Pld Emnity/hate distribution chages?

I am curious, Is there any plans for paladin's? With the release of Abyssea, Paladin has been shelved and it seems every job is getting a boost making there damage output stronger or jobs like monk and ninja more versatile in tanking situations thus making the role of paladins being able to keep steady hate or a useful job almost non-existent...

We have received job abilities like Divine emblem and some really cool spells like phalanx but still nothing major to keep up with the current change of the game.

Pld is one of the hardest jobs to fix at the moment. There's really no need for a tank. Even prior to Abyssea having a Pld was more or less a safety net against bad stuff from happening. I'm not hating on the job either. I love it have it leveled but tanks are just next to impossible to make useful unless you either nerf melee damage enmity and/or make melee take way more damage. That would make a lot of angry people I would think.

The other option is to buff Pld but how? Make it do more damage or heal more? Then it outclasses other jobs that sole function is to damage or heal. It's very hard to do with keeping balance.

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Originally Posted by Orson

Pld is one of the hardest jobs to fix at the moment. There's really no need for a tank. Even prior to Abyssea having a Pld was more or less a safety net against bad stuff from happening. I'm not hating on the job either. I love it have it leveled but tanks are just next to impossible to make useful unless you either nerf melee damage enmity and/or make melee take way more damage. That would make a lot of angry people I would think.

The other option is to buff Pld but how? Make it do more damage or heal more? Then it outclasses other jobs that sole function is to damage or heal. It's very hard to do with keeping balance.

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Very true, I mean there are some way's to work around that, maybe raising the emn. cap, Making cover more usefull and letting you cover anyone in ally, adding spells like "Flash 2" lower recast then flash and generates more hate... There are a few "tweaks" they could implement to work well but I think at this point its more of a "Wait and see". I have to say though I don't have any complaint's when I get to tank NM's on warrior because of constant 5-6k ukko's furry :)

It would be nice of the enmity ceiling could be raised for PLD along with damage dealing capability.

I believe having an ability that is similar to Accomplice would be amazing. Even if cover was augmented into taking a party members hate. Another awesome ability would be something similar to Migawari, but would allow paladins to absorb the next attack. Maybe even increase the absorb rate and allow absorbed dmg to count as cured hate.

At the moment, nothing is worse than seeing PLD being made fun of.

All of these suggestions sound great. Especially a cover tweak. I hate the fact that I can only cover my party members and no one else in my alliance. Not only that but it doesn't last long enough even with merits.

enmity isnt the real issue, using pld being able to outenmity other DD will just end up slowing kill speed.
DD survivability IS the issue: you dont need tank if DD can survive as well without one

To a somewhat related point, I believe PLD should have its own NATIVE Provoke. All other jobs are getting traits and such (dual wield anyone) that normally required a subclass just for that. A paladin is a tank, meant to be a tank, and should be a tank, so why not give it the ability it needs to do its job and open up other subjob opportunities.

It's hard to make it like: if you have a pld it's easier, but you can do it without it if you want.
Because if you need a PLD for everything, the game will become somewhat static.
The other side is, why taking a pld, even if he holds hate, when you can have a mnk or a war, which can keep hate, deals tons of damage, and you can bomb cure it.
I like PLD, it's my first job i leveled 75, but inside abyssea PLD is dead, let's see if there is something outside abyssea coming.

Paladin being my only job at 90, it's somewhat depressing /shouting for a THF or NIN tank for Abyssea.

Augmenting the Cover effect sounds great to me, especially cause I'm probably the only PLD in the history of FFXI who has it fully merited \o/

That aside, raising enmity cap for PLD may not be the smartest idea, since once they're over cap, they would stay there and it would make it impossible for other jobs to take hate, unless the PLD takes massive damage. Sure, that would solidify a PLDs role as a tank, but maybe make it a bit overpowered. I guess it depends on how much they increase the cap, if they do. Just a bit too much, and it would be overpowered, not enough and constant hitters, like MNK or dual wielders, would get hate back all the time, making the mob spin like a dreidel.

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That aside, raising enmity cap for PLD may not be the smartest idea, since once they're over cap, they would stay there and it would make it impossible for other jobs to take hate, unless the PLD takes massive damage. Sure, that would solidify a PLDs role as a tank, but maybe make it a bit overpowered.

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Eh, not really. Holding hate isn't a problem now for any dd job. Not being able to easily flip the mob around would actually be a nerf for pld, as they would only hold hate slightly better, and would have a much harder time in an emergency.

I agree with all of you on this, My PLD has done nothing but sat on the sideline since abyssea and with the increase of skill caps a NIN or THF can blink tank outside of abyssea on most things. Natural voke is something long over due and even an ability that absorbs damage like suggested would increase the use of a PLD over a MNK in some cases especially if the proc rate would be improved but to get it high enough to match a MNK HP would almost be unfair.. Now maybe a 3 minute ability that lasts for 1.5 minutes that has an ability to resist damage based on enmity or like someone mentioned Accomplish but an AoE version would be nice to see. PLD needs an increase rate of damage to pull hate off a mnk or war. Decreased Natural enmity decay traits or simplified everything Ive said a job traits that redirects enmity of party to the PLD just because its in an alliance.

Anything involving hate will not fix the problems pld has. Any job, including pld, can easily reach, and maintain the enmity cap.d Pld's problem is that it is redundant, and inferior in all ways to other jobs.

Ya PLD was my first 75 and second job to 90. @Mustakrakish yes!! I had the same conversation yesterday, PLD needs it's own provoke. Either a "Provoke 2" with super EMN gain or an "Accomplice" type ability with similar amounts of EMN gain.
The cover ability should also be area specific in my opinion (maybe Cover 2) to actually cover any party member or possibly alliance standing behind the PLD.
People are also saying here that PLD is only a tank actually that's how you perceive it from the way it's been played in the past, it doesn't always have to be that way. Many years ago Warriors were considered tanks. Maybe they should look at increasing damage effectiveness in parties, making it more of a holy knight. Not as much DD as traditional DD jobs but enough to keep up, and healing party members at the same time. Just my thoughts anyway, could be a way to get PLD back into parties :P

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Originally Posted by Kurai-Akuba

Ya PLD was my first 75 and second job to 90. @Mustakrakish yes!! I had the same conversation yesterday, PLD needs it's own provoke. Either a "Provoke 2" with super EMN gain or an "Accomplice" type ability with similar amounts of EMN gain.
The cover ability should also be area specific in my opinion (maybe Cover 2) to actually cover any party member or possibly alliance standing behind the PLD.
People are also saying here that PLD is only a tank actually that's how you perceive it from the way it's been played in the past, it doesn't always have to be that way. Many years ago Warriors were considered tanks. Maybe they should look at increasing damage effectiveness in parties, making it more of a holy knight. Not as much DD as traditional DD jobs but enough to keep up, and healing party members at the same time. Just my thoughts anyway, could be a way to get PLD back into parties :P

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You sir hitted the spot, increasing PLD damage output and light spells focus and giving it a native provoke would certanly put us back in the spotlight

Tho, in terms of balance, DRK (as the counterpart of PLD) should recive more damage mitigation means, as they also use the heaviest armor in the game.

Making PLD and DRK the oposite side of spectrum on frontline spellcasters, DRK focused on DD but can sustain damage and PLD focused on sustaining damage but capable of deal damage

ok, first of all. lets use the jobs in this game as to how they were ment to be used. second. yes u can have a mnk or war keep hate with cure bombs. thats not how this game was ment to be played. if u want to play this game that way. i suggest u go to WOW and play a real kids game. Abyssea isnt ment for an alliance of 8-10 mnk and wars and the rest whms to cure bomb on the hardest NMs in the game so far. can it be done, yes. are u a good group that can do that. no u have no skill at this game what so ever. have a real group of people who use the jobs for how they were ment do have a rough time on mobs like raja and others that you need to do certain things when they are casting spells or doing JA. this game is metn to make u think on how to beat these mobs..no just zerg it all down. yes pld needs a heavy upgrade. doesnt matter if u have relics or Empyrean weapons. and last as to pld being dead inside abyssea. ask mnks why they get 1 shotted for 3k plus damage on ga4? but yet when i get hit with that 600-700 if i dont put on magic damage down? so as to our LS and how we do the game the real way, pld is no where near dead

I've seen Paladins hold hate VERY efficiently, I don't think there's any issue with PLD keeping hate... That is, until the enmity reset abilities that a lot of monsters tend to have...

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increasing PLD damage output and light spells focus and giving it a native provoke would certanly put us back in the spotlight

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But it wouldn't. Provoke it entirely useless, since 1-2 good weapon skills will cap your hate anyway. The only thing that would help pld is increased DD ability. Increased to the point that it's one of the best dds. I'm afraid there's no chance of that happening.

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ok, first of all. lets use the jobs in this game as to how they were ment to be used. second. yes u can have a mnk or war keep hate with cure bombs. thats not how this game was ment to be played. if u want to play this game that way.

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It doesn't matter how it was meant to be played. Like it or not, that's currently the best way to play.

I too believe Pld has taken a hit in the game, in general. However; I am persistent with my Pld, regardless of what others may say about the job.

I have been finding myself more and more useful in abyssea with my linkshell friends when it comes to farming for keyitems. As Pld we have access to a lot of useful weapon skills. One of which is hard to find unless you have a War(Obviously having access to all weapon skills aside from near eastern jobs).

As for damage, I believe in abyssea it's all about the right atmas you possess and use. My usual set of atmas consists of VV+RR+GH. This is straight TP gain and crit hit %. With these atmas on I find myself taking hate over my Nin counter part during our battles and also contributing to a good chunk of the monsters health.

I do believe Pld is not balanced anymore. Healing spells do not generate the same enmity anymore. Damage outside of abyssea is below par. And the constant ability to grab the monsters attention off a fellow character is just down right impossible if they are doing massive damage.

I like the idea of a cover tweak. I also believe that some ability times would be best if shortened. Playing on Nin, I have gotten a feel for Yonin/Innin and would like to see something similar on Pld. Also, as players HP grows Pld cures become less and less useful.

Ideas :
Templar - Duration 3mins - Recast 3mins
Lowers damage(-Attack by 10-15%?)
Raises enmity cap or Spikes enmity(Similar to Sentinel) for the Pld.
Raises cure potency by 15-20%

Crusader - Duration 3mins - Recast 3mins
Lowers block rate and/or defense. (-10-25%?)
lowers cure potency by 25-40%.
Raises Attack speed. (Does not stack with Hasso)
Raises Attack power. (+attack 10-25%)

Obviously these are just ideas and are welcome to criticism.

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Originally Posted by Kuraudo

All of these suggestions sound great. Especially a cover tweak. I hate the fact that I can only cover my party members and no one else in my alliance. Not only that but it doesn't last long enough even with merits.

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I hear you on that. What also grinds my gears is how a lot of the time, people don't let me Cover them. Either they refuse to back up from being up on the mob's skin, or run away when I step in front of them. Trying to explain how Cover works can run into problems with language barriers and people who don't understand PLD abilities. But eh, minor complaints.

I too am hopeful for there being more exciting opportunities for us PLD enthusiasts in the near future.

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As for damage, I believe in abyssea it's all about the right atmas you possess and use. My usual set of atmas consists of VV+RR+GH. This is straight TP gain and crit hit %. With these atmas on I find myself taking hate over my Nin counter part during our battles and also contributing to a good chunk of the monsters health.

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Of course pld can definitely put out some decent damage. However so can every other job, from war to whm (in fact i'd bet a good whm would beat a pld by a large margin). There's nothing special about being a middle of the road dd.

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Originally Posted by rog

Of course pld can definitely put out some decent damage. However so can every other job, from war to whm (in fact i'd bet a good whm would beat a pld by a large margin). There's nothing special about being a middle of the road dd.

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Im sure a Whm could front some great damage. I don't believe it could beat a properly geared DD Pld if set next to each other. Gear would be the defining point in that.

As most people play Pld, they believe they have to set themselves in "Pld related only" gear. There is loads of gear out there that can push a Pld up to be a proper DD. It does however take away from them tanking effectively(Less defense, usually no shield, etc).

It's all in the way you play/gear the job really. As for where it stands now, I agree that no one likes to be the middle guy. That is why Pld needs to find it's role again. As of right now, we're the middle or below middle guy when it comes to large group events or gatherings. In a small group(2-6ppl), we can get the job done well enough. Usually with less casualties. :D

I find more DDs are unprepared to take a hit if looked at by the mob, making them more of an MP/healer sponge.

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I find more DDs are unprepared to take a hit if looked at by the mob, making them more of an MP/healer sponge.

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While this used to be a concern, it really isn't anymore. Healers have essentially infinite mp. Taking 600 damage per hit, and doing nothing to stop it is just fine. It's not a big deal if a mage needs to throw a cure 5 repeatedly as fast as the recast will allow. They have plenty of mp to do so.

Personally, I don't think that PLD is completely incapable of fulfilling it's original role in a group. It's still a safer option for tanking against harder things like Rani or Apademak. As for the issue of holding hate against others... you have to go the DD route to do it.

Not much has changed from Atonement style tanking, except now it's not nearly as effective as it was before (being that atonement now only deals half dmg and monsters die too quickly for enmity to be built quickly.)
A PLD with Almace will still be tanking right alongside any MNK or NIN (even empyrean ones), because of that hate cap. With an Almace you can hit the hate cap relatively at the same time a NIN or MNK can, from there you're cotanking the rest of the fight.
The problem with that, is that it's pretty harsh that you're required to get an empyrean just to perform your original role to an adequate level. So at this point, even though PLD can still work, any help it can get won't be turned away.

just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Aeonk

Personally, I don't think that PLD is completely incapable of fulfilling it's original role in a group. It's still a safer option for tanking against harder things like Rani or Apademak. As for the issue of holding hate against others... you have to go the DD route to do it.

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I don't think anyone has ever argued otherwise. Pld can perform their roll to an average ability. However their original roll is pointless, and their "new" roll (dding) is only middle of the road, and easily beaten.

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Originally Posted by rog

I don't think anyone has ever argued otherwise. Pld can perform their roll to an average ability. However their original roll is pointless, and their "new" roll (dding) is only middle of the road, and easily beaten.

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I wouldn't say easily beaten. Vorpal blade's a great WS. Better than some weapon options (like Scythe or Great Sword.) You just can't use "Turtle" atma's if you wanna keep up.

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Originally Posted by Aeonk

I wouldn't say easily beaten. Vorpal blade's a great WS. Better than some weapon options (like Scythe or Great Sword.) You just can't use "Turtle" atma's if you wanna keep up.

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Sure, pld can beat drk, but that's one of the few jobs worse than pld.

Like i've said, pld can definitely keep up with a number of other jobs. However when compared to jobs like war, mnk, sam, etc, it simply falls too far behind.

It's unfortunate that jobs like pld, drk, rdm (to a lesser extent), etc aren't very useful, but that is the reality of the situation.

who cares if raising pld enmity cap Overpowers pld in that way they broke mnk thf and nin already may as well do this too

In most other MMOs they don't really have a cap on hate. If fact the tank usually is able to get abound 50% above everyone else on the hate table.

Its just the way FFXI works, there's no real bosses that can kill non tank classes, that make it necessary to even have a tank. If SE intends to make Paladins actually have some sort of place in the game again they need bosses that can kill damage dealer jobs but when tanked won't kill the tank.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

If SE intends to make Paladins actually have some sort of place in the game again they need bosses that can kill damage dealer jobs but when tanked won't kill the tank.

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I still don't see how they would do that.

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Originally Posted by hiko

enmity isnt the real issue, using pld being able to outenmity other DD will just end up slowing kill speed.
DD survivability IS the issue: you dont need tank if DD can survive as well without one

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The only reason DD survive rate is so high is because of utsusemi. That's not the PLD class' fault, really.

Likewise, you can't make a PLD required for everything. I'd think the class needs bigger changes, but +emnity traits might be a good start. I was once kicking around an idea to give PLD its own version of Defender (which as we know can be kept up indefinitely), but instead of raising defense it raises emnity generated by everything the PLD does. Could never think of a downside for it, though.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

In most other MMOs they don't really have a cap on hate. If fact the tank usually is able to get abound 50% above everyone else on the hate table.

Its just the way FFXI works, there's no real bosses that can kill non tank classes, that make it necessary to even have a tank. If SE intends to make Paladins actually have some sort of place in the game again they need bosses that can kill damage dealer jobs but when tanked won't kill the tank.

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You just reminded me of the old days.

*Sam goes into SC on Tiamat*
Sam: OK guys! FRAG INC!!!
Tiamat: Oh hello Mr. Sam. Say hello to my hidden counter.
*Sam die unexpectedly*
Sam: WHAT KILLED ME!? I didnt even see any damage. <,<;;

*Tiamat snickers under her breath*
Taimat: Go go Double Attack Might Strikes!

Ahh, The good ol'days of HNMs. lol Alas, those days are over now. Most of those old NMs are novelty now. As much as people hate Khimiara, I enjoyed the battle everytime I was up to tank.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The only reason DD survive rate is so high is because of utsusemi. That's not the PLD class' fault, really.

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No, it's because whms have infinite mp, and can spam cure5 for longer than the mob can attack. Not even nins should be wasting time casting utsu more often than not.

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Likewise, you can't make a PLD required for everything. I'd think the class needs bigger changes, but +emnity traits might be a good start. I was once kicking around an idea to give PLD its own version of Defender (which as we know can be kept up indefinitely), but instead of raising defense it raises emnity generated by everything the PLD does. Could never think of a downside for it, though.

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Pld does not need more enmity. They can hold hate as well as the incredibly low hate cap will allow them too. Nothing will change that.

Paladin should not receive additional attack power. Giving attack, heals and defense to one class will make it overpowered.

Paladin need to be able to mitigate damage and control fights. This is where SE need to work to get it right and some really good Ideas from peoples could make Paladin better at those two:

- Lower Cover recast to <1 mins with merit and grant a Enmity sharing or transfer with the protected player.
- Lower Shield bash to <1 mins with merit and grant an enmity similar to flash.
- Give another second hate class ability like flash/provoke. 30-40 seconds to give more controls.
- Shield to mitigate more damage. Compared to Evasion and Counter, Shield is shy...
- Shield proc rate to be augmented at 80% (rather than 65%). This to proc as good as Evasion matching lower Hit rate of 20%.
- Raise native defense/VIT (Make it usefull) of Paladin. Paladin get +60 defense and Thief +60 Evasion. 60 Evasion is way more usefull than 60 Defense. Make it +180 defense.

But even if paladin receive some buff we simply can't avoid the fact that most DD/NIN are way to good to avoid damage. I remember even before Abyssea to see mostly DD/NIN.

Just imagine each class, one by one without /NIN and see how everything come back to normal !!! Samurai co-tank use Third Eye and Monk use counter. Thief getting lucky at avoiding hits. Unfortunatly its hard to nerf something that so good and most people would not like to loose so much. I do use it myself way to often as PLD/NIN, BLU/NIN and DRG/NIN But...

Utsusemi : Ni give 4 shadows to NIN and 3 shadows to /NIN
Utsusemi : Ichi give 3 shadows to NIN but still give 3 shadows to /NIN

I think Ichi should only give /NIN 2 shadows to make it more occasionaly usefull considering the casting time... It could be a logical nerf that should have been done from begining...

/nin definitely is not the issue. Hardly anyone uses it anymore, except for soloists, and wars, which is only for the procs, not utsu.

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Originally Posted by rog

Pld does not need more enmity. They can hold hate as well as the incredibly low hate cap will allow them too. Nothing will change that.

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Well, for one it might help with itemization. PLD AF sets all have some boosters to emnity. They've also valued it on gear despite the fact that tanks generally should have a way to inherently generate more hate than the other members of the party. I guess it would go in hand with reitemizing certain gear wearable by PLDs in exchange for increased baseline emnity pre-merits, which I realize is something of a pipe dream.

The alternative is to add something to inherently decreases emnity lost per hit while equiping a shield (could toss in some passive damage reduction, as survivability is supposed to notably increase just from equipping the shield itself). The defender clone idea I mentioned could be changed to match that purpose. I know that might create something odd when combined with all the -physical damage taken stats on gear we've been seeing as of late, but it could be a start. The idea is to make them beneficial to the group without making them absolutely required.

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Originally Posted by rog

/nin definitely is not the issue. Hardly anyone uses it anymore, except for soloists, and wars, which is only for the procs, not utsu.

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Still think that if you want to tank something you need to /NIN to make it work whatever you are in a ally, party or solo. Rare sub job can give you that much survability without reducing main class damage. /DNC still give real good survability but at the expense of TP wish reduce damage output.

I agree in Abyssea most people tend to sub something else mainly because most fight again NM usualy consist of some tank either NIN/ or /NIN and DD that doesn't hit the NM since we don't want to generate TP. There is not much situation I can see a Abyssea Tank not involving shadows. Unless they kite or special tricky AOE NM.

I still think /NIN is giving too much and I still think its one of the most used sub job actualy for tank and DD jobs.

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Originally Posted by Attilas

Still think that if you want to tank something you need to /NIN to make it work whatever you are in a ally, party or solo. Rare sub job can give you that much survability without reducing main class damage. /DNC still give real good survability but at the expense of TP wish reduce damage output.

I agree in Abyssea most people tend to sub something else mainly because most fight again NM usualy consist of some tank either NIN/ or /NIN and DD that doesn't hit the NM since we don't want to generate TP. There is not much situation I can see a Abyssea Tank not involving shadows. Unless they kite or special tricky AOE NM.

I still think /NIN is giving too much and I still think its one of the most used sub job actualy for tank and DD jobs.

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mnk/sam tanks really. I don't know why you need /nin when whms have infinite mp to spam cures.

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Originally Posted by rog

mnk/sam tanks really. I don't know why you need /nin when whms have infinite mp to spam cures.

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I understand it can work as mnk/sam. But let see a MNK again NM like Rani. Im pretty sure you agree with me that MNK/NIN will outperform MNK/SAM in term of "taking less damage as possible".

There is some interesting combination out there. But up to now I have completed all abyssea zone and Cacturae and all tanks was using shadows. I doupt, but I can be wrong, that it could run as smooth if no one in the entire alliance was using shadows.

MNK/NIN and NIN/WAR tank NM in Abyssea. Other possibilities exist both they are the most efficient.