PLD + RDM = RUN?

I been trying to think of how I may turn this into a question, but I cannot so I just have a comment. From what I have read so far it seems as if Rune Fencer is a damage dealing PLD with the best RDM abilities.

Surprise??

Not really a fair comparison, but I can see where you get it.

I will say, the parallel gives them excuse to buff the magic side of RDM and make their debuffs more potent -- such that we actually really want them in PTs. (I want to see Slow effective up to 30-40% ATSPD)

RUN is basically the self-buffing section from RDM combined with light armor from BLU and given high powered STR based WS's. They even threw in Flash for sh!ts and giggles.

Regen I ~ IV
Refresh
Barspells
Phalanx

JA form of enspells

So yeah it's pretty much melee RDM with light armor and good WS selection. It doesn't get OaT Fulg which REALLY hurts it's potential. It does get STR Magain so there is hope for a decent Weapon. And before anyone mentions bora know that it has a 0.13% drop rate, your not going to be seeing many of those and I wouldn't plan on getting one.

Rune Fencer is a Magic Defense variant of paladin.

Paladin specializes in mitigating physical damage and RUN specializes in mitigating magical damage.

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Originally Posted by saevel

RUN is basically the self-buffing section from RDM combined with light armor from BLU and given high powered STR based WS's. They even threw in Flash for sh!ts and giggles.

Regen I ~ IV
Refresh
Barspells
Phalanx

JA form of enspells

So yeah it's pretty much melee RDM with light armor and good WS selection. It doesn't get OaT Fulg which REALLY hurts it's potential. It does get STR Magain so there is hope for a decent Weapon. And before anyone mentions bora know that it has a 0.13% drop rate, your not going to be seeing many of those and I wouldn't plan on getting one.

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Borealis is still on the table as a great weapon. Just cause Ryunohige is hard to obtain doesn't mean its not considered with DRGs :Q

Though, I'll probably be rocking the Potato Peeler for a while (Jingang). That said, Its technically... much better than RDM in terms of melee, its gear options are much better. I don't expect it to be anything to write home about, But its Magical defenses are rather impressive, its just selective.

I mean, Yah, Aegis exists so PLD still wins in that department, But RUN's are AoE iirc, and they even have the ability to annul certain elemental damage, or absorb(I think absorb, cant remember).

Either way, its an Evasive tank with AoE MDef Buffs... Which seems to be good considering most of Adoulins big baddies right now have a specific element associated with them.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Borealis is still on the table as a great weapon. Just cause Ryunohige is hard to obtain doesn't mean its not considered with DRGs :Q

Though, I'll probably be rocking the Potato Peeler for a while (Jingang). That said, Its technically... much better than RDM in terms of melee, its gear options are much better. I don't expect it to be anything to write home about, But its Magical defenses are rather impressive, its just selective.

I mean, Yah, Aegis exists so PLD still wins in that department, But RUN's are AoE iirc, and they even have the ability to annul certain elemental damage, or absorb(I think absorb, cant remember).

Either way, its an Evasive tank with AoE MDef Buffs... Which seems to be good considering most of Adoulins big baddies right now have a specific element associated with them.

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I think Rune Fencer is an expression of what they wanted Red Mage and then eventually Dark Knight to be. A job the merges both the magical side and the physical side of the game together seamlessly.

The issue is, RDM suffered from becoming much too dependent on its spells (which ultimately led to what we all remember as a period of extreme dominance by the job) and Dark Knight, after attempting to make it less dependent on magic, shifted so far away from magic that it was almost stupid for a DRK to ever bother (say for Dark Magic)

Rune Fencer seems to be right down the middle -- occupying an otherwise under utilized collection of niches (Melee who can deal magic damage without casting + tank who can deal with AoE magic damage without batting an eye.)

Of course, when you consider Aegis for Paladin, some might say that PLD had the magic defense thing under control, but honestly -- if a job has no tools beyond gear to preform a task, it isn't really capable of achieving that task. (a NIN can blink tank naked, for example. Of course it' wold be tons harder, but they have, innately, all of the tools they need to achieve this goal.)

Rune Fencer and Geomancer are both examples of Square filling in gaps they've always wanted to fill, but only recently learned how to. (RUN draws a lot from the sub-menu systems developed for DNC and SCH, GEO borrows heavily from elements explored in the development of Scholar.)

I was, prior to release, really annoyed with the idea of them coming out with new jobs (as much as I was excited for RUN), but looking at the way the two work I'm surprised and impressed how little they infringe on existing jobs. One reason why RUN and GEO aren't on very much gear is because SE wants to allow them to find a unique niche of their own and an opportunity to make sure their future AF and end game gear keeps them away from usurping other jobs' positions.

I'm excited about the possibility of significant balance changes to increase the usefulness of other jobs (like Paladin, and maybe RDM). Honestly the only time I see RDM played is in FC pts.

EDIT:

They have -MDT effects, i don't think we can absorb elemental damage (yet). Unless there's a Resistance threshold that inverts damage into healing -- which honestly would make A LOT of sense, since they did that in other FF games.

I think for now its just Resistance up and -MDT.

Meanwhile -- I feel like the +AGI/EVA magian sword is a decent get, since RUN seems to rely a lot on Parry and Evasion for damage mitigation on the physical side. My biggest question lies on the potency of Foil.

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Meanwhile -- I feel like the +AGI/EVA magian sword is a decent get, since RUN seems to rely a lot on Parry and Evasion for damage mitigation on the physical side. My biggest question lies on the potency of Foil.

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Whatever you do, do not so this.

"Evasion tanking" is only for DC~EM on jobs with native evasion bonus traits. On anything that pose's a serious threat not even THF can evade a decent amount of time. Focus on STR / DPS for hate and build a -DT set for incoming TP moves.

Didn't they fix it so that hate building isn't so dependent on damage?

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Originally Posted by saevel

Whatever you do, do not so this.

"Evasion tanking" is only for DC~EM on jobs with native evasion bonus traits. On anything that pose's a serious threat not even THF can evade a decent amount of time. Focus on STR / DPS for hate and build a -DT set for incoming TP moves.

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They did. Flash and JAs are really the only tool they have now, unless runes have some enmity in them. This goes for generating Enmity though. The thing RUN may really have going for it is its damage mitigation (parry, evade, etc) as this will slow down the rate enmity is lost. As mentioned, its ability to tank will be largely dependant on AF/Relic/Empty and merits.

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Originally Posted by Delvish

They did. Flash and JAs are really the only tool they have now, unless runes have some enmity in them. This goes for generating Enmity though. The thing RUN may really have going for it is its damage mitigation (parry, evade, etc) as this will slow down the rate enmity is lost. As mentioned, its ability to tank will be largely dependant on AF/Relic/Empty and merits.

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Good god how stupid are people going to get.

At 30% of their previous value damage still crush's everything else in the hate holding department.

Go have a long look at kanican's LJ and do some basic math to get a good feed of how for ahead damage is.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Whatever you do, do not so this.

"Evasion tanking" is only for DC~EM on jobs with native evasion bonus traits. On anything that pose's a serious threat not even THF can evade a decent amount of time. Focus on STR / DPS for hate and build a -DT set for incoming TP moves.

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How about I do want I want...?

I'd like to point out that YOU are the only person who has said anything about "evasion tanking."

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Originally Posted by Horadrim

I'd like to point out that YOU are the only person who has said anything about "evasion tanking."

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In his quote it said...

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Meanwhile -- I feel like the +AGI/EVA magian sword is a decent get, since RUN seems to rely a lot on Parry and Evasion for damage mitigation on the physical side. My biggest question lies on the potency of Foil.

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Sounds like it implies EVA tanking to me.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Good god how stupid are people going to get.

At 30% of their previous value damage still crush's everything else in the hate holding department.

Go have a long look at kanican's LJ and do some basic math to get a good feed of how for ahead damage is.

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I don't count damage as a "tool" because it is something you do natively. Additionally, RUNs damage is not going to be up there with most DDs as is typical for a tank, hence the need for tools like flash.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

In his quote it said...
Sounds like it implies EVA tanking to me.

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Except it doesn't say anything about evasion tanking. I'd sooner expect my PUP to be able to EVA tank before my RUN, but I know that I HAVE been solo'ing a hell of a lot since getting the job to 99 -- but I guess there's no way on earth the guy who spends 90% of his time on the game solo'ing things plans to use the his second high evasion job to solo. No way that's a possibility, yep, the only reasonable expectation is that he wants to tank ALL THE MEGABOSSES.

I didn't know the only use for damage mitigation was tanking, I guess you learn something new every day.

While you're reaching, why don't you shove your hand on up and see if you can get pull your head back out.

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Originally Posted by Delvish

I don't count damage as a "tool" because it is something you do natively. Additionally, RUNs damage is not going to be up there with most DDs as is typical for a tank, hence the need for tools like flash.

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I think we can all agree that RUN's possible future as a tank depends heavily on the nature of the gear, merits, and additional abilities it receives in the coming patches. I think its a bit asinine to argue over the specifics of how it could possibility tank, or rather hold hate for the purpose of tanking, when it is clear that there are several adjustments on the horizon for not only the job, but the whole way that tanking and enmity works as well.

I'd like to hope there's a big picture we can't see that will come into play in the near future.

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Originally Posted by Horadrim

Long quote.

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Look, you said something about an EVA/AGI weapon, seeing as there is no use for EVA/AGI for anything but EVA tanking, and the fact you said "RUN seems to rely a lot on Parry and Evasion for damage mitigation on the physical side" it seems as though your idea is to in fact use RUN for EVA tanking for Physical damage. In which case as it was pointed out, using -DT is much better, especially when you use it on a job with Native Phalanx, where damage can be as low as 0 depending on mob and gear. You are acting like I said you planed to EVA tank everything, or that he did, in either case it is wrong, the simple fact you said anything about making an EVA GS implied that there were things you were planing to use that on, which I am sure is what prompted his reply.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Look, you said something about an EVA/AGI weapon, seeing as there is no use for EVA/AGI for anything but EVA tanking, and the fact you said "RUN seems to rely a lot on Parry and Evasion for damage mitigation on the physical side" it seems as though your idea is to in fact use RUN for EVA tanking for Physical damage. In which case as it was pointed out, using -DT is much better, especially when you use it on a job with Native Phalanx, where damage can be as low as 0 depending on mob and gear. You are acting like I said you planed to EVA tank everything, or that he did, in either case it is wrong, the simple fact you said anything about making an EVA GS implied that there were things you were planing to use that on, which I am sure is what prompted his reply.

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Why are you trying to pick a fight? Can you stay on topic? and add something beneficial to the conversation regarding the usage of run's tools?

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Originally Posted by Cljader1

Why are you trying to pick a fight? Can you stay on topic? and add something beneficial to the conversation regarding the usage of run's tools?

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I partially did, I am not trying to fight with people I am trying to make sure my statements and others statements are not taken out of context so they can be interpreted properly. The part I did actually contribute is the fact that RUN has native Phalanx just like PLD, which means stacking PDT with Phalanx is a very viable strategy rather than using its natural EVA and Parry as its main defensive measures. While its high EVA and Parry along with its Parry JT are helpful, it is more likely that you will get use out of a PDT/Phalanx combo because they are direct damage reductions, where as EVA and Parry have a chance to proc. Its basically the same idea as with RDM tanking, if you stack enough PDT and then use Phalanx with capped Enhancing magic on it, you end up taking almost no damage, and depending on the mob, possibly no damage at all, RUN has the same potential to do just that.

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Originally Posted by Delvish

I don't count damage as a "tool" because it is something you do natively. Additionally, RUNs damage is not going to be up there with most DDs as is typical for a tank, hence the need for tools like flash.

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Go learn the enmity formulas and how hate is gained / lost.

ProTip:

After the first 30~60s Flash could end up hurting your total enmity gain. There is an opportunity cost involved in that for it's casting duration and a 2 second period afterward your attack round is paused. That missing damage is lost CE along with the missing TP that generates a WS that is more lost CE. The amount lost depends highly on how good your gear is and how many buffs you have on. With good gear, haste spell and hasso I would not be trying to spam flash. What you need to know is flash is sh!t enmity. It's only 180 CE and 1280 VE. VE is easy to cap really fast and thus your primary hate methods revolve around generating CE. #1 best generator of CE is damage by a very large amount.

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Originally Posted by Harle

Rune Fencer is a Magic Defense variant of paladin.

Paladin specializes in mitigating physical damage and RUN specializes in mitigating magical damage.

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With a dash of PUP maneuvers thrown in.