While I was leveling up my RUN today, I noticed my Drain and Aspir Sambas were not working when I was subbing /DNC. Anyone else have this issue or can explain why they don't work for RUN?
Sambas dont work for RUN
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04-01-2013, 02:53 PMAirekSambas dont work for RUN
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04-01-2013, 03:08 PMSylvinaThis is because only one status type can be attached for a weapon. So, I think you'll find that drain and aspir sambas do work, as long as you don't do any rune elementals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Airek
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04-01-2013, 10:40 PMHoradrimOnly one Additional effect can proc per weapon hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvina
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04-02-2013, 04:11 AMDemon6324236
Another job screwed by additional effect stacking problems.
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04-02-2013, 05:28 AMHoradrim...gtfo....Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236
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04-02-2013, 06:36 AMDemon6324236What? I'm just hoping the fact a new job is effected by the problem might draw attention to it, things like Excalibur being screwed by enspells, sambas being screwed by runes, maybe one day they will fix these issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Horadrim
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04-02-2013, 06:59 AMHoradrimIt's not an issue if they don't want the things to work together to begin with. Why the hell should Sambas work with EVERYTHING? Especially RUN's Runes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236
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04-02-2013, 07:09 AMVolkai
It's already been long and well established that Sambas' Additional Effect is low on the totem pole. This isn't news. If you want a Samba to proc, make sure you're not getting a proc from your Runes, end of line.
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04-02-2013, 07:56 AMDemon6324236It is an issue, it lowers the effectiveness of certain weapons and subjobs because they have not programed the game in a way that allows multiple of these effects to stack upon one another, something which should be changed. In all honesty I couldn't care less about the fact it effects RUN, other than it may help my RDM if attention is brought to it because RDM and PLD would not have to choose between the additional effect on the weapon or the enspells they can cast on themselves. Really though there is not a good reason effects like this can not stack on top of one another, they should just make it so you can not have the same effect proc on a single hit. So if I have drain samba up and my other 3 friends do, I am not gaining 4 times the HP, but if I have enspells up and runes on me at the same time I should be getting 2 additional effect damages not only one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Horadrim
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04-02-2013, 08:27 AMVolkai
Samba + Enspell + weapon En-effect = probably not something the dev team is willing to allow.
Or, Blood Weapon + Haste Samba + Endark + Additional Effect: Death, for that matter. -
04-02-2013, 11:15 AMDemon6324236Thats funny actually because none of that is overpowered in the least bit. Death only works on weak mobs, endark is for attack, haste samba is worthless most of the time because your capping JA Haste with Last Resort, and Blood Weapon is a two hour, there is no reason that should not be acceptable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volkai
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04-02-2013, 08:39 PMVolkaiOkay how about Blood Weapon + Aspir Samba + Endark + Additional Effect: BlindnessQuote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236
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04-02-2013, 09:08 PMDemon6324236Blood Weapon is again not over powered because it is a very long recast, Aspir Samba is ok because DRKs do not have any overpowering things they can get out of the extra MP. Endark is still basically for the extra attack, and Apoc additional effect is from a relic, more than deserved after all of the work someone has to put into such a weapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volkai
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04-02-2013, 10:00 PMVolkai
The issue is not that any single one of these things is overpowered, but having four additional effects going off on top of weapon damage is, especially if you have that weapon swinging rapidly.
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04-02-2013, 10:04 PMVolkai
If any additional effect would stack on another non-identical additional effect a Rune Fencer could stack three different elements of additional effect damage from Runes plus a fourth from an Enspell plus a Samba effect.
Stack all of that on dual wielding Occ. Atk. X times weapons and the crap damage they do becomes irrelevant. -
04-02-2013, 11:04 PMDemon6324236So your talking about a tank job using a weapon type that does not exist for it, and even if it did or you had something like Kclub you are feeding a mob a load of TP which will get you killed, that sounds more suicidal than overpowered. I am still waiting for the unfair super combo of additional effects that will be so broken it becomes unfair. Using old en-shaving tactics are not unfair, they are weak now days especially by what you are talking about. I understand the idea of how some of the effects may seem overpowered, but I have yet to see any combo of effects which would really be overpowered in practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volkai
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04-03-2013, 12:12 AMHoradrimThe point is there's no reason why additional effects should stack. There's just absolutely no reason for it -- Frankly, there's no reason why people should be clamoring for RUN to sub Dancer, either. I do perfectly fine solo'ing with /WHM and /PLD as long as I keep aquaveil fresh between fights, hell even when I'm /SAM an Embolden'd Protect IV, Phalanx, and Regen IV works quite fine. As far as tanking goes, the job needs more gear and probably some merit abilities before that's a practical possibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236
There's absolutely nothing of substance to be gained by allowing Additional effects to stack -- most of the additional effects are incredibly limited in their usefulness as-is, and stacking them will never have any real benefit. It's like saying you should be able to stack Protect IV and Protect V together, except at least that would have some practical use. -
04-03-2013, 12:40 AMDemon6324236Well, lets see, for a DRK they could gain the additional effects of their Apoc actually blinding a mob for them, added with their normal WS to allow for ever greater survival, where as right now they often give that up for Endark's attack bonus. RDMs and PLDs have a similar problem with Excalibur, where their En-spells must be avoided to take advantage of Excalibur's effect. Many other weapons are of a similar nature, where you must choose between them, sometimes I can understand, in the event of relics which take quite a bit of effort more than the average weapon, I believe this should be different. In the event of additional effects being given by a long recast ability such as Blood Weapon they should also be adjusted to be allowed to stack. The last of these exceptions should be in cases like RUN, where an additional effect ability is a great feature of the job, which restricts them greatly in their use of additional effects. In RUN's case why should a job be so restricted from additional effects on weapons and other abilities due to its design? It seems to me as though it should be exempt from such problems since they stem from its design itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Horadrim
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04-03-2013, 03:29 AMHoradrimQuote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236
EDIT:
I'm going to just accept not understanding why this matters and leave it at that. -
04-06-2013, 02:30 PMLosieNo, that isn't the point, you just keep trying to come up with extreme situations to prove your point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Horadrim
Unless a dev straight out says "only one additional effect should ever work, ever, and that is how it should work," then it's fair to discuss this. Should Sambas and rune fencer's abilities and such stuck? I don't know, should cocoon and protect? Why can you double up on def, but not additional effects? The obvious answer is the way the engine is programmed. Maybe people would care more about some weapons with additional effects IF stacking were viable.
It's also worth noting that Runes take precedence OVER any weapon affects, so.. hope there's not any snazzy additional effect things out there, because runes prevent them from ever working ( I had assumed the weapon would overtake whenever it proc'd, but not so. )
But yeah, you've got a weird standpoint based on some baseless assumptions. There is something of substance, and that is to allow better synergy between a few jobs and the way they interact in groups and as main/sub, and also to make weapons with additional effects more generally useful and interesting. -
04-06-2013, 05:54 PMSpiritreaverReason why it doesn't work is because SE doesn't want it too. Simplest way i can say it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Airek
This conversation played itself out countless times:
* Back in '07 it was T1 enspells over-writing sambas.
* When T2 enspells were released and do to that spell-line's mechanics offhand swings can proc sambas with T2 enspells up.
* Again when after some update i forget, sambas were being proc'd by pets(which was corrected with a swiftness i might add).
* And yet again when the situation got an interesting twist when Enlight and Endark were release and it was found that a mid-lvl WHM(Auspice i think) was treated by the game as an AOE enspell and blocked DRK and PLDs new toys.
The end result was always the same however: Because ultimately that is the way SE wants it.
Can the effects of multiple additional effects stack? My gut says prolly...if SE ever allowed it. Doubt it will ever happen though. I always just took Basil Exposition's advice and never dwelt on it too much. -
04-06-2013, 08:50 PMDemon6324236This was the last official word on stacking additional effects, which implies that they are not able to allow them stack unless they reworked the system a bit, in my opinion, when some of the best weapons and job/subjob combos in the game are effected by this in such a way, its worth the adjustment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Okipuit
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04-06-2013, 08:58 PMDemon6324236System design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritreaver
T2 spells were made flawed, they were meant to work with other additional effects by removing one of the weapons effects, in a way, it kind of proves the point that they couldn't easily work around it because otherwise they would have simply let it stack with other additional effects I think.
Pets have what to do with additional effects stacking?
A WHM spell overwriting a PLD and DRK native spell which is more powerful for them, that sounds like a reasonable adjustment to me in either case, and goes along with the idea of being unable to stack again I think, rather than it being intentional.
If thats the way SE wants it or not, they are doing it wrong, when was the last time you saw someone use an additional effect that was really helpful in battle, so helpful in fact that it would be broken if it were stacked with another? The answer is, there are no effects like that really, because most are weak, the ones that are strong cant even stack with another because they are the same kind of effect, like a strong Defense Down effect. Sambas are not that amazing unless you are a DNC, or in a party with a DNC, even then they are not all to amazing except Haste Samba, RUN's endamage is weak, nothing to be overpowered there, same with any enspell or additional effect I have seen on any player weapon I can think of really. The only possible case of it becoming to powerful is old fashioned Klub zergs, and those are so weak not that they are not worth mentioning, it anything it may make the Klub a bit more worth its price tag and rarity again. -
04-07-2013, 01:11 AMSpiritreaver
Point was SE is gonna do what they want, especially it seems in relation to how anything that is remotely related to interaction between additional effects on weapons.
Was directly addressing the OP, but thought me putting the point at both the beginning and end of my post was sufficient. Sorry you missed it. -
04-07-2013, 02:05 AMDemon6324236
Actually what you said at the start and finish is that you believe SE could already do it if they wanted to...
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Reason why it doesn't work is because SE doesn't want it too. Simplest way i can say it.
where as I think they cant, as they basically said in that post up above...Quote:
Can the effects of multiple additional effects stack? My gut says prolly...if SE ever allowed it.
To me this implies they can not simply allow both effects, one has to have a higher priority, in this case, Enlight.Quote:
changing the priority so that Excalibur's added effect is higher than Enlight would require a complete reworking of the weapon as well as limit the use of Enlight
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04-07-2013, 05:38 AMSpiritreaverIt is amazing that you can tell me what i think. good job. Seriously though guy, shove off. If i wanted to play a word game, i'd go dig one out of the closet. Anyone not looking to get into a silly and pointless argument over nothing should be able to get my point, as i'm sure the OP who i was addressing did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236
Our dialog is done. Go find another soul to hound. -
04-07-2013, 10:17 AMDemon6324236
Not hounding you... its how you worded it, what you meant is different than what you said so your sarcastic looking remark of...
Looked as though you were saying it went right over my head, rather than simply not conveying your thoughts properly. I am not telling you what you think, I am telling you what and how I read it.Quote:
Was directly addressing the OP, but thought me putting the point at both the beginning and end of my post was sufficient. Sorry you missed it.
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04-09-2013, 01:33 AMHoradrimThey've said several times over the years that they intentionally did not want them to stack. JA/Spell Additional effects are a choice -- you choose which ones you want, and if you want them to work over a weapon's base effect that's your decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Losie
That's why the conversation is asinine. It was their call, they made it, and there's no real justification for trying to call it a glitch or a flaw when it was a decision they consciously made. You can call it a bad decision, sure, but it's not a "flaw" in the system when it was something specifically designed to work a certain way.
Yeah that's pretty much how it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritreaver
Actually, they say that they can. They just don't want to -- they intentionally designed it to work the way it does and to make it work differently they'd have to rework the design -- which is exactly what was said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236
That does not even remotely sound like "We can't do it." It sounds significantly more like "We could, but why would we do that?"
It's like building a house and then deciding you want the front room to be a garage. Yeah, its right by the drive way -- you could convert it into a garage with some effort, time, and money; but if your original intention was to have a game room instead of keeping your car inside, why would you go though the hassle?
SE just doesn't WANT to make changes to a system that is functioning exactly how they originally wanted it to. Nothing they said implies otherwise.