Now it just seems that the community has gotten so picky beyond belief (due to the fact population is next to none and everyone seems to be in the "only these jobs for everything" mentality) that thf literally has 0 purpose in end game. Aside being told to 'level monk" (get sick of hearing that), thf has to be able to do dmg on some level in end game to be useful.
I know we aren't supposed to be the best nor are we a war or sam etc, but we are a DD, not some backline job that runs to the front to hit the mob once and we stand back the rest of the fight (been told this multiple times and been called useless in every aspect of end game). We can't do voidwatch, delve, hard mode dynamis NMs, hard mode salvage, etc due to our ineffectiveness.
I must be missing something here because the fact that I'm told we can't do anything end game related is unacceptable in my eyes nor am I going to be "bullied" by the server to quit/retire thf and play mnk which is some sorry copout/excuse.
And seriously SE, fix thief. You've been treating us as one of the biggest loljobs since the beginning. In end game, our evasion is useless, our TH is useless, our dps is lacking. Seriously, what do we have? We deserve more than what we have. I didn't level my thf to be a tool. I leveled it to be a solid DD and actually love using the job and playing it to my full potential. I didn't gear it to be a meaningless visual trophy. Leveling another DD is not an acceptable answer. Period.
Here is what I suggest:
1) If you are going to make Treasure Hunter useful, make it useful across the board. This is a star trait yet it almost has 0 application in end game situations. We can't use it in anything that drops a chest/crate/BCNM/etc due to the fact that TH has no bearing on the drop rate. To be honest, it should. It should affect everything drop related period.
2) Increase our usefulness aside just TH. We honestly should be able to do decent/good damage overall and not have to be second banana to every other DD job. We are a damage dealing job. Not a gimmick/TH only job.
3) Make our tools useful to the situation across the board, not just low level content. We have so many abilities and traits that are completely useless in an end game situation. Evasion for example has literally no use on end game mobs. This is one of our star traits and all the end game mobs have capped accuracy so that makes us useless to dodge. Sneak Attack and Trick Attack should be usable more often. Once every 1 minute is too long. It should be cut down to like 30-45 seconds each or so and make the merit traits increase the damage modifier. This is our big damage time. Every other melee job just needs their tp to 100% and they unleash big damage. Ours is extremely situational.
4) Base damage is too low against high level mobs in comparison to other jobs. When I can swing for 60-200 damage a hit in comparison to a monk who does 200-600 damage swing that attacks just as quickly or in some cases faster, what chance do I have to be remotely useful? 2 hander jobs I understand hit harder which makes sense but the problem is here is there is way too much tierism in the jobs.
Overall, the jobs definitely need balance. It's not just thief either. Other jobs such as Beastmaster, Blue Mage, Red Mage (they seriously got the shaft), and some others are in the same boat as well being undesired in end game. The goal here is to make every job useful in end game situation. Everyone wants to play a game to use their favorite job and not be forced to level another job. People want options. We need those options. Balance is important. Lot of other jobs got plenty of love such as paladin, dragoon, warrior, black mage, etc. Thieves and other aforementioned jobs need the same.
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11-29-2013, 01:13 PMKiyaraPlease fix thief SE. Tired of being the joke job of FFXI for end game. Job Balance!
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11-29-2013, 07:02 PMZarchery
Are there any jobs that haven't complained about being the "joke" job at some point in the history of the game?
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11-29-2013, 07:39 PMLouispvBRD, COR, WHM, and WAR have been pretty much at the top from day one. On the other hand THF has never been anything but a joke. Even when it was most popular it was a "Stick the THF in for 1 hit at the end for TH, then kick him again" job. Which is a mule's job now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarchery
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11-30-2013, 01:38 AMFaeQueenCoryT_T that's still more than what SMN has gotten....Quote:
Originally Posted by Louispv
But on topic:
The whole TH thing is totes spot on.... maybe if TH affected the current endgame: Delve... maybe there could be a spot for THF.
THF has the highest evasion in the game... but NIN is a better evasion tank due to blink-tanking.
THF can dual wield daggers: fastest weapons in the game.... But like Kiyara said... death by 1000 pokes isn't really doing anything when MNKs do the same speed of delay for a bajillion more damage. With the ability to have more than one 119 weapon.... maybe the DD aspects of THF can be viable. Even if only a little.
We also need to remember: it's not the fault of the players that most of the jobs have 0 place in Delve atm. (I'm hoping full 119 armors will let more people in... like how the 119 REM should have...)
It's the fault of the design of the event.
And the fact that MNK has access to the one of the easiest 119 weapons to get.
Which is also the fault of Delve... At least with the 119REMs all weapons have a 119.
VW was well designed with inclusivity... because having at least 1 of every job was a benefit. (though there was still priority to certain jobs... it didn't EXCLUDE the way Delve does.) -
11-30-2013, 05:04 PMComeatmebro
Keeping it short and sweet:
- Content with an 18 man limit that can be cleared consistantly with 9 is not exclusionary. Players are exclusionary.
- THF is fine, assuming both are perfectly geared, a THF will contribute more to the alliance than a MNK will in ceizak. The disadvantage in other zones is not severe. Players don't like THFs because many of them are not geared well, and leave a bad impression that brings the whole job down. It seems that those with the resources to get the top end gear gravitate toward the more popular jobs.
- Kiyara has some serious entitlement issues. Like, serious. -
12-02-2013, 02:51 AMKiyara
I'm just more upset at the community overall. The bigotry/ignorance of these end game groups is just unbelievable. I never did that crap when I ran my end game LS. Everyone was welcome.
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12-02-2013, 12:49 PMNakts
Indeed, I miss "All Welcome" endgame communities, now all I see are "OAT MNK VET ONRY".
And I had the same feeling when I played around with my THF, it kind of sucks to feel so useless on what should be an awesome job. -
12-04-2013, 02:26 AMFaeQueenCory9_9Quote:
Originally Posted by Comeatmebro
Yes because VW totes excluded the vast majority of jobs because they didn't contribute to the challenge at hand.
Oh wait. No. That's the EXACT OPPOSITE of VW where having 1 of everything increased procing chances.
Yes. Exclusion is on the players.
But the fact that the content is set up to encourage this is also undeniable.
(VW was set up to be anti-exclusionary... by having something for every job to do. Delve does not do this, and by not doing this enables exclusionary practices.) -
12-07-2013, 09:33 AMGlamdringen vino veritasQuote:
Originally Posted by Comeatmebro
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12-07-2013, 09:41 AMDraylo
Wow how didn't they ban that signature? lol
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12-10-2013, 12:37 AMDamanei would like to disagree and say that, RDM was on the top until WHM got buffed, whm was only in for alliance fights or for somethign that required stona, otherwise it was allways RDM. WAR was never really on the top, ecxept after the RNG nerf, and even then it was for 1 year Samurai heaven (ZOMG dont feed the mob TP!!! just use meditate). COR was on the top after they buffed the potency of rolls. As for BRD thats correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louispv
people need to get of the stigma that only leet jobs can do endgame. Talk to the people that refuse thf, the job itself is fine. Its not a developer problem its a playerbase problem (hello mnk-heaven we have now...) -
12-16-2013, 03:45 PMOphannus
They need to make THF an assassin job and not just a support treasure hunter job with enmity gimmicks. All the little steps and sambas that DNC had should have been JAs for THF tbh, would have fit THF to be able to gice up TP to enfeeble the mob while building up for stronger WS or other kinds of technical things. But alas, SATA need even shorter recasts in this day and age, like 30 seconds. A stance that ups the THF's attack and crit% when behind the mob but lowers evasion and their own critical evasion, kind of like Innin or something. Gives THFs more of a reason to stay out of sight and to encourage them to be behind the mob. Against NMs which are immune to steal/despoil, allows THF to steal temp items from them. Dusty Potions, Catholicon, Stalwart's Tonic etc..
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12-16-2013, 03:48 PMOphannus
Also I like to add the thing is SE tries to incorporate THF and other types of melees by making mobs resistant to other forms of damage so you need a mix of slashing/blunt/piercing/magic/ranged. Many NMs in fracture have some gimmicky thing where their damage resistance changes which fosters fair play amongst all jobs.
Matamata shifts physical and magical, so we nuke it down to 6 TP moves then zerg it.
SE probably intended your group to fight it straight up and just balance both types of damage.
Chapuli has high eva when you WS, SE probably intended this to be killed with Blue Magic(takes a crapload of damage to Blue Magic) and Rangers, good physical DDs that don't rely on WS much.
Krakatoa/Craklaw/Mastop etc similar
Even the Delve bosses shift weaknesses from Piercing/Blunt/Magical/Slashing/Ranged at various 25% stages(most of these go overlooked except Tojil's but the Shark has dmg phases too). The thing is ppl don't care about damage resistances when you have MNK which has incredible attack power, solid weapon skills, can bolster everyone's survivability, has the most HP which is ideal to prevent being one-hit-KO'd by obscenely strong AoEs that basically need to be stunned locked or you get hit for 2.5-3k and can counter/guard/self heal etc and to top it off can bypass any kind of weakness with Formless Strikes. Why bring a THF for piercing when a MNK can bypass it all? Hell even DRK has Twilight Scythe. Might as well give THF, DRG and WAR a way to bypass special defense too(actually SE's first idea for WAR SP2 was a 30 second formless strikes without the dmg reduction lthat could proc on WS too) but knowing SE, they'll probably give WAR that as a lvl 72 JA with a 3min recast next month.
The problem is, why find a DRG, THF, SAM, RNG, BLM when you can get a BLU with Requiescat, Mura SAM and 4 Oatixur MNKs with Formless which bypass all those defenses/weaknesses with non-elemental damage? -
12-16-2013, 05:02 PMKarbuncleWhile I agree THF has some potential, the use of the term "Entitlement/Entitled" hits the wrong buttons. We're basically in an era where people refuse to believe we, as a people or consumer, should get anything more than what they give us, and if someone has the audacity to ask for more, the companies don't even have to silence them or make some BS PR response anymore, idiot sheep just come in and shoot them down by calling them entitled, burrying any hope we have as a consumer of ever getting the service, respect, and assurance our feedback is valued that we deserve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Comeatmebro
... Sorry... I'm a little touchy on this subject you see, not THF in general but the fact this generation of gamers is so content with being fed the scraps of anything good while they sell you DLC left and right, and anyone who speaks out against such blatant bullcrap is labeled as "entitled?... letting greedy companies like EA and such get away with what is basically robbery.
*not that this applies to square enix* (PS nothing against you :D)
Not true. SMN was my first job to 75, back around CoP... I was invited and wanted to many of the BCNM for CoP (Astral Flow and what not), I had a spot in many Jailers for my ranged hateless damage, was used a lot during Kirin fights for Nether Blast back when that was actually a thing... Even up to ToAU I got in Odin fights for my hateless damage, and once we got Alexander our uses grew a lot more.Quote:
Originally Posted by FaeQueenCory
While we were far from the star of the party, SMN has had a useful spot in endgame pretty much entirely... though we did fade into crapness around the raise of level cap... But we did use to have our day way back when :0
(ANYWHO)
On topic, back when this forum was first opened I, and many others, made a few threads on how to improve THF, needless to say like a true modern era company, none of the suggestions, while I'm sure properly delivered by our community team, were ever implemented. (except in some small scale with Bully, which allows SA to work from any direction)... So my feelings on THF are well known, I love the job, its my favorite tied with SMN, but the job is very lackluster, and regardless of how poor the job is or isn't, the community sees it as crap, and educating any mass group of people who are complacent and accepting of their ignorance is an impossible task, so I gave up.
Goodluck Kiy, i know ranting makes you feel better, but It'll be a cold day in hell before any job suggestions are implemented :| -
12-16-2013, 07:05 PMEconomizerWHM hasn't always been on top, and its position has been hardly secure post the cure changes a while back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louispv
And mules job? White Mage is stuck so hard in the mule's spot that you'll often see WHM/THF over THF, and the term "solo" often means "with my White Mage mule".
The time of the pink birds and the pink mages... those were dark times indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Damane
To address the OP, you'd probably prefer longer timers and better damage on Sneak Attack and Trick Attack instead so you don't eat it on white damage. -
12-25-2013, 09:42 AMLouispvRDM was never the top healer. You needed Curagas and Cure V for anything hard. Even in merit parties, the RDM had to be constantly casting and managing mp to stretch their mp over convert's recast, while the WHM could stick regen on the puller, regen on the DD who sucked at reapplying shadows, and then take a knee because healing's covered until that wears. Then SCH dropped RDM from second best healer to third, and after that WHM/SCH dropped it from 3rd best healer to solo job. Increasing level and enemy damage output, without increasing RDM healing ability basically took them from a healer to "Odd gear that BLU is wearing." Good thing Enfeebling's back, or RDM would be right here next to the THF's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Damane
WAR's always been on top. At the beginning it was the only tank job. Then it was the only acceptable DD because of rampage-spam. Then it was the only acceptable DD because it had everything /WAR gives and everything /NIN gives at once, while every other DD had one or the other because it had all of /WAR and all of /SAM at once, when everyone else had one or the other. Then every single event needed one for 2/3 of the abyssea procs. Then every single group needed them for 1/2 of the voidwatch procs. Even after that, with every DD tanking and DDing at once, the WAR can DD as well as the other DD's, and has retaliation/provoke to make it a slightly better tank, too! Only in the cases of obviously broken, soon fixed problems was it not #1, and it was always the clear #2 then anyway. (shoot and stab RNG's and OatMNKs)
And COR, really? In a game that requires several buffers to do anything well, that has never had even half enough of them, no one has ever turned down a COR. I have shown up in a subligar and a gun, and nothing else, and I haven't been kicked or asked to change. And the COR buffs didn't need to be buffed until increased skill from increased level made BRD songs stronger, while COR's static numbers fell behind. Prior to that COR's buffs were stronger than BRD's, and you ended up disbanding a party if you didn't get at least one of each.
But the point was, every job got a day in the sun, or have never left the sun, except THF. Even freaking DNC got to be useful in merit parties for Haste samba, and that's basically a better replacement THF. -
12-26-2013, 03:14 AMmattkokoI very much agree with this point. However, I am going to look at the other side of the coin and say that SE created that mentality when abyssea came out and new players were able to leech every job to 99. During all of the abyssea launches, it was not uncommon to see people level capped with no subjob. I am not trying to give the elitists and excuse for only looking for certain jobs. Some of them have always been like that. But there has been a dramatic increase in the mentality since abyssea came out. It is alright to be a casual player, but there is a difference between casual, and having no clue of the mechanics of the game. And now we have an entirely new breed of players who THINK they are elite. They think the best way is the only way. Now, I understand that there has always been people like this, but now it is even more so. Back in the old days, even before level sync, you were almost forced to be flexible, unless you wanted to wait around for the perfect set up for hours (sometimes days). Now we have new Elitists that don't know all of the mechanics of the game because they never bothered to figure them out, so they only know one way of doing something. Abyssea created this. You are suppose to learn the mechanics as you level. Trial and error. Now there is never a trial until they get to endgame. And they think just because they got lucky in an endgame event, that is the only way it must be done. Then there are the real elites, that actually know the mechanics, but they are afraid of getting this new breed of noobs, so they only look for the people with the best gear, with hopes they actually know what they are doing. And even then, it is rare they find that, which pushes them to look even harder. And although I hate that mentality, I understand that mentality because no one wants to go to an event just to wipe. Especially when it is an event where only the alliance leader needs the item and did all of the work to get it. The last thing they want to do is invite people that are too lazy to even know what that item is and waste it. With all of this said, you can't compare running an endgame ls now to an endgame ls in old ffxi. The simple fact is, then, you were forced to learn the mechanics as you level. Now, all you have to do is sit around and/or hit the forbidden key macro to open chests. Which is perfect. They go to an endgame event, all they know how to do is open the reward chest. You don't even need a key for that. You just need to win the event. Good luck with that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiyara
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12-29-2013, 02:22 PMUlth
I'm just returning to the game, so I apologize in advance if my understanding of the game is not up to date.
I have some suggestions to balance out THF. Though I don't feel that the recast timers should just be cut. That is too easy and I feel they THF should have to do some work for it. I propose a high level job trait that will let haste affect the cool down time of job abilities like how it affects magic recast timers. Not just THF job abilities either, but the THF's sub job too. Hopefully that will make for some more interesting sub job combinations, which I think would be neat. Naturally special job abilities like two hours won't be affected. Probably the one hours too. It should also help out with my next point.
Aura steal is a pain to use. I am no stranger to trying to dispell something annoying like ice spikes and getting a cruddy bonechip. From the way I understand how the ability works, it only does an aura steal if the regular steal misses. I feel it should aura steal if the item is stolen or not. That way you can get both the item and a buff. That in combination with a shortened cooldown from the trait above should make aura steal dispelling a viable option. Also EVERY buff in the game should have some chance of being stolen. I understand that in some cases stealing the power would be crazy broken, but it should just have a very low chance of success like 0.5%. That way it would almost never happen, but every now and then you will hear a story about the time a THF stole it and briefly became a god.
Next up is despoil and mug. Every mob in the game should have a despoil list. Even if the item is just junk no one wants, it still should have one and get a debuff from having it stolen. Mug, while getting a little extra gil is nice, not many monsters actually drop gil. That's why it needs to be a little more offensive. It is called mug, so it is only fitting the mob gets bashed over the head and stunned.
I get that the problems with changing THF, especially the money gathering skills is having to worry about RMT. However just because some players want to abuse this, does not mean that good players should get the short end. One thing that can be done to make it less appealing to RMT is to make it a +96 ability so if they want to use it they have to do the level 95 limit break. Also it could be changed so mobs can only have each item and gil stolen once, though extra uses will still cause the battle effects of aura steal, despoil debuffs, and stun.
I hope these changes aren't so drastic that it would require large changes to the game code. I tried to make the changes easy to implement. However I feel they would be a great step to improving THF endgame functionality.
Oh and I also agree that treasure hunter should affect everything treasure related instead of only normal drops. Oh and if you already ninja-ed that into the game without people knowing, at least give a hint so people try to test it, or at least make the more superstitious players think it does. -
01-15-2014, 08:42 AMEaglestrike
Here are two options to fix THF:
First: Damage dealing fix.
1) Make our crit rate increase faster than other jobs via DEX and not be capped (maybe make twice as useful in dDEX calculations and make +30% crit the max bonus via DEX). Probably could/should make this a dagger trait itself, as DNC, melee brd/rdm/etc. could make some use of this as well.
2) Increase Assassin to not only make TA a critical hit, but make it so every one of our weapon skills can critical hit. Our weapon skills cannot compete with the other jobs because they get multi-hit WS's with a good mod that can crit, our best version of that is evisceration, with only 30% DEX mod to couple with our weak base DMG from daggers. If Mercy Stroke / Rudra's could crit unstacked, they could be used more regularly. If exenterator could crit it would hold up better vs victory smite / shoha / etc. even though it still would not beat them generally.
3) Give us an AOE damage reduction of sorts. Not a lot is needed, but our evasion doesn't hold up so well vs other jobs that get much higher defense and hp when it comes to the big fights.
Second option: Hate control.
1) Make Trick Attack "siphon" enmity. Make it not only produce enmity from our next strike, but "give" our enmity to someone else. We have a 1min cooldown on collaborator, all that REALLY does is give a DD some hate-free attacks, and make us the tank for a short while. If we could steal hate from a DD, then give that hate to the PLD, we would be very useful as we'd make PLD the tank again, and we'd make it so more than just monks can DD and survive.
2) Make Hide work on EVERYTHING. Including BCNM bosses. And make it 3min cooldown max, preferably 90s.
Either of these options is fine alone, both are not needed, really. Either make us competitive DD's so groups can see our value, or make us that truly useful hate control job you attempted to throw on us a good chunk of the game. I don't mind so much either way, other than this is an ABSOLUTE MUST CHANGE:
Native subtle blow. We attack as much as anyone else, even more in certain gear sets, and we still need a subjob and gear to acquire ANY subtle blow. We're thieves, subtle is kind of our thing. Seriously, SE, I don't want to get my alliance killed because I want to play my job. -
02-17-2014, 08:44 AMStify
Hello all new to the forums, But just to add my 2 cents... i think which the game evolving to a more fast pace content reducing the SA/TA timers could impact THF's DD in a very positive way.10-20 second timers would be amazing.
Even if timers can't be lowered could it be possible to increase the damage of SA and TA? -
02-17-2014, 10:14 AMRaydeus
Yeah, the one thing I'd like to see is a reduction in SA/TA/Hide timers along with Hide also applying for sound instead of just sight.
Other than that I can't really say much since I've been allergic to "end game" grind crap since forever. If there's End-Game LS requirements to an activity then I have no interest whatsoever in it.
d(^^d) -
02-17-2014, 03:34 PMSelindrile
One could fix Thf by upping their damage, and they should probably get something along this line, but I'd much rather see Thf as someone who can totally control enmity, I think it would be very cool if they revamped things a bit.
Imagine if Accomplice/Collaborator had lower timers, stole more enmity, and/or were revamped a bit as follows.
I use Collaborator to steal 25% of my DD's 1000 (just to have a number to work with) enmity, so I now have 250 more enmity, I get a buff to represent this (250 Enmity), I can either click this buff off, making the enmity I stole vanish into thin air, OR if I use Trick Attack while I have this buff active, I can then transfer that buff to the tank in front of me when my hit lands. Would also be spiffy if this buff, while active surpassed the enmity cap.
Hide could give 4-5 seconds of invulnerability and/or clear aggro (think ala Drg's Super Jump), and if you did something that made you lose invisibility, you'd also lose the invulnerability. -
02-17-2014, 11:49 PMTennotsukaiGotta agree with this. I prefer more hate control in most end game like AA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Selindrile
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02-21-2014, 02:07 AMStify
I'd certainly like to keep this topic fresh and busy so that we can bring some awareness to the topic because quite frankly I would hate to work on a Vajra just to be told that "THF is for TH only" and never get to play the job in anything other can salvage II and Dyna... at this point im begging that we work togehter to bring the awareness that's the main reason I got off the unofficial sites and came directly to the one that can make a differance.
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02-27-2014, 08:26 AMCamate
Greetings,
We had a word with the lead developer for jobs and received some information to share.
While this is still in the idea phase and there is no guarantee for actual implementation, one idea for thief adjustment is to enhance their role as a job that controls the flow of enmity. The team is thinking in terms of lowering the recast timer for Collaborator and adding a way to transfer the hate stolen from both Collaborator and Accomplice.
The lead also mentioned that since a reduction of the recast timers for Sneak Attack and Trick Attack would also boost thief’s attack capability in addition to their control over enmity, they would have to look into this very carefully.
Again, please understand that this is all still in the idea phase and the team cannot make any promises at this time. If we receive any further information we’ll be sure to share. :) -
02-27-2014, 08:43 AMKarbuncle
Awesome Camate, here's some ideas I posted some years ago on this Forum thats been lost to the passage of time, i recently re-stated them after hearing them again from someone here on the forums!
Obvious I don't believe they will give us this kind of mastery as I'll even admit to it being a tad on the powerful side, but the ideas are there, and I'm glad, even if my ideas all that time ago wasn't the catalyst for their decision in this matter, that they're going down this path.Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
A boost to Enmity flow and Damage is a step in the right direction :D -
02-27-2014, 09:53 AMAtaraxia
Wow this is great news for Thief and I like this a lot. reduction on recast timer for sneak attack and trick attack is awesome :). It would be nice if a thief that have enmity stolen from player using collaborator and accomplice be transfer using a Trick Attack + Weapon Skill on pld. I have been thief for a long time and I have use Thief on Ark angel fight and thief job are good for their TH. However, I find myself having enmity even after i Trick Attack + Weapon skill. I'm not sure if that's a bug or Trick Attack + Ws doesn't give much enmity at all.
There was a post earlier but i can't find it anymore on people that want a new TH knife? Anyways instead of making a new TH knife i would like TH to be cap by using gear on TH8. I know Camate mention that on post. TH should be cap at TH8 this can be done if Relic 119 gloves offer + TH 3 Or Empyrean feet + 2 soon to be 119 have +2 TH that way there be no need for a TH knife anymore. Instead of making a new TH knife it be nice to see a Asteria, Coruscanti, Twilight Knife item level 119 and even better if Ranger can equip these Dagger since Jishnu's Radiance are DEX mod and If not possible maybe they should add new axe that have DEX in them because most of the time there is only AGI Axe for Ranger. These afterglow weapons are very cool and I hope something cool is being done to them in the future update.
This might be off topic but Camate Dnc are job hit very fast and they are very good support for tank but dnc will get alot of enmity that will come from Curing and Melee. I was thinking about if you make a Ja for Dnc that remove enmity for Dnc or Give that Enmity to a pld. I thought Karbuncle have a very interesting Post on Thief. If for some reason Dnc can't deal with getting Enmity than a Thief and Dnc have to stick together for every event :). -
02-27-2014, 11:26 AMSpankWustlerQuote:
Originally Posted by Camate
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02-27-2014, 02:23 PMCalatilla
If you still consider enmity part of a THF's main party role why did you give the ability to strip an entire partie`s hate and plant it onto 1 person to SCH and not THF? I understand SCH is supposed to be a tactical mage but it only has 2 spells that have anything to do with enmity, compared to what a THF has.
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02-27-2014, 03:15 PMZiraelHow does that help if the enmity system is broken in general? Tanks lose hate 20 seconds into battle or you just stack rangers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
Annihilator (and to lesser extent Yoichinoyumi) exist. Pet jobs hateless damage. Scholar's SP ability. Wildfire. List goes on.
Pointless.
At least we're not Red Mages. -
02-28-2014, 01:28 AMKari
Thief needs more than just enmity control, which is almost useless btw.
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02-28-2014, 02:10 AMSelindrile
Or better enmity control, as I and some others have proposed.
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02-28-2014, 02:21 AMBlah
Not that enmity control isn't good but I hope that isn't the only thing they have planned for thief.
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02-28-2014, 04:07 AMAlexandero
Blah is right, No one is going to shout for a THF because solely on Enmity Control.
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02-28-2014, 05:02 AMKarbuncle
They also mention reducing SA/TA Recast timers, and frankly that would be a nice boost to THF. Even if it was to 50 or 45 seconds, it'd still add a good margin to their DPS.
Lets be honest, THF isn't MNK, but a good THF is still a good DD, if they could managed making THF more offensive through SATA Recasts and give them the ability to plant hate firmly on the tank often enough, It could find its way into event that focus around "Low enmity" generation. People say Annihilator and Yoichi exist, but those are only useful because of their hate mitigation. If THF could control enmity in any meaningful way, You could invite a MNK or WAR instead, do more damage, and not have to really worry about Enmity cause the THF could control it.
Your thoughts are too narrowed, people only use the RNG method cause of the same enmity control, If THF could do this job, other DD could make their way into the party and RNGs would be replaced with a THF/DD set up instead. The Thief however, would need to not be sh*t tier, and of course have balling gear same as any DD, it would not be a half-assed job. -
02-28-2014, 09:38 AMBlahI'm not narrow-minded I just think that JUST enmity control is too, ah narrow-minded. Plenty of people have suggested lots of good things (stances come to mind, so does my ideas) and all they come in to say is they're looking at enmity control for the future of thief. Not that that is for sure the direction they're taking but...lot of good ideas are going to fall to the wayside if they do that and only that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
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02-28-2014, 10:42 AMKarbuncleWell to put it bluntly, the game doesn't need another DD job... Not that you're suggesting a Damage buff would be better than enmity control, I'm just stating for the record it wouldn't be. Any damage boost we get would not put us on par with MNK, and in that case in the eyes of the narrow-minded community, we'd still be a dead job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah
If THF is going to get anywhere its going to have to be through good solid utility. Enmity control is actually an important factor these days, again which is why RNG is even used... since its got Decoy Shot and WS like Namas and Coronoch which have very low enmity outputs.
Its clear SE is very finicky about THF, so much so they're afraid to even give the job Subtle Blow, any changes, even "initial stages" bring hope to me for the jobs future. While Enmity control is no the path I'd like THF to take in its entirety (I personally think THFs should have JAs that utilize tools like Quick Draw, like "Traps and Bombs" that damage and inflict ailments and such), its a step in the right direction for me.
The reduction of SA and TA would be nice too, hich even if its a side effect of them pushing us toward Enmity control, would be a wonderful step.
I'd like to hope for more but one does not look a gift horse in the mouth. if SE can do something useful with Enmity control and THF, it just opens up more possibilities for us to explore with the job, which in my eyes, is nothing but a good thing. -
02-28-2014, 05:20 PMSpankWustler
Here's a long post I made while trying to get FFXI to work on my new Windows 8 setup. It's long and pointless and nobody should read it. Go look up a recipe for stuffed mushrooms instead and read that and you'll be happier and a better person.
I think the game itself being so straight and narrow in many ways is a big part of why every Shouty Shamus McMacroscanchangemypantsididnotknowthat takes such a close-minded view of hitting stuff in the evil crotch. Dealing melee damage is pretty much just getting your delay down, getting your attack up, then making the right choice between one of two ideal weaponskills: the one that performs 10-20% better when your attack remains uncapped and the higher fTP option that performs better 10-20% when your attack is capped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
I would just launch straight into a weird and sad poop metaphor from here, but the recent string of adjustments to things related to or totally unaffected by delay reduction make me think the Development Bros are finally starting to grasp how killing stuff in FFXI has happened more or less from Treasures of Aht Urhgan forward.
Optimistically:
Thief is already used for some strategies where bros need to play it super-duper safe, such as fighting a single Very Hard arch-angel with two Ninjas as the melee. I could see a niche opening up for Thief if the job had far more enmity control than Ranger or Scholar at the cost of needing to be in AoE range to contribute much of anything. It would probably be something like the niches occupied by Ranger or Paladin, which aren't terrible places to be as long as there's a decent variety of content that actually gives that niche role a place and purpose.
That would also mean that Thief could play even more differently than a Monk who renounced The Divine Order of the Punching Fist to join The Enlightened Way of the Poking Knife. This seems vaguely relevant, since Monk-lite was the optimal way to play Dancer in many situations from the day Dual-Wield made Dancer useful for anything at all until the massive adjustment to Waltz recasts made Dancer valid as actual support.
Pessimistically:
Damage is done in the same clear-cut and straight-forward way across all melee jobs and enmity is pointless in some situations. Thus, it's a dark and bitter task to make a melee job that messes with enmity desirable without just tacking on a carbon-copy of Berserk or Last Resort or Impetus. It doesn't help that some bro among the Development Bros still thinks Treasure Hunter is the best thing since inflatable girlfriends in spite of more and more magical pants coming from chests and/or point-systems and/or key items and/or terrible random Wildskeeper Rieve reward pools and/or [insert other drop mechanic not affect by Treasure Hunter here] as FFXI's years roll on; and in spite of Treasure Hunter doing nothing to make Thief more fun, complex, or interesting to use in combat.
Seeing this change announced is like that sinking feeling that a friend with severe Crohn's disease will poop in the bed they've made rather than sleep in it. The only hope is that this time, the poop will be so foul and effluent that anyone witness to it will feel amusement and disgust rather than pity. Also, maybe it'll leak into the apartment below onto the stuff of that jerk who plays dub-step and witch house at all hours. I have no idea where this metaphor is going anymore.
tl;dnr version:
Stuffed mushrooms. Ugh, poke that niche! Effluent poop. -
03-22-2014, 11:35 PMMikkel
Personally, i'd like to see SA and TA share a recast timer (dont go crazy yet) and then have the recast cut in half... so you could TA-> TA or SA->SA depending on what you're doing, but in the same period of time you can SA and TA now.
Then change the merits to 'tricks recast' -1 sec/merit to effect both SA and TA and 'Enhanced Assassin' which would transfer 5% of your total enmity/merit to a total of 25% to your TA target. With this change you could actually manage hate in a party and it would give THF more flexibility. -
03-23-2014, 10:17 AMKarbuncle
At first glance, I actively dislike that idea as it throws away a major damage spike we get... combined SATAWS. Which while not completely practical, has its applications.
I get what you're going for, and i like the principle of your idea... I just don't feel I'd want to give up the spike potential of SATAWS as an exchange. Though, I do see the potential in a ~25s SA or TA however... Honestly I'd say this is a tough call, In the long run I can see your idea being better for us. Hmmm, I mean it could be worth the trade off, but I doubt that kind of deep job change will make its way into THF.
And if they're looking to reduce SA/TA Timers, i'd rather bank my chances on them deciding to keep them separate and on 30 second timers lol