Enmity imbalance?

I heard they adjusted the enmity for damage dealt, but was this result intended?
I was in abyssea going for rani, after pulling him, attacking several round, and landing a large WS; then whm then took his first action of the fight and cast a single cure 5 on me. And that alone was enough to take hate. - After an accomplice and another ws, whm cast a cure on himself form the atk, which took hate again and got him killed.

And this has happened in other places, not just aby. Cures seem to take a massive amount of hate compared to damage dealt to a mob. Is this just an imbalance, or the new face of fighting?

I as well noticed pretty quickly that I have to be doing things to bad things more than before, or they'll do bad things more often or more readily to them healers.

At least they already mentioned that they are indeed looking into adjustments for at least Cure V.

However, I thought the damage dealers wouldn't be restricted as much either, and I don't really see that. The healers go past them very quickly, and this isn't exactly what I find a good direction to go for. This goes for cures other than Cure V, too. Even the little cures seem to go to the top on enmity pretty easily. :/

Overall it makes things less controllable, methinks.

so does this mean duoing in abyssea is pretty much not posable atm?

katiekat,

Depends on how close to impossible you were before. ^^;

It is not an issue to me at all, that's not what I'm saying. It's just that I notice very easily that there was a change and that I definitely need to be doing more to keep the attention of a target (meaning you can't just hit them a few times, and/or weapon skill, then stop and wait for people to trigger weaknesses or whatever).

It hasn't been an issue at all to me yet while actually actively fighting a thing, but I haven't fought something like the Rani and friends after the change. I don't think it will be a real issue at all, especially since Cure V is going to see a change... probably.

I do, however, feel that there might be further adjustments to be made.

So far hate issues is not the only problem we are dealing with. There is also big problem with defense and how much damage you are taking as melee DD. Overall these new updates are just plain old terrible, not implemented well and did not even go through a proper testing. Welcome to the new FFXI, say goodbye to fun accessible events and get ready for shouts and LFG for a perfect party with your perfect jobs and E/M/R shouts or you get nowhere in this game.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

So far hate issues is not the only problem we are dealing with. There is also big problem with defense and how much damage you are taking as melee DD. Overall these new updates are just plain old terrible, not implemented well and did not even go through a proper testing. Welcome to the new FFXI, say goodbye to fun accessible events and get ready for shouts and LFG for a perfect party with your perfect jobs and E/M/R shouts or you get nowhere in this game.

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Sorry but the expansion is not one big fail, imo the only major issue at the moment is the lack of content because I really don't see much there as far as an expansion goes. All they have done is bring back strategy to a strategy MMO. Sorry it's not WoW but if that's the game you like then there are plenty of the same old MMO's out there. The defence update I actually haven't had much of a problem with because it only really effects mobs of much higher level. I still managed to take on the 6 gear train in silver sea remnants I, solo with 4 archaic gears links, meaning 10 at a time as thf/dnc. I had no issues whatsoever proving that defence hasn't effected anything pre 99.

The things it has effected are 99 events which have been scaled. The whole idea of the change was to bring back jobs that don't get chosen due to zerging everything and bring back strategy so goes completely against what you're saying, and yes you need a good setup, being a tank healer and 4 DD, same as it always was and always should be. You still have the events that can be zerged, take Qilin for example, I don't see people changing strategy on VW proving it works just fine.

The hate issues can be worked on and will be, the expansion is only a few days old, what do you expect? At least they have corrected a couple of their mistakes already. I'm basically counting this release as their beta which is kinda wrong but hey this is SE, it's to be expected! All I can see this expansion as doing is allowing people to play FFXI like they know and love from pre-abyssea while also keeping post abyssea content possible, with the exception of NNI, which strategy has been forcibly changed by SE.

At the moment, I'm taking 600-800 damage per hit from the hydra boss in salvage on Monk with Whm taking 300-400 damage per hit and pull hate very often. This doesn't count the fact that the boss can hit multiple times that can instantly kill pretty much anyone not a tank now. The damage taken is too much for 1 Whm to cure without getting massive amount of enmity. We often do salvage with only 3-4 people to keep it easier to get unlocks. I think with a low-man content, 3-4 people is about right.

We normally do it with 2 DD 1 healer or 1 extra thf. We could do it with 1 pld 1 thf 1 healer and 1 DD but that will slow us down a lot. The update seems to restrict people from doing things without a certain kind of party config as well as make content harder than it was.

It makes content harder but that just brings it back to the level FFXI was for 7 years. Before Abyssea it was considered the hardest MMO for a reason, after that it kinda slipped up and just became another WoW. Now it looks like it's back on track in that respect and has something different from the rest. I personally very much miss that satisfaction when you got something that was very hard to obtain, like take CoP 6-4 for example, took a lot of people 30+ tries, at 45 mins per try where most would fail due to the time limit. If you add it all up that's a lot of time and the satisfaction you got when you beat it was incredible. There was no way around that but to have a PLD, and no way that amazing gear would significantly help, just a case of knowing what to do and when, where skill was actually involved. That's what this new update seems to be about and I'm happy for that. It's about time people got some skill, besides all you see everyday is people complaining how Abyssea is "easy mode" then you go complain that it's too hard to get gear. It's not too hard you just need to think about things before you go do them.

Luckily, I found an instructional video that explains the new flow of combat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sstCC7T0Do4

Anyone playing BST solo in the new areas has probably died while trying to use Snarl and have hate return to them after 1 hit. I used a pet TP move followed by reward and was killed for using Spectral Jig and never hitting the mob myself. SE's attempts to "fix" things in the game almost always result in frustration and irritation. I think I will just take a break from anything involving the "fix" and wait for the repairs to be made. Which means I get to either craft or solo quests that do not require help. Time to get acquainted with the new areas and work on fame there.

I've been having similar issues to the BST problem on SMN. Almost any action will result in the mob going off your pet and attacking you and when you only have 800~1k HP, this becomes a problem fast.

The most probable reason enmity is really wonky now is due how things were adjusted. Remember there are two parts to enmity. There is the more volatile part determined mostly by raw damage and healing numbers, and the more static part which is generated by actions. The volatile portion got reduced to about 30% of what it was for endgame content, and the reductions begin around level 50 content. The static portion was not adjusted. So what this means is will not be able to tank by pure damage like many seem to have gotten used to. So abilities like provoke, flash, and ninjitsu enfeebles will need to be used again, along with enmity+/- equipment depending on jobs.

The more static enmity generation of non-damage spells and abilities will likely be adjusted in the near future, hopefully as a stop gap till the system as a whole gets reworked.

Now this hurts pet jobs more than others, because pets generate their enmity almost exclusively by damage. While pet commands generate the more static enmity which was not adjusted. Anyone who leveled BST or SMN pre-GoV by soloing mobs can tell you on longer fights it took longer and longer for the pet to regain agro when just the basic fight commands were used, let alone when issued other commands as well.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

The most probable reason enmity is really wonky now is due how things were adjusted. Remember there are two parts to enmity. There is the more volatile part determined mostly by raw damage and healing numbers, and the more static part which is generated by actions. The volatile portion got reduced to about 30% of what it was for endgame content, and the reductions begin around level 50 content. The static portion was not adjusted. So what this means is will not be able to tank by pure damage like many seem to have gotten used to. So abilities like provoke, flash, and ninjitsu enfeebles will need to be used again, along with enmity+/- equipment depending on jobs.

The more static enmity generation of non-damage spells and abilities will likely be adjusted in the near future, hopefully as a stop gap till the system as a whole gets reworked.

Now this hurts pet jobs more than others, because pets generate their enmity almost exclusively by damage. While pet commands generate the more static enmity which was not adjusted. Anyone who leveled BST or SMN pre-GoV by soloing mobs can tell you on longer fights it took longer and longer for the pet to regain agro when just the basic fight commands were used, let alone when issued other commands as well.

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seems like SE is trying to bring back the old tanking ways. looks like enmity gear/abilities voke are making a come back. but it does need a bit fixing. but so far i like the way they trying to go with it

I support anything that removes the easy mode bulls**t of abyssea and the mentality of players its created.

Most of the threads on the forum at the moment are proof of the mentality Abyssea has created, some people want it so easy but I don't get where the fun is in having gear handed to you.

I find the OP's situation a bit hard to believe. If my math is correct it takes about 1100 damage (after the reduction that occured this patch, before it it was more like 300) against a level 99 target to get the same amount of hate as a Cure V. Even if we assume that he lost a bit of hate from getting hit there's something weird going on if several hits and a big WS wasn't enough to keep hate from a Cure V.

Either this is some kind of bug or the OP is leaving something out of his story.

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Originally Posted by Winrie

I support anything that removes the easy mode bulls**t of abyssea and the mentality of players its created.

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OK, sweet. I propose that all monster abilities instantly kill anyone they hit that isn't a PLD with an Aegis in one hand an an Ochain in the other. That'll show those Abynoobs how it's done! Thank you for your support!

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Originally Posted by Kincard

I find the OP's situation a bit hard to believe. If my math is correct it takes about 1100 damage (after the reduction that occured this patch, before it it was more like 300) against a level 99 target to get the same amount of hate as a Cure V. Even if we assume that he lost a bit of hate from getting hit there's something weird going on if several hits and a big WS wasn't enough to keep hate from a Cure V.

Either this is some kind of bug or the OP is leaving something out of his story.

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Im not leaving anything out of my story. Ive been duoing colonization reives a lot lately and the same thing is happening. 80%+ of the time a simple cure 3 will take hate off a DD. Much less a cure 5...

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

So far hate issues is not the only problem we are dealing with. There is also big problem with defense and how much damage you are taking as melee DD. Overall these new updates are just plain old terrible, not implemented well and did not even go through a proper testing. Welcome to the new FFXI, say goodbye to fun accessible events and get ready for shouts and LFG for a perfect party with your perfect jobs and E/M/R shouts or you get nowhere in this game.

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I felt the "improvement to enimty" was lazy. It wasn't a revamp, they just came up with the easiest way to "fix" the problem, and surprisingly it didn't work. That's what happens when you half ass things.

I objected to the 100% increase in damage taken, even under specific conditions it was totally stupid. Hopefully it will be reduced to 25-50% max.

I notice for whatever reason, now e.p. mobs and lower are landing enfeebling magic a bit more often.

Seems my CDC has gone down in damage? Now on this one I'm not sure, I just started using Phorcys Korazin and Wanion belt over twilight mail and the kuk boss belt from aby, and I am elvaan. So maybe I'm missing on one of my hits (i'll have to check my tp gain after I ws and run a few tests), but then again, this is on e.p mobs, I shouldn't be missing.

Cure enimity is totally busted, atm, dispite player based pleas for enmity adjustments for JA and curing to go with the adjustments to damage...

P.S.- on a side note, if your company just suffered a serve setback from releasing FFXIV too early, maybe releasing this add-on like previous add-ons isn't such a smart idea at this point in time, without the full content avialable it gives a extreme case of buyers remorse. Which, since 14 flopped, isn't the position you want to put your company in, but hey, I'm not JP so WTF could I know...

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Originally Posted by Godofgods

Im not leaving anything out of my story. Ive been duoing colonization reives a lot lately and the same thing is happening. 80%+ of the time a simple cure 3 will take hate off a DD. Much less a cure 5...

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The only time I've had cure 3 take hate off me is if someone decide to cast cure III on me as soon as I begin engaging an enemy and my HP was low from a previous enemy, in which case a provoke will instantly bring the target back towards me. What you're describing simply isn't possible unless someone is doing something horribly wrong (Doing bad damage, taking way more damage than they should be, etc) or there's a bug somewhere in the system, because both cures and damage enmity were adjusted to 30% of their original values. If there is anything that was broken by the update, it's that pet jobs are now almost impossible to play because any commands will generate significantly more enmity than the pet is generating through damage.

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Originally Posted by Jaall

It makes content harder but that just brings it back to the level FFXI was for 7 years. Before Abyssea it was considered the hardest MMO for a reason, after that it kinda slipped up and just became another WoW. Now it looks like it's back on track in that respect and has something different from the rest. I personally very much miss that satisfaction when you got something that was very hard to obtain, like take CoP 6-4 for example, took a lot of people 30+ tries, at 45 mins per try where most would fail due to the time limit. If you add it all up that's a lot of time and the satisfaction you got when you beat it was incredible. There was no way around that but to have a PLD, and no way that amazing gear would significantly help, just a case of knowing what to do and when, where skill was actually involved. That's what this new update seems to be about and I'm happy for that. It's about time people got some skill, besides all you see everyday is people complaining how Abyssea is "easy mode" then you go complain that it's too hard to get gear. It's not too hard you just need to think about things before you go do them.

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See, your on drg right? I'm on pld, and i use cdc. As a Paladin, without berserker up, I'm not even breaking 2k on e.p. mobs anymore. I just figured it out now, I thought it was because i adjusted my ws gear set, but its not. It's because as a Paladin, without berserker or food up, I'm sitting at around 500-600attack in my non tanking tp set. the attack nerf is going to kill anyone that's not a serious dd job, also, the defence nerf is killing anyone not a tank. the enmity from ja and cures is unbalanced greatly. I understand all this will be adjusted, but I don't feel the DEV have any plans to reduce the adjustments for attack and defence (i feel 100% increase was overkill, literally, 25-50-% incease is more balanced, they just trashed the game because they dont play and have no clue)

I'm no game designer, but if I add 100% more of an ingredient to any reciept that somewhat tasty before, I guaruntee it's coming out screwed up.

P.S. Where is this "balance" the DEV speak of? If there were balance, it wouldn't be increasing perimeters by 100%.

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Originally Posted by Concerned4FFxi

P.S.- on a side note, if your company just suffered a serve setback from releasing FFXIV too early, maybe releasing this add-on like previous add-ons isn't such a smart idea at this point in time, without the full content avialable it gives a extreme case of buyers remorse. Which, since 14 flopped, isn't the position you want to put your company in, but hey, I'm not JP so WTF could I know...

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Totally agree. At this point they should just postpone the launch till August when they have a proper EXPANSION somewhat done. Right now we are buying a beta testing opportunity for SoA, with 2 new jobs that is barely finished. The two new activities are just plain atrocious and worse than Campaign. I mean, I understand this kind of attitude if this is an expansion released in 2004, but this is nine years later, things have changed A LOT. It seems like like they are not that stupid, Abyssea proved that they are entirely capable to create a complete content that is well thought of. Even the stuffs added after Abyssea continue this trend, as much as random number generation ruin most of them. So now we are dealing with Rieve where your mages get screwed, you can't just go in and play, there is no way of knowing where these things are unless you play jobs xyz, and all these defense enmity adjustment just wreak havoc on the whole game.

There are a lot of good ideas on SoA, but most of them are not properly finished. It is very clear at this stage that this expansion is not ready for launch and missing a lot of things. They should have postpone this, they know they are not ready, seems like Summer 2013 would be a better date. For everyone else, don't bother getting it till summer or fall 2013. Unless you are on Xbox, in which case get this now at any cost, since waiting further may result you are paying for inflated prices at Ebay.

It's a shame they don't have a test server where they can test changes before being implemented on the live worlds. Oh well, maybe one day!

Yeah going to agree the hate has become extreme, thf hits the mobs 4 times and i cast dia 2 and pull hate just like that. Any form of healing and mob is bouncing between me and DD (cure 3s) even buffs like haste, protect etc are pulling massive hate. Needs serious revision or endgame will grind to a halt.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

It's a shame they don't have a test server where they can test changes before being implemented on the live worlds. Oh well, maybe one day!

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I thought they do have a test server, for the PC people. It's forever on the logging screen right before you hit play. It is clearly they did not test all these new changes, and it is truly a shame indeed.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

I thought they do have a test server, for the PC people. It's forever on the logging screen right before you hit play. It is clearly they did not test all these new changes, and it is truly a shame indeed.

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Wooosh~...

I am seriously wondering what in the hell you people are doing that is causing your cures to instantly take hate. Aside from the amount of damage to match a cure V being really low (about 1300 as previously stated), you have a lot of default enmity- from Tranquil Heart. Try capping your skills and stop facetanking everything with berserk up and maybe you won't stop leaking hate from every pore of your body.

The hate adjustment is seriously messed up, for whm and beast and summoner, pretty much everything. You should try it. As beast master, you will loose hate by doing the simplest thing, even if you are not attacking the mob at all. Any thing you do will get hate - it's totally broken right now. And it is not fun running around finding the next tree root to kill, with an hour spawn rate, run around and round. This is better than abyssea? At least there you have proper mob to kill and actual NMs that gets you seal reward. Even voidwatch and meeble is better than this kill the stupid root over and over again....

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

The hate adjustment is seriously messed up, for whm and beast and summoner, pretty much everything. You should try it. As beast master, you will loose hate by doing the simplest thing, even if you are not attacking the mob at all. Any thing you do will get hate - it's totally broken right now.

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On topic.

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And it is not fun running around finding the next tree root to kill, with an hour spawn rate, run around and round. This is better than abyssea? At least there you have proper mob to kill and actual NMs that gets you seal reward. Even voidwatch and meeble is better than this kill the stupid root over and over again....

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Not on topic.

I do find hate to be tenuous for certain things you wouldn't necessarily expect. I can't really quantify it yet or give a better description then "my healer seems to be higher on the the hate list than expected." Not a fan of the enmity adjustment at the moment, but this is just the first iteration and I think things will be addressed.

did some testing with bst/nin in rala waterways and man the enmity is a bit over the top. most of the time i was tanking more then my pet. i bet it gonna be a pain to deal with in dynamis

Here's what happens on to me on BST. Send pet in to get in a hit or two. Heel. Mob starts hitting me. Working as intended?

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

The most probable reason enmity is really wonky now is due how things were adjusted. Remember there are two parts to enmity. There is the more volatile part determined mostly by raw damage and healing numbers, and the more static part which is generated by actions. The volatile portion got reduced to about 30% of what it was for endgame content, and the reductions begin around level 50 content. The static portion was not adjusted. So what this means is will not be able to tank by pure damage like many seem to have gotten used to. So abilities like provoke, flash, and ninjitsu enfeebles will need to be used again, along with enmity+/- equipment depending on jobs.

The more static enmity generation of non-damage spells and abilities will likely be adjusted in the near future, hopefully as a stop gap till the system as a whole gets reworked.

Now this hurts pet jobs more than others, because pets generate their enmity almost exclusively by damage. While pet commands generate the more static enmity which was not adjusted. Anyone who leveled BST or SMN pre-GoV by soloing mobs can tell you on longer fights it took longer and longer for the pet to regain agro when just the basic fight commands were used, let alone when issued other commands as well.

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This is by far the best QFT regarding this topic and is practically in line with what the devs stated about the adjustments to the enmity system...

just to reiterate what was previously stated: having enmity+ gear will increase the likelihood of the "tank" maintaining hate... since the adjustment to the system as it currently stands (past level 50) significantly reduces the amount of enmity gained from fighting the mob face-to-face... in a nutshell (PLD will RULE the day) under these conditions... with proper enmity gaining equipment, if you have a Paladin and said PLD has enmity+ gear or gear which mitigates enmity decay while taking damage etc..., you won't have problems with enmity. Even having other jobs with enmity+ gear will help while also taking advantage of the abilities/spells that increase enmity (provoke, flash etc.)

I use PUP as my primary job and for now, haven't had many issues since I've only been using WHM automaton in adoulin areas, with proper set-up and positioning w/ regards to master and automaton, the enmity never becomes an issue...but I can, with certainty, see how this is a nightmare for other jobs... as such, this definitely needs to be re-worked/fixed/fine tuned.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

The most probable reason enmity is really wonky now is due how things were adjusted. Remember there are two parts to enmity. There is the more volatile part determined mostly by raw damage and healing numbers, and the more static part which is generated by actions. The volatile portion got reduced to about 30% of what it was for endgame content, and the reductions begin around level 50 content. The static portion was not adjusted. So what this means is will not be able to tank by pure damage like many seem to have gotten used to. So abilities like provoke, flash, and ninjitsu enfeebles will need to be used again, along with enmity+/- equipment depending on jobs.

The more static enmity generation of non-damage spells and abilities will likely be adjusted in the near future, hopefully as a stop gap till the system as a whole gets reworked.

Now this hurts pet jobs more than others, because pets generate their enmity almost exclusively by damage. While pet commands generate the more static enmity which was not adjusted. Anyone who leveled BST or SMN pre-GoV by soloing mobs can tell you on longer fights it took longer and longer for the pet to regain agro when just the basic fight commands were used, let alone when issued other commands as well.

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Whatever anyone does DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS GUY.

He has it all incredibly, stupidly wrong. It's like he glanced over a hate guide written in 2005.

"Enmity" is a number composed of two other numbers, Cumulative Enmity (CE) and Volatile Enmity (VE), each has a cap of 10,000 and together form the enmity cap of 20,000. Different actions generate different amounts of CE / VE for example. +enmity on gear is just a flat +%. +5 enmity would be +5% to the value generated, -5 would be -5%.

Flash
180 CE
1280 VE

Provoke
1 CE
1800 VE

You can look up specific values at Kanican's LJ site. All the formulas were fleshed out and we now know exactly how enmity works, no guessing is needed.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

Now the primary difference between CE and VE is in how they degrade. VE will degrade at a set rate of 60 units per
second no matter what, taking damage will not reduce it. CE will only degrade when you take damage at the rate of

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[ CE Loss ] = 1800 x [ Damage Taken ] / [ Target Max HP ]

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Now out of all the sources for CE the #1 is damage by a long shot. Previously it was approximately 1 damage = 1 CE and 1 CE = 3 VE @99 (actual ratios are dependent on targets level). This means laying down a 2000 damage WS generated 2000 CE and 6000 VE making it pretty easy to cap hate with damage.

SE's "adjustment" was just a .3 multiplier to enmity generated from damage / cures. Note I just said cures, cures generate CE/VE like damage does with the exception of Cure V generating a static amount. Cure V is a 400 CE and 700 VE before -enmity gear.

Knowing all this it's pretty easy to calculate out how much enmity someone is generating and how much their losing from damage. That same 2000 WS now generates 600 CE and 1800 VE. A 200 damage melee hit will generate 60 CE and 180 VE. Damage will still beat other sources for enmity, it just takes some time to build up CE.

What's really hurting you guys is enmity loss from getting your face punched in. The "defense" adjustments weren't adjustments to the actual value of defense but to the monsters attack ratio cap. 500 defense means the same now as it did two weeks ago. 200 defense means substantially less now then it did two weeks ago, provided the monster has more then 400 attack. With Protect V most people aren't going to have to worry about "defense" issues, just don't go under 400 and your ok as very few monsters have attack over 700~750. This means berserk and LR are fine to just, just don't use both at once. Counter stance could now be a death sentence (not sure what the *new* defense calculations have it at) on anything with 600 or more attack. You absolutely most remove all defense down debuffs the monster put on you. Over the years SE went crazy with handing out AoE -50 ~ 90% defense down debuffs to everything they created. That can instantly double the damage you take. Finally some NM's are just going to suck period. SE designed certain NM's with Tp attacks that have insane attack boosts, Sutr's Heavy Strike and Pil's Flank Opening are prime examples. Unless your a BLU rocking 800+ defense those attacks are going to really hurt. I tried to warn SE to think this through but they didn't listen and even told me I was over thinking it.

Yeah we see the results now.

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Originally Posted by Kincard

What you're describing simply isn't possible unless someone is doing something horribly wrong (Doing bad damage, taking way more damage than they should be, etc) or there's a bug somewhere in the system, because both cures and damage enmity were adjusted to 30% of their original values.

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yea, your right, its a lie. Everyone got together and decided to commutatively complain about this because we had nothing better to do. And there is nothing else going on in this game that was worthy enough of or time... -_-

I've been noticing that basically anything cast by a mage is pulling enmity off anything else.

I'll engage, bully, SA > Mercy stroke > then cast regen, cure2/3 and the mage gets hate, it's a bit much.

Even 10-20 melee rounds generates lower enmity than auspice, or boost-str.

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Originally Posted by Karah

I've been noticing that basically anything cast by a mage is pulling enmity off anything else.

I'll engage, bully, SA > Mercy stroke > then cast regen, cure2/3 and the mage gets hate, it's a bit much.

Even 10-20 melee rounds generates lower enmity than auspice, or boost-str.

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Not possible. We know the hate values for both of those, their incredibly small, a fly farting would generate more hate.

2 / 3 questions

#1 How much total damage are you doing within a 30 / 60 / 90s period. That makes a very big difference early on when you have no CE / VE built up. This is the only thing "hate tools" are good for, that initial spike.

#2 How much total damage is the NM doing to you within that same 30 / 60 / 90s period.

#3 What heals and for how much is your WHM curing for. Before a 400HP cure used to be 186 CE and 1116 VE before -enmity or tranqual heart. No that same 400HP cure would be 56 CE and 335 VE. 800HP Cure IV would now be 112CE and 670 VE. These are all slight approximations, but they should be good to within the second digit. Cure V is 400CE and 700 VE. People should notice that Cure IV is now more enmity efficient then Cure V.

To "tank" things you need an initial VE spike then a period where your building CE by spamming WS's. After you got a solid hold on CE you can open up a bit. Make a PDT / MDT set, it is a life saver by not only requiring less healing (and thus less enmity generation) from your healer but also reducing your hate bleed from big TP moves.

This hate update does seem to hurt anyone outside of tank jobs rather hard.As a Bst wandering Adoulin by myself,i absolutely cannot use Guttler while fighting things or my pet will never,ever pull hate on its own. Heck I have to stay in my pdt kit just to keep my pets around long enough to solo any mobs.Even then,turning and giving my pets some time to kill the mob [lets say,halfway or so] still results in my taking direct hate the moment i turn for a hit.
Waltzing anytime during that also is rather suicidal,as the mob instantly will hit me and undo my recovery.

That being said though, a few days ago when i was doing quests with a small team [me Bst,Pup and a Pld] then we had no issues at all coasting around and killing the occasional Velkk and NM for things. So while this adjustment is seriously hurting my Solo/Mage efforts, it did do the 1 thing SE clearly wanted-Made Tanks and heavy defense jobs more desirable to anyone partaking in the current content.

Sadly,they need to realize not all of us like to wander around as tanks.

Obviously, it was hyperbole, but not that far from accurate. I'm well aware of the values, and mechanics.

It's that the (umbrils in that post) take so little damage from melee, that ~2,000 damage wasn't enough to hold enmity over a single cast of auspice, or regen 4.

Obviously after being hit, as they have near perfect accuracy. (in a "standard" tp set)

Enmity needed adjusting, I just think they overshot it, by a little (lot).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by saevel

Whatever anyone does DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS GUY.

He has it all incredibly, stupidly wrong. It's like he glanced over a hate guide written in 2005.

"Enmity" is a number composed of two other numbers, Cumulative Enmity (CE) and Volatile Enmity (VE), each has a cap of 10,000 and together form the enmity cap of 20,000. Different actions generate different amounts of CE / VE for example. +enmity on gear is just a flat +%. +5 enmity would be +5% to the value generated, -5 would be -5%.

Flash
180 CE
1280 VE

Provoke
1 CE
1800 VE

You can look up specific values at Kanican's LJ site. All the formulas were fleshed out and we now know exactly how enmity works, no guessing is needed.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

Now the primary difference between CE and VE is in how they degrade. VE will degrade at a set rate of 60 units per
second no matter what, taking damage will not reduce it. CE will only degrade when you take damage at the rate of



Now out of all the sources for CE the #1 is damage by a long shot. Previously it was approximately 1 damage = 1 CE and 1 CE = 3 VE @99 (actual ratios are dependent on targets level). This means laying down a 2000 damage WS generated 2000 CE and 6000 VE making it pretty easy to cap hate with damage.

SE's "adjustment" was just a .3 multiplier to enmity generated from damage / cures. Note I just said cures, cures generate CE/VE like damage does with the exception of Cure V generating a static amount. Cure V is a 400 CE and 700 VE before -enmity gear.

Knowing all this it's pretty easy to calculate out how much enmity someone is generating and how much their losing from damage. That same 2000 WS now generates 600 CE and 1800 VE. A 200 damage melee hit will generate 60 CE and 180 VE. Damage will still beat other sources for enmity, it just takes some time to build up CE.

What's really hurting you guys is enmity loss from getting your face punched in. The "defense" adjustments weren't adjustments to the actual value of defense but to the monsters attack ratio cap. 500 defense means the same now as it did two weeks ago. 200 defense means substantially less now then it did two weeks ago, provided the monster has more then 400 attack. With Protect V most people aren't going to have to worry about "defense" issues, just don't go under 400 and your ok as very few monsters have attack over 700~750. This means berserk and LR are fine to just, just don't use both at once. Counter stance could now be a death sentence (not sure what the *new* defense calculations have it at) on anything with 600 or more attack. You absolutely most remove all defense down debuffs the monster put on you. Over the years SE went crazy with handing out AoE -50 ~ 90% defense down debuffs to everything they created. That can instantly double the damage you take. Finally some NM's are just going to suck period. SE designed certain NM's with Tp attacks that have insane attack boosts, Sutr's Heavy Strike and Pil's Flank Opening are prime examples. Unless your a BLU rocking 800+ defense those attacks are going to really hurt. I tried to warn SE to think this through but they didn't listen and even told me I was over thinking it.

Yeah we see the results now.

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Sorry for getting the terms wrong, but the description still fits if you read what I posted instead of latching on to the wrong terminology. Also, I was not making a claim as to how the enmity system as a whole worked, but was trying to point out the fact that with the changes people will not be able to rely on damage alone to establish and maintain hate now, and would need to be using more hate tools such as provoke, flash, and ninjitsu enfeebles.

The only other part that could be affecting things being so wonky now, is not really something players can do much about. And that is if the hate decay for getting smacked is still working at 100% instead of at 30% like enmity generated from raw damage and healing numbers. Which would be making hate decay much faster than it is generated with out the use of non-damage/healing enmity generation tools.