More Paladin-centered shields needed to close the gap with Aegis & Ochain

OK, things were bad before with these lazy-minded players shouting "Aegis/Ochain PLD only" for any and all endgame events, but now it's gotten to the point people might as well not even level the job now without either of these supposedly rare items.

I'm calling on S-E to design shields that close the gap between these and shields that non-hardcore players can build or buy. I've recommended a Magian Elemental path series that allows different attributes and augments before, but I'd also like to see crafted shields that also narrow this chasm that has led to this lazy-mindedness.

No job should ever find itself locked out of events due to a lack of R/M/E/D weapons/gear. This, above all else, is killing the game.

You'll probably get a lot of flak for saying what you did, but you're absolutely right. If a job is essentially non-functional without an item of that caliber then the job is highly flawed. If the perception is that a job is essentially non-functional without an item of that caliber, when that is not actually the case, then the perception is highly flawed.

Yeah it's gotten to the point where unless you have an O.Chain you don't even come PLD. SE's fault for making those shields so broken in the first place, then making NM's with such high offensive power that their needed in the first place.

Totally agreed. non-aegischain shields are extremely far behind, while RMEs actually have weapons that are pretty close or better (before SoA), depending on which level version you're talking about. You will find common weapons that are close to or better lv85 (and sometimes lv90 RMEs), but there are no shields in the entire game that even get within ten miles of aegis and ochain, even when we're talking about their lv85 versions.

We need common shields that are as good as ochain is at 90, and aegis is at 75. The delve shield is a complete joke. We need something with a lot bunch of Magic Defense Bonus and a high block rate, and something with no MDB and an even higher block rate (and that has very strong blocks). Ochain lets you regain MP when you block, so even if you add a common lv99 shield that block as often and for as much as a lv90 ochain, 90ochain will still be better, and 99ochain will be even better than that again.

Actually, you could probably add a shield that is equivalent to a 90 ochain in block rate, but have it block 20% less damage than ochain, and then put a converts 10% (or 15%) of damage taken to MP upon block, and it still wouldn't really make ochain wielders wet their pants.

Seriously, SE. You need to do this.

Steadfast shield. Easy to get and very good.
DEF50 is a big deal with a 65% block rate. There are also Rumors of lots of 0s using the shield.


Same can be said of Adamas, it just takes more prep work.

The increased block rate from reprisal dissipates after blocking a certain number of hits, adamas sucks.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Yeah it's gotten to the point where unless you have an O.Chain you don't even come PLD.

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"Gotten to?" It's been "Bring Aegis or bring another job" practically since the Aegis was introduced.

It's not just a pld issue. I have friends who can't get any of the key items due to their choice in a main job.

If you have Whm, Cor, Brd, (R/E/M/D)sam, (R/E/M/D)mnk, or (R/E shield)pld then you're good to go for just about everything. Other than that it's all a matter of luck whether or not you'll be able to make any damn progress.

Oh well, gonna be the naysayer.

If you like the job, invest the time. Aegis hardly requires hardcore playtime to build. Ochain will take longer, but it doesn't either. If you go do 2 VNM a night 45m-2hr, depending on your upgrades/competition), you'll have your vnm done in a month.

Aegis is soloable (farm/buy your currency). VNMs are soloable with Aegis (except Diabolos).

As others, though in support of your post, have pointed out, Paladin is not the only job that needs REMd to be viable in players' eyes right now.

Why should players who committed themselves--yes, like me--be effectively nerfed, because you don't want to build your shield?

(Edit: Tad over-the-top with previous line. :))

An aegis pld can tank most the delve NMs just fine. An ochain is safer on the scorpion, and shield swapping is best, but that's the commitment it takes.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Oh well, gonna be the naysayer.

Why should players who committed themselves--yes, like me--be effectively nerfed, because you don't want to build your shield?

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You mean besides Aegis/Ochain acting as on/off switches for paladin viability being fundamentally wrong and unfair to anyone that wants to pick up the damn job?

This also applies to other jobs where RME are on/off switches.

OP has it right, as the gap between a non-Aegis/Ochain PLD and an Aegis/Ochain PLD is huge. The main question is whether it should be resolved via new shields or whether a revamp of shield mechanics is in order and reitemization of shield stats to fit within the new model.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Why should players who committed themselves--yes, like me--be effectively nerfed, because you don't want to build your shield?

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Sorry, but you're not getting nerfed. Your Ochain will function exactly the same. The gap needs to be closed period. I don't think anyone is asking for an easier to obtain shield that is better or even on par with Ochain / Aegis, just a shield that allows pld to be played. It's sad seeing delve shouts take a Twilight Zombie over a non Ochain / Aegis pld, but its happening because frankly its more useful.

The fact that PLD can't even function without one of these shields shows that SE needs to look into the job and look for real solutions instead of making band-aids that many players won't be able to achieve.

SE should just make PLD take zero damage from magic and physical. Therefore you don't even need a shield, just come on a naked PLD99 and you can just tank everything.

That will help all the people who don't have time to make an aegis and ochain!

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Originally Posted by Yarly

SE should just make PLD take zero damage from magic and physical. Therefore you don't even need a shield, just come on a naked PLD99 and you can just tank everything.

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Despite your failed attempt at sarcasm, the implementation of shields has always been questionable at best. It's almost like they built the whole system around Aegis/Ochain being the best with little concern for anything below those two shields or the implications on player survivability. The until-recent wonkyness of shield blocking did not help at all, and was part of why NIN could wipe the floor with PLD in the tanking department for as long as it did (yes, I still remember the days of lolshield and how you needed an earth staff to tank things).

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Originally Posted by Duelle

You mean besides Aegis/Ochain acting as on/off switches for paladin viability being fundamentally wrong and unfair to anyone that wants to pick up the damn job?

This also applies to other jobs where RME are on/off switches.

OP has it right, as the gap between a non-Aegis/Ochain PLD and an Aegis/Ochain PLD is huge. The main question is whether it should be resolved via new shields or whether a revamp of shield mechanics is in order and reitemization of shield stats to fit within the new model.

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Yes, exactly. Aegis/Ochain is an on/off switch.

REM was an on/off switch for a lot of jobs.

It takes effort to build and it's a shame if people don't want to commit themselves. I have jobs I don't want to commit to, and I do half-bake, and ya know what? I take no offense when people don't want them.

If you haven't built either shield, you're not at all being serious about pld.

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Originally Posted by Dantedmc

Sorry, but you're not getting nerfed. Your Ochain will function exactly the same. The gap needs to be closed period. I don't think anyone is asking for an easier to obtain shield that is better or even on par with Ochain / Aegis, just a shield that allows pld to be played. It's sad seeing delve shouts take a Twilight Zombie over a non Ochain / Aegis pld, but its happening because frankly its more useful.

The fact that PLD can't even function without one of these shields shows that SE needs to look into the job and look for real solutions instead of making band-aids that many players won't be able to achieve.

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Haven't tried, because I don't need too, but if it was me, I'd try pld/rdm in a size 3 shield. Keep up aquaveil, proper bar element, and ice spikes. You could probably tank both the cricket and buttflies in Czeizak.

I make no assumptions about anyone, but most of these PLDs I see in steadfast shield are 5/5 Creed +2 (or +1...). They don't bring a DT kit. If they've bothered with dark rings, their 2% rings.

With most people, the people that won't commit to a relic/empy/mythic/upgrading-delve won't commit to other huge expenditures either, whether the cost be time or money. IE, war/drks that wouldn't build armadaberk, let alone adaberk.

There are two mindsets people bring to a job, and it can vary from job to job: I'm gonna put everything into this and do my best. / I'm gonna half-bake this and if it's not good enough, whatever. Noble's tunic whms, perle bsts, etc.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Yes, exactly. Aegis/Ochain is an on/off switch.

REM was an on/off switch for a lot of jobs.

It takes effort to build and it's a shame if people don't want to commit themselves. I have jobs I don't want to commit to, and I do half-bake, and ya know what? I take no offense when people don't want them.

If you haven't built either shield, you're not at all being serious about pld.

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There shouldn't be an on/off switch period. If you think there should be then your not serious about anything.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

There shouldn't be an on/off switch period. If you think there should be then your not serious about anything.

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That makes no sense. You can disagree with my opinion, but your reply doesn't make any sense. We play the game SE made. SE has designed a game where if you're serious about goals, you gear the very best you can. If you don't play seriously, and to your best, you encounter an on/off switch.

I didn't ask for Aegis/Ochain to be required, but I--and many others--saw that it was, and so we made them. Gjallarhorn bards didn't ask to need to build Empy as well, but the extra song(s) makes their group better.

(Edit: As I was caught for not elaborating, I'm talking about bard in truly-hard content, like Delve's Mega Bosses. PLD hits the ceiling much much earlier than bard.)

In the funny case of both those jobs, many people made them even when the jobs were grossly underused for a lot of content in hopes that they'd be useful again.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Yes, exactly. Aegis/Ochain is an on/off switch.

REM was an on/off switch for a lot of jobs.

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No, it was never a on/off switch for other jobs except in Legion and maybe Prov Watcher, besides that it was simply the ignorant community forcing people to have certain things, like how people shout for Hahava and only want RME DDs when its a NM I could literally take down with only 3 well geared people, if that.

For PLD on the other hand, I have a PLD with capped MDT and quite a bit of MDB on it and yet some VW mobs, specifically the Demon adds, were able to 1-shot my PLD, other mobs can still bust out terribly high numbers which can lead to near instant death. A PLD with Aegis is taking 1/4th of the damage of a non-Aegis PLD who is capping MDT, before MDB gear, that 3/4ths extra damage is often enough to make a huge ass difference! Now if you get hit for a nuke for 100 its obviously nothing, my PLD takes about 50 yours takes about 12, both are very low, but what if its a nuke for, say, 2k, I get hit for 1k, you get hit for 240ish, now I am near dead and you are perfectly healthy. The difference there is a 75% difference, DDs at most have a 20~30% increase with their strongest weapon versus a decently easy to obtain weapon, except DRG, which is a special exception obviously.

Ochain is similar to Aegis, but not as much so. Ochain is like Apoc is to DRK in a way, it opens doors you did not have before, its not as important for your primary role, tanking everything, but against Physical damage its by far the best, what other shield has a block rate even close to it besides Aegis? What shield blocks this much damage? What shield, hell, what gear at all gives back this much MP to a tank that can heal itself? Ochain is by far the best shield on non-magic mobs, the gap on that is not messurable as easily as Aegis, but the gap is large enough that it makes such a difference that a non-Ochain PLD can tank 5~10 mobs while struggling, and an Ochain PLD can tank 15 mobs without looking at the screen practically.

The gaps between a RMED DD and a non-RMED DD is much smaller than that of a RE PLD and any other PLD.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

I didn't ask for Aegis/Ochain to be required, but I--and many others--saw that it was, and so we made them. Gjallarhorn bards didn't ask to need to build Empy as well, but the extra song(s) makes their group better.

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Whoa... what? How does that comparison make sense? Last I checked I have never seen anyone request only R/E or R+E BRDs, I have seen people request that of a PLD and refuse those who did not have them, RE BRDs have never been basically forced into those items unless it was by a linkshell, and often a linkshell which does that ends up putting in time to assist with it anyways, which is different because they are forcing you but assisting you with it all the same. PLDs are expected to have R or E or they are simply ignored and thought not worth bringing because of the difference between a normal PLD, and a RE PLD. One is a basic requirement to play the job practically, the other is optional most the time, and when its forced on you its normally by the same people helping you to get it in the first place. Your comparison here is a failure.

Sorry, R/E in hard stuff, when you're winning by seconds.

Yeah, delve shouts will darn-near take a naked bard if they must, but hard content (not hard for a particular person, but truly hard, like Tojin right now) want relic/empy bards.

But yeah, fair enough, I didn't elaborate and bard doesn't hit the ceiling nearly as early as pld.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

No job should ever find itself locked out of events due to a lack of R/M/E/D weapons/gear. This, above all else, is killing the game.

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All jobs have similar expectations of them. If 25% of people who played bard in endgame had a 99 daurdabla and a 99 gjallarhorn, you would see shouts for bards requiring them to have both. Luckily for me, most people don't really enjoy playing bard, and even those who do usually don't put forth much effort into making their bard any good, so expectations on me are a little bit lower. Even though having both of these items makes a bard as strong as 2 bards combined, why do you suppose shouts don't require bards to have both? Because they could shout all year and never get a single reply.

But you see these shouts for RMED melees because RMED are strong weapons, and enough of the population of the server has gotten one of these weapons that the person shouting doesn't need to bet the farm on a DD who claims to be skilled enough to overcome the fact that he's single-wielding joyeuse. If you had a shield in the game that was slightly weaker than ochain and aegis, do you really think the ochain and aegis shouts would stop? No, Aegis and Ochain are still better, and there's still hundreds of them on the server. Why beg for pennies when begging for gold bars has a similar success rate?

Players create these requirements on one another. Players, above all else, are killing the game.

Yeah, all the players should quit! That'll fix the game!

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

Players create these requirements on one another.

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Players are only taking the path of least resistance, a path designed by S-E.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Players are only taking the path of least resistance, a path designed by S-E.

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You really think we're taking SE's updates along the path they intended? They can design as much as they want, we'll find a short cut which has nothing to do with the path designed by SE. Then SE will have to remedy it, and players will bitch and moan, then find another short cut. Then the cycle continues.

I think the difference in our stances is this: you see the playerbase as a constant, and the devs as a variable while I see the inverse.

Edit: I really shouldn't have used the term "constant", because both are variables in truth. My belief is that my chances of changing the playerbase are greater than my chances of changing what goes into an update. This belief comes from nearly 10 years of experience in the game where none of my suggestions have ever been taken by devs, but in spite of my lack of control over our direction, I have made the game more enjoyable for several players and continue to attempt doing so.

Sometimes the team captain doesn't want you on his team because you can't do as many push-ups as Johnny. That doesn't make the creator of the game a jerk, it makes the team captain a jerk.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Players are only taking the path of least resistance, a path designed by S-E.

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^

Tank parties may well need additional support/backup tanks, taking further dd spots from the alliance slowing the delve runs.

Let's be honest, delve farming is boring. It's cruel and unusual. THe faster in, faster out, the better for us all.

For me the issue is that while I'd kind of like to try paladin, to do that the first order of business is thus: go make 90 ochain.
I'm not going to make an empy right off the bat for a job I'm new at/trying out, and there's practically NOTHING that a non-ochain pld is useful for (worth doing anyway; 75 content and such aside). Maybe a few of the easier aby nm's or something.

Comparing that to brd which I am picking up, sure I don't have ghorn or daurdabla but I can still do worthwhile things; it's possible to get experience on the job while plasm farming (for which the bar is pretty low).

I have to disagree with the idea. The difference in power between some of the better shields and R/E shields is about on par in a similar way as the weapons are.

Seigneur Shield vs Ochain, for example, is along the same lines as Honorbound to Almace.

There is supposed to be a notable performance gap between the two due to the nature of the ultimate weapons/shields/instruments.

What I would agree with, however, is that the content should not be designed around having the ultimates. The benefit of having an ultimate weapon/shield/instrument is to have that much of an advantage in content designed around the average gear level.

I would say it's actually a design flaw to balance content around R/M/E owners, because then this silly "Aegischain PLD" kind of stuff pops up, similar to "R/M/E DD" for Voidwatch. Content should be balanced around average weaponry/defenses and R/M/E should be an augment, not a requirement.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

Content should be balanced around average weaponry/defenses and R/M/E should be an augment, not a requirement.

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RME is not a requirement. You can beat skirmish with magian weapons. You can beat first-tier delve and naakuals with skirmish weapons. You can beat second-tier delve with first-tier delve gear and skirmish/naakual weapons. You can beat final-tier delve with second-tier delve gear and weapons. RME is a bonus, just like you describe.


The problem exists in the fact that so many people have an RME (and now delve weapon) that they can specifically request "RMED" and they will get one, so why would they ever settle for someone who didn't have one of these? To them, RMED is the norm and anything less than that is slow and unreliable. There are so many well-geared players that it is very easy to be undergeared.

The other problem is that when you balance hard content around average players, the players who tried the hardest feel no challenge.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Why should players who committed themselves--yes, like me--be effectively nerfed, because you don't want to build your shield?

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I'd like to you know how you're being effectively nerfed by someone else being able to get a decent shield that would be useable and useful until you can complete the content to get an Aegis or Ochain (or both). People can't learn to play the job when they aren't being used in any of the relevant content. I'm speaking as a veteran Paladin.

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Originally Posted by Hexadecimal

being able to get a decent shield that would be useable and useful until you can complete the content to get an Aegis or Ochain (or both).

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I think it's worth noting that a PLD lacking an R/E shield isn't even useful in the activities required to obtain an R/E shield. It's a catch-22.

Easy--Anyone can farm dynamis now. Literally anyone can build an Aegis right now. 0 help is required to build 75 aegis.

Trialing it probably requires help, but a perle bst can and surely have built 75 aegis, as have aurore thieves and blus.

Nothing is holding players back from aquiring aegis except putting it off.

In 75 Aegis, you can solo your VNM trial. I know because I did quite a bit solo. Friends helped, when they were free, but a lot of times, I was out there pld/dnc for Leviathan or pld/thf or Ifrit. I did mine with 95 aegis but 75 aegis, shell IV, and MDT gear will get you pretty close to magic cap. You'll probably kill slower than I did, but I didn't kill exactly fast..

Ifrit was no threat to me at all. Leviathan wasn't really except that while he's casting, he's got a mean 100/tic poison aura. Stunning that, or healing through it, requires /dnc.

Azdaja... you'll most certainly need help with, if you don't have a curebox.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

What I would agree with, however, is that the content should not be designed around having the ultimates. The benefit of having an ultimate weapon/shield/instrument is to have that much of an advantage in content designed around the average gear level.

I would say it's actually a design flaw to balance content around R/M/E owners, because then this silly "Aegischain PLD" kind of stuff pops up, similar to "R/M/E DD" for Voidwatch. Content should be balanced around average weaponry/defenses and R/M/E should be an augment, not a requirement.

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The problem then becomes how much more powerful RME should be compared to an average weapon. Maybe the gap between Honorbound and Almace should be smaller in order to acommodate this direction you suggest. Otherwise people will RME are going to steamroll the content with the way things are currently designed because the difference in power is that notable.

Ochain and Aegis are fundamentally broken pieces of equipment because they make PLD nearly invincible. They should've never gotten to be as strong as they are. This is not just a PLD issue but also a tank issue in general. Nobody is going to give a shit about RUN or NIN as long as these two shields exist, unless SE plans on adding even more broken items for both these jobs.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

That makes no sense. You can disagree with my opinion, but your reply doesn't make any sense. We play the game SE made. SE has designed a game where if you're serious about goals, you gear the very best you can. If you don't play seriously, and to your best, you encounter an on/off switch.

I didn't ask for Aegis/Ochain to be required, but I--and many others--saw that it was, and so we made them. Gjallarhorn bards didn't ask to need to build Empy as well, but the extra song(s) makes their group better.

(Edit: As I was caught for not elaborating, I'm talking about bard in truly-hard content, like Delve's Mega Bosses. PLD hits the ceiling much much earlier than bard.)

In the funny case of both those jobs, many people made them even when the jobs were grossly underused for a lot of content in hopes that they'd be useful again.

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It makes perfect sense. When asked about playing paladin, no one should ever be told "Go level beast, spend the next few months in dynamis If you're lucky you'll be ready to do content with everyone else on paladin in less than six months. Have fun playing paladin!... I hope you like it...".

People should be able to do content in between level 1 and aegis.

The problem is that the "thing" you're wanting to do is among the hardest things in the game, as a whole. No melee lets to half-bake gear a job and get in. Standards for most mages are pretty high, save bard.

Bard is about the only exception.

On my server, I do see non aegis/ochains in delve.. and personally, I groan. Typically they're players that above been around for years, because I've seen them around that long, and their paladin is half baked, stacking 300 more in HP gear at the expense of any DT gear, because they're waiting for a good shield "besides aegis/ochain".

Yeah, most of them have steadfast.

These are also the same people who think supertanking is a compliment and don't listen. They don't farm +2 gear, they don't care. Truth is, they want to skip many tiers of gear.

Paladin, on the content it is required in, has always been the crux of success, and people are silly for trying to bring anything less than their best. Even in voidwatch, when paladin was only an add-jockey most of the time, if you lost the pld, you lost the event.

People around here seem fond of talking about having to level other jobs to gear your main jobs.. as if it's something new. Unless your main was favored for that era, that's always been a part of FFXI. This isn't a new thing. My BLM, WHM, THF probably (I might have anyway), BLU, NIN, BST (ugh I never wanted to level bst) are only as geared as they are because I was questing to better my PLD, and I'm far from the only person to do this.

I've just finished levelling, and began gearing bard, simply so I can have more delve shouts. Spells cost me about 2 million gil. Don't see me complaining. (And yeah, I'm gonna deck it out. It's a fun job.)

Why do I want more delve? To gear my other jobs, including my pld, better.

I'mma have to agree with OP after reading the first page. Gap is huge.

I suppose it is a bit of a shame. The shields do have quite the gap. Ochain being the biggest in my opinion. Palisade was a step in the right direction as far as block rate goes, however. Maybe that should be touched on, tier 3 merits maybe?

I have both shields and love them both. As most have pointed out they are almost required in the content you actually bring PLD to now. Here's the thing though: it is possible to tank delve nms without these shields. Possible. It would almost be tempting to use a different shield just to toy around since I never got to use Adamas or any of the other new shields.

The catch here is that you would really need a near perfect PDT and MDT set along with an on the ball healer to back you. The killing point is that most of your average players just don't have these or just don't care enough. Most of the players that are willing to spend the time to gear well enough to handle it without the shields either already have 1 or both or are making progress to getting them.

Edit: Spacing

Bingo, they're not looking for second-best, or a stepping stone. We're not 75 or 90 anymore. The content to acquire these doesn't need much help.

I guess I'm just of a different mindset than most people here, but I came back to XI, saw that I could obtain Aegis, and I set about doing that. It's not a hurdle, it's a goal. Back in 75 days, I would have completely agreed. Koenig shield didn't even belong in the same linkshell as an aegis and you felt gimp if you were standing next to gold in your purple and there wasn't a lot you could do about it unless you were in a really good gil position/had an ls devoted to you, or stole/bought gil (as was the source of a fair portion of relics).

I love it when people support bad game design.

"You must level this job and do a bunch of mundane/repetitive things to even consider playing this other job at PAR." This is what you are saying, and that is the problem with FFXI currently. I don't get why people don't see that, unless they want other people to suffer for hours on end just to play the interesting parts of this game, which is a joke. RME of any kind should be a tool, not a requirement.