So earlier today I got a Soothsayer Staff and upgraded it to rank 9, for a total of +62 MAB and +17 INT... To my disappointment, however, it doesn't beat my magian staves... somehow...
I've looked around a bunch and there are lots of people that seem to have made similar discoveries, mentioning that the multipliers between the two are different and having a specific amount of MAB in gear will be multiplied by the magic affinity on the magian staff, and create a situation where magian wins... I could understand that, but I don't have as much MAB in gear as they're saying it would require... I chose to focus on Conserve MP, m.acc., and INT for my BLM's gear...
I went to abyssea and played around for an hour or so, thinking maybe there's some sort of MAB cap that no one has recognized before (ignoring the supposition that primeval brews add 900 MAB, many have supposed that using a brew allows certain caps to be surpassed anyway...)... I used different combinations of Ultimate (+50MAB), Beyond (+60MAB), and Hells Guardian (+50MAB) atmas, only casting ice spells and using shore spiders the whole time (supposedly they have low ice resistance) and found that the numbers just don't add up...
With no gear swaps (using soothsayer) and +100 MAB from atmas i was doing ~4400 dmg... with +110 MAB that went to ~5500 dmg... with +160 MAB it only went to ~6000 dmg...
Keeping atmas constant (at +160 MAB) and switching between the two staves, magian staff always won very slightly... (usually by about 100 dmg...)
Before anyone suggests it: No, there were no day/weather conflicts with any of these trials... yes, I did several trails to make sure there were no set procs or resists happening...
There's something very odd going on with Soothsayer Staff, and I'm wondering if anyone knows what that is exactly...
Can someone official confirm that this staff is working properly?
Soothsayer Staff -- Working as intended?
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06-07-2013, 03:11 PMRushLynxSoothsayer Staff -- Working as intended?
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06-07-2013, 04:21 PMZagen
This isn't an official response but it should help you out.
Magic Attack Bonus and Magic Affinity are 2 separate values and they are applied at different stages of calculating magic damage. Atma of the Beyond gives Magic Attack Bonus +30 and Ice Magic Affinity +30 (equivalent to Damage affinity +5 on TotM staves).
Because they are separate as well as the fact a BLM has no Magic Affinity damage bonus naturally adding Magic Affinity has a greater impact on damage.
Hopefully that helps if you'd like a more detailed break down one can be found here: http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Magic_Damage -
06-08-2013, 11:51 PMChimerawizard
Not an official response either, but I made a spreadsheet on google drive that calculates magic dmg.
It doesn't include ebulliance ormagic burstbut I think I got everything else in there to work.
easy mob (70 int) (normal mob 100 int) (tough mob 130 int). on the 2nd tab there's a method for approximating enemy int & mdb (really mdb&mdt combined).
If you look at Kaustra or Meteor on the right side, they will get better dmg w/ soothsayer easily. Helix's and many low tier nukes will too.
Oh, right. My calculator doesn't change the formula for extreme dINT terms. Only the formula used when dINT has not hit the inflection point is used, so if you enter say, stone & a dINT is 60, the dmg listed and actual dmg will be greatly off since I didn't get that far into writing it yet.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...FE&usp=sharing
I'll try to collaborate with some friends who know programing to make a live webpage when the new magic dmg formula has been determined & include everything.
EDIT: added Magic Burst & Magic Burst Bonus to the calculator. -
06-09-2013, 05:46 AMRushLynxI was actually looking for something like this the other day when I was getting puzzling results from my experimentation... no one really has a functioning program or spreadsheet for calculating these sorts of things...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimerawizard
As you've noticed, it's pretty much impossible to account for everything server-side... mob stats, including MND, INT, MDB, etc. are difficult to know... and as far as I know, no one has determined all of these factors for a specific mob, otherwise it would be nice to have a standardized go-to mob to do tests on.
I was planning on doing a more formalized test of my findings between magian and soothsayer staves this weekend, but I'm overburdened with other work at the moment and won't be able to... at least not this weekend. The other thing is, with the elemental magic updates on the horizon, all of the data will be obsolete to some extent...
I didn't mention it in the original post, but I just wanted to note that it's really bizare how (if the staff is working properly) they decided to make Soothsayer Staff the only delve weapon that didn't blow all previous weapons (magian included) out of the water... I realize that there are benefits to Soothsayer even if magians beat it slightly damage wise... (TP gained from nukes, Comet and Meteor damage, etc.) but magian staves should still be the favored staves for the casting reductions if nothing else... When the new elemental magic updates hit, cumulative magic effects are going to be crazy powerful for NMs what with the casting time and recast reductions, and BLMs are going to find a great deal of value in pumping as much cast/recast reductions into their equipment... -
06-09-2013, 07:17 AMRaksha
Which job were you? BLM? Using any of those atmas along with the native 40 MAB that BLM has, would put you close to the amount of MAB that would make magians win over soothsayer.
A better test would be to nuke things outside of abyssea. -
06-09-2013, 08:11 AMRushLynxI used it against mobs outside of abyssea first... like crabs in valkurm... magian still won by a few damage every time...Quote:
Originally Posted by Raksha
I was gonna try mobs in adoulin today but I haven't had a chance to... I'm guessing it doesn't really make a difference unless, maybe, the mob has a considerable MDB modifier... To that end it would probably be worth the time to go find something that can put shell on itself... -
06-09-2013, 09:16 AMZagenIf you're testing on BLM you're likely never going to see Soothsayer pull ahead without skewing the tests in it's favor. Magic Pots or PLDs who cast Shell IV for example will likely have Soothsayer pulling ahead.Quote:
Originally Posted by RushLynx
It even at Rank 15 doesn't have enough MAB to beat TotM staves. It depends on the target but you'd need in the ball park of 100-110 MAB to beat TotM staves. As I said Magic Affinity is it's own step in the formula and because a BLM gets 0 Affinity traits it will usually make a much larger impact. Once the formula gets it's final changes this might change. -
06-09-2013, 09:57 AMDemon6324236
Yeah, with INT having more of an impact(if it does, I honestly do not understand all that they mean with those updates as I have never looked into and focused on nuking formulas) then it would have a better chance with the 20INT on it in the end as well.
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06-21-2013, 01:52 AMJerbob
To be honest I think this is just one of the many indications that SE really doesn't have a clue how spellcasting jobs work. Even when they actively try to make a useful weapon (eg Laevateinn) they fail spectacularly.
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06-21-2013, 02:33 AMDemon6324236
I would not say spell casting, but rather nuking. They seem to have problems understanding their own equations make it so that a % increase from affinity will almost always beat out a single large boost in MAB no matter how large it really is. Right now we have a potentially 65MAB staff with 20INT on it and we are still talking about how Magian Trial Staffs beat it in some cases, that, is in and of itself, messed up. At the same time, they seem to refuse any ideas of adding simple affinity enhancements to these as well. I assure you, if instead of 10MND at level 75 it had 5 Affinity to all elements, it would top every BLM's to do list in an instant, and would instantly be the best possible staff ever for nuking. It would be broken to all hell too, but that's standard for Delve weapons anyways. Without something like affinity, weapons will always have a hard time really overcoming the high % bonus we get from magian weapons.
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06-23-2013, 04:08 PMAng
I for one, am very happy too hear the Magian staves are still on top (except for Meteor). I finished all of them to 99 and every one was a huge pain in the butt to finish. Thank you SE for not letting all that time/gil go too waste! :D
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06-23-2013, 11:09 PMDemon6324236
I guess you don't have inventory space issues, because I personally was looking to get a single staff for nuking rather than stupidly needing 6~8 for it...
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06-24-2013, 03:58 AMAng
Yeah needing 6-8 staves is definately pretty lame and SE should devise a way to combine the magian staves (and many other things, i.e. elemental obi's) I assume they dont b/c there are so many variations of the magian staves. Everyone has inv space issues...untill SE fixes that, porter moogles and mules will be our only reprieve.
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06-24-2013, 06:34 AMZagenThe answer is laziness or they intentionally want inventory space to be a concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ang
I mean is it really that hard to do something like this:
Rainbow Magian I
(Staff) All Races
DMG: 57 Delay: 366
Affinity: Magic Accuracy+1
Affinity: Magic Damage+6
Affinity: Casting time -14%
All 8 magic accuracy:
Rainbow Magian II
(Staff) All Races
DMG: 57 Delay: 366
Affinity: Magic Accuracy+6
Affinity: Recast time -14%
Affinity: Magic Damage+1
All 8 perp cost:
Rainbow Magian III
(Staff) All Races
DMG: 57 Delay: 366
Affinity: Avatar perp. cost -7
Affinity: "Blood Pact" Delay: -12
Note: For those who don't know the current final forms of these 3 paths are all suffixed with an I, II, or III respectively.
Affinity is defined as being tied to any element in other words the magic damage/accuracy would still be useless for Meteor. This not only creates more inventory it actually creates incentive for those who may not have all 8 of a given path to actually make them so they could combine them into 1 inventory space instead of 2~8.
Considering the addition of Iridal/Chatoyant Staff there is 0 technical reason as to why these 3 new staves couldn't be created. -
06-24-2013, 07:24 AMDemon6324236
Agreed 100%
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06-24-2013, 05:05 PMKristalTechnically you can put any stats on it, but keep in mind that these new staves are crafted or drop from a fracture boss. Combining magian staves is simply not possible without an unfeasable amount of work and changes to the system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zagen
It makes more sense to create higher level versions of the chatoyant staff or to give players access to new merits that grant magic affinity. -
06-24-2013, 05:41 PMDemon6324236Why? Make a new craft or quest that requires all of them from a specific group to do. As it was pointed out, they each are unique weapons, even if they are considered augmented they are specific weapons, it is impossible to have an II with the stats of an III for instance, so the quest would only need to tell the difference between items, not augments, and quests can do that already, so should be no problem I would think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristal
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06-24-2013, 08:04 PMKristalBut that only works as long as they don't add any further trials to upgrade the augment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236
But even if they do get around that, we're still talking about 3 staves that are so insanely powerfull that there would be no reason to every add another staff to the game again because there simply is nothing else. The magian staves can be as powerfull as they are BECAUSE they only affect one element. -
06-24-2013, 10:37 PMZagenExcept that is completely false, the reason for mentioning Iridal/Chatoyant Staff in my post is to point out they didn't do anything stupid like programming the effects on an individual element level instead of a multi element level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristal
This doesn't change anything in the system that requires reworking except for allowing these mages to save 2~7 inventory slots. These wouldn't be more powerful than having all 8 of a given staff so I don't see how there needs to be any reworking.
Staves from Delve and Skirmish (although it can edge ahead even for BLM) don't beat out magian staves so I don't get where there needs to be reworking on those. In all honesty these staves simply provide a decent answer for the lazy mages as well as an answer to mages looking for a stronger version of the MAB magian staff and/or current BLM Mythic for Meteor.
They already said they didn't want to continue in the magian trials meaning that's a moot point. Even if they decided to go back on their decision having single staff doesn't stop them from being able to create stupid magian trials that would take just as long as 8 separate elements. Instead of let's say collect 40 (made up number) _ites you now have to collect 40 of each element.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristal
How exactly is 3 staves that are 100% the same as 24 staves currently in the game "insanely powerful"? Going from 24 to 3 inventory slots I guess qualifies as "insanely powerful".Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristal
As to mentioning they can only be as powerful because they are per element, if I want to do awesome magical damage I sure as hell don't hop on BLM and nuke. My MNK does more magical damage when that's actually desired over the course of a battle and it does it while tanking. So if you want to talk about "powerful magical damage" people aren't even looking at mages in this day and age. -
06-24-2013, 11:20 PMKristalSo why ask to combine the staves if it is a moot point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zagen
Then use 1 Soothsayer Staff instead of 8 I staves? Or Zamzummim Staff to replace 4 magian staves?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zagen
Because BLM is burst damage, not sustained. And MNK can't equip magian staves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zagen
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06-25-2013, 12:12 AMZagenInventory space isn't a moot point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristal
You trying to point out that "what if they want to continue magian trials" when they had already stated they didn't want to continue the magian trial line of quests is a moot point.
On top of that my suggestion used Synergy as the method of combination which outside of acquiring the staves doesn't need trial of the magian quest line.
So your solution is to replace 8 staves with 1 inferior staff to address the inventory issues? How does that even remotely seem logical?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristal
First the burst damage, BLM would be great for that if they could do it without hitting the Enmity cap because of the cap combined with the fact nothing relevant to endgame needs burst magical damage to be beaten that's well a terrible argument at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristal
As to the MNK not being on the staves, thanks for pointing out what I thought was obvious. MNK doesn't need them to surpass a BLM in terms of magical damage. I'm not even a BLM and find it to be stupid that when looking for magical damage the best answer isn't BLM. -
06-25-2013, 02:48 AMDemon6324236Seeing as we just got a staff which ends up with a total of 65MAB & 20INT, and yet still the Magian staves are at the top, I would say right now we already are at the point that they are so powerful that there is no reason to add another staff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristal
Every staff SE has added in years has been a waste, the Elemental staves were the strongest thing till the Magian Staves, very few things ever got even close, like BLM Mythic, SCH Mythic, and the Dorje, I honestly cant remember how good those were back then by compare because they were so impossible to get I ignored them. Now that the Magian staves are around they have added more staves, and still, nothing topped them, they have stood at the top, their cost, inventory space, and just like the years that came before, any serious mage will still pay that cost. At the same time, inventory itself is one of the largest problems in the game, why is it you would want to have to use more for the staves when they could fuse them? I mean look at Iridal and Chatoyant, can I point out that those two staves are level 51, same as the elemental staves, meaning to simply fuse them and give them an upgrade all at the same level was not overpowered? Why would it not be the same in this case? We don't need an upgrade, admittedly the upgrade would be insane because with the weather effect nothing could ever beat it besides Meteor.
The simple fact is, they did it for the other ones finally, gave it upgrades even, and now we have outdated them, in fact, its only optimum use is for curing on SCH so far as I know, nothing more. Why not let us fuse the things we are going to carry around anyways so we can help solve one of the largest issues in the game? -
06-25-2013, 02:56 AMDemon6324236Fusing them is not a moot point, why should I intentionally gimp myself for a single staff when they could easily fuse these together and solve the entire problem. Even if BLM is burst damage, in most cases I have ever seen a DD does about the same or better damage with a WS, as the BLM does with their best nuke, that might change soon, but point stands, their burst damage is lackluster overall in most cases. Also, MNK cant use them, that has no relevance, at all, why would it? MNK does not need nuking staves, his point was MNK could use H2H and out damage a BLM, so he would never take BLM for damage, not saying with the staves he would be better than BLM, the only real use they would provide anyways is Catacleaving in Abyssea...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristal
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06-25-2013, 10:23 PMKristalYou just said it. Replace 8 staves with 1 slighly less powerfull and you gain 7 inventory slots. 15 if you include both mab and macc magians. Go for a more balanced setup with 40 gear, rather then minmax with 80.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zagen
And keep in mind that more powerfull staves are yet to come, there are still 4 Naakuals unaccounted for. -
06-25-2013, 11:39 PMZagenWow, solve inventory space by making one of the weakest damage dealing jobs even weaker... I don't even know what to say to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristal
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06-27-2013, 11:15 AMChimerawizardWell of course, isn't that what they did when they made the iridial & chatoyant staves?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zagen
Wait, it's not? ... Well what did they do then? ... hmm, I see.
Kristal doesn't appear to understand at all, maybe he's actually a DEV.
Also, I am deeply saddened that a MNK is the job to bring if you need magic damage instead of BLM.
I understand how awesome formless strikes is, I have MNK w/ relic+2 aug'd & 5/5 merits, but BLM should still top that in DoT straight magic damage. The fact it does not, and by a wide gap further shows how blm has fallen since 75cap. -
06-27-2013, 12:55 PMDemon6324236So yes, intentionally gimp myself on damage and or accuracy for my nukes or Enfeebles because of inventory space. Do you know how stupid you just made yourself sound? Why would anyone think this is even close to an acceptable answer to this problem especially after SE already gave us Chatoyant, proving they can stack that many effects on a single weapon! Now maybe if you told me they could not stack that many affinity effects on a weapon that would be one thing, or that they could not make a craft for Synergy that requires 8 staves like that, ok, I can accept that. Chatoyant exists though, those things can not be said now, we know Chatoyant has 2 types of affinities which count for all elements, Damage, and Accuracy. There is no logical reason why fusing them together can not be done, if there is, you have failed to provide it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristal
Yes, 4 more NMs, which also means 4 more NMs worth of MAB gear, with every piece of MAB gear you get the effects of the Magian Staves get stronger and stronger because it is a % bonus. If you look only at the staff, well, right now Soothsayer would be the best if we stuck with lv75 MAB gear, but we are getting upgraded, and the more MAB we have outside the staff, the more we get with Magian. So really, while we might get a new staff that comes closer or tops Magian right now, we also might get new MAB gear, pushing Magian Staves too, which could instantly eliminate the advantage the new ones have.Quote:
And keep in mind that more powerfull staves are yet to come, there are still 4 Naakuals unaccounted for.
Besides that, just real quick. Why would it be so bad to fuse these when the time it would take to do it seems minor at best? As I already explained, Chatoyant is basically the same thing, its not a trial weapon, yes, I know, oh well, they have unique weapons at the end which can be used in a quest all the same I am sure, so the problem is eliminated. Take away the augments, make it a normal base item, and tada, does not need bonus effects like Chatoyant, does not need +stats, just the Affinities of the 8 staves used to create it, and it would be perfect. Do you know how much MAB they would have to stack on a staff to get past the Magian staves without making any new MAB gear right now? Cause apparently, 65MAB & 20INT is not enough, to me, that means just stacking mad amounts of MAB is not working.
Not only that, look at what happened here. Once again, we are talking about a weapon that is what? Level 115 or something like that, losing to level 99 staves? Sounds awfully familiar of Dorje and its battle with the Elemental Staves, higher level, harder to get, weaker in every way. Hmm~... Maybe its time SE stops stacking MAB on things alone, and adds Affinity with MAB on new weapons to have a stronger overall effect? -
06-27-2013, 11:12 PMSpankWustler
First off, I just want to say that Kristal is either the worst poster or best troll on the entirety of these forums. He or she has a lot of...special...posts in a lot of topics.
This is an important point. It looks like Soothsayer staff has a real chance to pull ahead for a while when the formula for Elemental magic changes. Maybe the Soothsayer Staff was even designed with those changes in mind, although that's kind of odd given the staff came out months before the adjustments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236
By that time, however, or shortly afterwards, every job that uses the staff could have more Magic Attack Bonus stuff and/or more INT stuff. Will those jobs have any Affinity stuff then that degrades the Magian staves? Highly doubtful. The kind of progress made in other slots isn't kind to Magic Attack Bonus/INT weapons compared to Affinity weapons.
The tiring dog chasing the accelerating car isn't a perfect metaphor for Magic Attack Bonus on weapons, but it's not too far off. It's more like...a dog that gets fatter the more food it eats in an attempt to bulk up...chasing a robotic dog with a rocket on its butt that flies faster as it becomes lighter due to using fuel...and Monk is represented by the robot dog exploding as the fat dog dies from heart failure...or something...
Anyway, the final point is that good Magic Attack Bonus staves would need to be (or at least their stats would need to look) absolutely ridiculous to be the kind of upgrades that good melee weapons are. -
06-28-2013, 02:15 AMDemon6324236That's part of the problem I think we have anyways. Between every kind of weapon in the game, what would have benefitted most from being replaced like this? Staffs, we carry so many of them that for some people it rivals our total for every other weapon we have combined! The thing is, they replaced every best weapon except for staves. Its not like they didn't try, they tried, this is the biggest mass of MAB ever put on anything, its immense, but the problem is that even when they made all these weapons which were so amazing they failed to do the job in this department. They tried to give us absolutely ridiculous stats just like the melee weapons, the problem is, SE does not understand what that means they have to do when it comes to staffs it seems.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankWustler
I think more than anything that is what has people disappointed with this staff, because while everything else was kicked down a notch, the place where we would have actually wanted that, it fell short. -
06-28-2013, 04:52 PMKristalThanks.. I guess? My posts are inspired by a unique view on things :D (I don't go catering to public opinion just to get more likes, for example.)Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankWustler
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06-29-2013, 08:24 AMMotentenMagians pretty much always win for AM2. It also doesn't take much above current top-end gear to push Magians ahead on AM1. However neither AM nor AM2 are commonly used nowadays, and their MP efficiency remains poor compared to any other spell tier in the new magic system (though there could potentially be uses for them). I'll ignore them for now as "not representative of likely spell usage".Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankWustler
Also not going to consider -ra spells for now, since geos really have no time or MP to nuke stuff.
Adding 50 int over current top-end gear (so ~160 total Int from gear, not counting staff) for a Taru blm/rdm only pushes Magians ahead of a rank 15 Soothsayer on T1 spells (and that's largely because T1s gain nothing from dInt 100 to 200, so a good chunk of the Soothsayer's damage is wasted); Soothsayer wins on everything else.
Adding 40 MAB over current top-end gear (~125 total without staff) pushes Magian ahead on most T5s, -jas and -ga3s, though Soothsayer still wins on the lower elements. At +30 MAB, Magian is just starting to be relevant.
Essentially, if total MAB from traits+gear pushes past ~175 then Magians become realistically competitive again for most major nukes. At 160+, they're competitive for high-element (low efficiency) nukes. Compare that with your current nuking sets to get an idea of how far you'd need to go to reach that point.
While we can't really rely on expectations of what SE is likely to introduce, adding an extra 50 int or 40 MAB above and beyond rank 15 Bokwus Robe, Yaoyotl Gloves, Akasha pants, etc, seems somewhat unlikely.
Caveats:
This is from the perspective of the new damage formulas. With the current formulas, Magians have a somewhat stronger presence, though damage on all fronts is much weaker.
This comparison only applies with the rank 15 Soothsayer. Lower rank Soothsayers are far more easily beaten by Magians.
This is subject to a particular dInt value based on the target mob. The lower the dInt, the more strongly things will be weighted in Soothsayer's favor, since the Int on the staff becomes a much stronger damage factor.
The best word to describe the overall balance: situational. Which spell you're casting, on what target mob, and with what gear can all influence which is the better weapon.
Of course this does go back to the issue that SE didn't manage to make an overwhelmingly powerful replacement weapon for nuking mages, but instead just a sidegrade or inventory saver. -
06-29-2013, 11:49 PMRaksha
I'm guessing the answer is "no" but would the INT give you similar m.acc to the damage magians?
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06-30-2013, 03:31 AMZagenMAB Path Rank 15:Quote:
Originally Posted by Raksha
If the difference between your INT and the target's INT is below 10~15 then it would give: 35 (15 MACC + 20 MACC from INT)
If the difference is above 10~15 INT then it would give: 25 (15 MACC + 10 MACC from INT)
MACC Path Rank 15:
<10~15: 48 (28 MACC + 20 from INT)
>10~15: 38 (28 MACC + 10 from INT)
MP Path Rank 15:
<10~15: 33 (23 + 10 from INT)
>10~15: 28 (23 + 5 from INT)
All 3 paths of Soothsayer gives more magic accuracy than ToTM magic damage staves.
MACC path always provides more magic accuracy than ToTM magic accuracy staves.
MAB path can occasionally give the same amount of magic accuracy as the ToTM magic accuracy staves.
As the updates to nukes has only talked about damage, mp cost, casting time, and recast times I don't think this would change post up. -
07-01-2013, 10:04 AMSpankWustlerThat's a much rosier outlook for the Soothsayer Staff's future than I expected, especially now that we know the changes to Elemental Magic are coming in just over a week. It sucks that the delve weapon for Elemental Magic is only a slightly superior option for the most difficult-to-buff form of damage in the whole game, but at least it'll save inventory by being slightly superior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Motenten
I still like to think that all Magic Attack Bonus staves are added to FFXI by a deranged vagrant who lives in the office's central ventilation system rather than an actual member of the development team, though. That helps me sleep at night!