the above question instead of just pop on the forum and shit on the design all over without providing a reason.

My biggest problem with job points is that they should be available everywhere, even if it's at a reduced rate for non Adoulin areas. That would take a bit of the grind out of it.