Incentive for players to help with delve key item NMs

I seen a lot of returning players lately shouting for delve NMs to get the key items for the delve weapons. Now these people are shouting all day pretty much but have a hard time getting people to join. Problem is there is almost no incentive for someone who has already beat that NM to help out in a single NM KI clear.

Manly do to the fact these give 500 plasma which is almost nothing. To give incentive to help out I would increase the rewards on these, maybe up the plasm rate.

No. Here's why.
People will just spam the turtle 24/7.
No one will get their KI unless they only want the turtle.
Funny how that's what is already happening.

See, I thought about this myself. I think for T1~3 they should give 2.5k Plasm, while T4~5 should give 3250 Plasm, 5 times the amount of now. It would not allow people to really spam these for easier Plasm. Also, change the guaranteed drop system, inside of a fracture, it should be a chance, outside it should be a guaranteed drop. By doing these you make the outside battles more rewarding, inside you only kill NMs for either a small Plasm spike with some extra drops, like Mata, or your going for the boss. In the case of going for the boss, you would be getting 30~70k Plasm from the boss itself I think, so you are talking about getting a much larger gain that way anyways. The items being a 100% drop inside when its more of a side thing is kinda dumb, it should be a 100% outside because your going out of your way to fight them I think.

In either case, I agree, and I would like to see the rewards changed to be better as to get more people to help out.

Outside NMs shout be conciderably weaker and have conciderably less drops. Their purpose is for gaining KI, the rest is superfluous.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

Outside NMs shout be conciderably weaker and have conciderably less drops. Their purpose is for gaining KI, the rest is superfluous.

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A thousand times, this!
I tried Ceizak's T1 and T2 and the fight is just protracted and frustrating rather than difficult.
It's almost as if the fight is pitched to be slightly longer than the allowed time and it's annoying. I have zero interest in 99% of the drops.
It also stands at baffling odds with Wildskeeper Reives, which can continue for stupidly long periods. If people want to fight the fracture NM, why give them a stupidly small window of opportunity? (The answer is clearly because the KI is a guaranteed drop and forcing players to repeat efforts to get it means the progression is slower and, therefore, content lasts longer.)

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

See, I thought about this myself. I think for T1~3 they should give 2.5k Plasm, while T4~5 should give 3250 Plasm, 5 times the amount of now. It would not allow people to really spam these for easier Plasm. Also, change the guaranteed drop system, inside of a fracture, it should be a chance, outside it should be a guaranteed drop. By doing these you make the outside battles more rewarding, inside you only kill NMs for either a small Plasm spike with some extra drops, like Mata, or your going for the boss. In the case of going for the boss, you would be getting 30~70k Plasm from the boss itself I think, so you are talking about getting a much larger gain that way anyways. The items being a 100% drop inside when its more of a side thing is kinda dumb, it should be a 100% outside because your going out of your way to fight them I think.

In either case, I agree, and I would like to see the rewards changed to be better as to get more people to help out.

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that makes no sense, you can get KIs inside or outside. for people that dont have KIs inside is the better option. They have more time on the fight itself (45 min instead of 20 min on T1-3 and 30 min insead fo 20 min for T4-T5), they only need to get clean pulls and if they defeated it they get a 100% item drop. I dont see the fuzz about this, delve should allways be done inside no matter what the target/goal is, outside is really only for bead farming (that are not anymore needed anyway!).

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Originally Posted by Damane

that makes no sense, you can get KIs inside or outside. for people that dont have KIs inside is the better option. They have more time on the fight itself (45 min instead of 20 min on T1-3 and 30 min insead fo 20 min for T4-T5), they only need to get clean pulls and if they defeated it they get a 100% item drop. I dont see the fuzz about this, delve should allways be done inside no matter what the target/goal is, outside is really only for bead farming (that are not anymore needed anyway!).

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I have actually asked someone who was making a shout group for outside fights once why don't they do it inside. Because they said its takes more time to get everyone to the spot so you run out of time. Which really is more of a lack of organization then anything.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I have actually asked someone who was making a shout group for outside fights once why don't they do it inside. Because they said its takes more time to get everyone to the spot so you run out of time. Which really is more of a lack of organization then anything.

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I disagree on that being a lack of organization. I side on the time issue, not because the person doing it runs out of time, but who knows how many members of the run. As all it takes for a shout group to fall apart is the wrong person leaving at the wrong time. Has nothing to do with the organization, but with everyone's schedules not being identical.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I have actually asked someone who was making a shout group for outside fights once why don't they do it inside. Because they said its takes more time to get everyone to the spot so you run out of time. Which really is more of a lack of organization then anything.

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Well, if it's t4/t5 like kurma, it takes time to knock out the first 3 nms. Plus there's the havoc of how to handle the trash. If you have a solid dd/pld in a dt kit, they can grab everything but you still need people to stick together. You'll waste 20/45 minutes before you even get to t4/t5 and then you have to hope the NM you're after is the one you encounter.

That means having to explain the strats for 4 nm's, rather than one, and keep people from ragequitting when the randoms screw it up.

Alternatively, of course, you can just wait the 15 mins, while people try to stay alive, and go find the nm. I wouldn't want to do either with a pug.

For T1~3 I understand how inside is better, to an extent. You still have to deal with normal mobs aggroing, the potential poor positioning of the NMs, and finding where they are in the first place, all before you get to the fight itself, as well as having to bring someone to sacrifice themselves, wasting a spot in the party for a nice chunk of time. So far as T4~5. Not only do you wait 15 minutes, you have a good chance of having a ton of mobs in your way, possibly even a NM in the way, then once you gather together at the right spot you have to do buffs, pull the NM clean so your not wasting your buff durations, and fight it as you normally would. To me, this all seems like to much of a time killer to really be worth the extra 10 minutes, that, and more of an annoyance if you fail, because unlike outside, where if you fail you just recover & pop again, instantly in the fight, you have to recover, then go back in and completely restart the fracture!

Simply improving the outside fights to the point of making them more appealing so that people are willing & wanting to do them sounds better to me. Right now, SE's reasoning for wanting to do the Bead fights have failed, why do Beads when you get more Plasm simply killing every NM in the zone, and its possible to do at the same time. No one cares about Beads, so no one does outside NMs to help people really, that, and even if you did it outside for the Bead, who would you take, a party of people without Delve weapons who are subpar by compare to your people your going to do the boss run with anyways, or take the people your doing the boss run with and smash the thing?

One thing I still contend needs done in the first place is an update to make the timer outside 30 minutes rather than 20, which would give you the same amount of time as inside from when the wall goes down. That with the other changes I suggested would make the outside NMs worth doing to a point, and easier for those behind on it still.

Hey, remember ?

SE quoted - This Delve is asking people who has done this, be nice to help any new comers!

SE believed that we are nice people, and having faith on us. Let's do it ! lmfao !

do you know the word "Sac-pulling". You can do that inside delve tooo!! like in olde dynamis.

So waste a party slot just for sac pulling so I can fight inside rather than outside, or waste time waiting on someone to sac & return to I can buff them too? No, that's stupid, I would not waste a spot or extra time on a person just to sac pull when I could simply fight outside, have that extra DD while not having to do the extra moving, grouping, and dealing with the mobs or NMs in the way.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

So waste a party slot just for sac pulling so I can fight inside rather than outside, or waste time waiting on someone to sac & return to I can buff them too? No, that's stupid, I would not waste a spot or extra time on a person just to sac pull when I could simply fight outside, have that extra DD while not having to do the extra moving, grouping, and dealing with the mobs or NMs in the way.

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I got all my NM kills the first week delve was out. First of all sac pulling does work, you usually have the brd do it. When people only had relic and empyreans it was a lot more easier to go inside and do the 30 min T4 and T5 NM. You have to keep people from wandering off. The wall which brakes areas usually void of any monsters. So what you do is you send a bard and one person to pull your target NM ahead of everyone else to pull what you want to fight. After the sac pull is made the brd can get back and do songs again.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I got all my NM kills the first week delve was out.

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THIS is the problem.

I would like to do Delve KI NMs, but I don't have any Delve weapon so I can't join any of the shouts.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I got all my NM kills the first week delve was out.

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Originally Posted by Solonuke

I would like to do Delve KI NMs, but I don't have any Delve weapon so I can't join any of the shouts.

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And the pattern continues.

One solution for returning/new players to get KI is to make delve T1~T5 NM runs. Killing 5NM in fracture gives 10k plasm and KI if I remember correctly, so that's pretty good incentive for ppl with clears. 5 NM is actually killable with PUG even with 1 leech, if you make your own ally you can probably just occupy the leech spot.

Of course you need to know a lot about this game, need to have connections, and how to organize a proper fracture NM run. Which may not be doable for newer players.

I also think killing 5 NMs in fracture should give 30k instead of 10k, and killing boss with 5 NM gives 30k~40k instead of 60k. Right now if you kill 5 NMs and boss, you get 70k total, 60k came from boss. So boss kill became make or break in terms of plasm farm efficency.....a group that can kill boss and 5 NM makes plasm 7 times faster than a group that can kill 5 NM but 1 miss stun and wiped with 10 min left.

The result is, anyone with boss clear won't bother to join a PUG 5 NM+boss group, just because most likely they'd ended up getting 10k or less, instead of 70k.

Killing 5 NM in fracture is ass easy even with PUG, killing 5 NM+boss is not, at least not until next update. If killing 5 NM gives 30k, and extra 40k for boss clear after 5 NM, every PUG can probably get good player to help easy, because ppl with delve boss LS and clear are likely to join for plasm. If killing 5 NM only gives 10k, nobody with clear/delve boss group would be interested to join for 10k plasm a run.

I know I rarely join PUG boss group, because the plasm and effort is just not worth it. If I know I'd get 30k even if boss fails, I'd be more interested to join. If you can reliably get well geared ppl by making PUG fracture NM group, getting KI wouldn't be an issue IMO.

Or even simpler. No timer on the outdoor poppable NMs.
It's blatantly obvious that securing the numbers and willingness is a major factor in getting these KIs. Therefore it makes the most sense to limit the number of repeated attempts people with the KIs will have tpo put in when helping others.
I've been in groups and fought NMs down to 1% just to see them despawn, WAY too often.
This just seems like the simplest way of opening up this playing field.

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Originally Posted by Afania

I also think killing 5 NMs in fracture should give 30k instead of 10k

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On this note, killing wildspeakers should get you 30k plasm. They are fracture bossess after all.

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Originally Posted by bloodbeat

Or even simpler. No timer on the outdoor poppable NMs.

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No, they lowered it to 20 for a very good reason, but that reason is somewhat moot now due to people's gear. When you need this specifc NM for it's KI, what right do other players have to spend 7 hours fighting it raged while you can do nothing but wait your turn to pop?
Yes.
They can just add more ??? to each of them. The 20min timer was also part of the new "foster more skillfull playing" campaign.

It is really freaking simple like has been posted over and over just extend the time limit. The damage has already been done when it took the devs far too long to fix being able to just fight though rage. There is not any great congestion to fight these mobs for beads when the shells that are able to kill the bosses kill all the NMs anyway and so what if there is wouldn't that achieve the same goal to slow down players.

If your problem is no delve weapons... just do WKR.... three kills from each WKR and you get your choice of a weapon from those NMs you can farm armour by doing WKR multiple times...

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Originally Posted by bloodbeat

Or even simpler. No timer on the outdoor poppable NMs.
It's blatantly obvious that securing the numbers and willingness is a major factor in getting these KIs. Therefore it makes the most sense to limit the number of repeated attempts people with the KIs will have tpo put in when helping others.
I've been in groups and fought NMs down to 1% just to see them despawn, WAY too often.
This just seems like the simplest way of opening up this playing field.

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It's actually very easy to kill those NMs in 5 min, IF you get the right jobs and gears. However, not be able to get right jobs and gears in ally is the biggest challenge. The better way to solve the issue is to provide incentives for ppl with clears/better gears/right jobs to help, so everyone gets clears in 5 min. Instead of /shout for 3hr, fill up the ally with wrong jobs because you can't get right jobs, using pre-SoA gears, and spend 3hr killing the NM due to wrong jobs and bad gears.

Incentives won't help people needing the KI. It will either be to small to get anyone interested in helping or to large and LSs will burn the NMs down as fast as they can, meaning not inviting those with out delve weapons. As for fighting the mobs for long periods of time just make them were they don't rage and increase the time limit to 45 mins. Later down the road the mobs them selves could be nerfed down to get any returning/new/lazy people though or they will not be needed and can be skipped altogether kinda like they have been doing with older content for the past few years.