Red Mages for native duel wield

For those of us that enjoy dd rdm the biggest issue is that to employ full potential dps we are locked into either /nin or /dnc. considering the numbers of jobs that now have native dw, (nin, dnc, thf, blu) it seems a reasonable idea to gain even just DW 1. this would have a massive effect. /war becomes a great dd option, while /sch can be a potent support job, considering that buffs like phalanx t1 enspells and the like are all AoEable centered from the rdm, so with the rdm in with the dds gives great ease of aoe buffing. this could potentially lessen, if not remove, many of the issues rdm, dds in particular, have currently with the job. And would not take much effort from the Dev team. its a win win!

Why do they need duel wield, wouldn't it be better if they had a high level of fencer trait with better bonuses to acheave the same bonuses one handed or enspells that actually boosted output over duel wielding? I only see people using DW for added damage. RDM has nothing to make it more efferent to single wield such as a real hit multiplier not just a percentage double attack temper.

What I'm saying is if single handed main only was enhanced to exceed DW benefits then players wouldn't need to DW to give the extra output. This could be done by enspells, having a multipliyer trait for using only the main hand as a weapon. Meaning if you have double attack 1 handed its upgraded to 4x, or enspells get doubled/tripled and delay is cut in half.

Don't get to upset about this comment I'm just throwing something out there without doing all the math. If someone decides to look at it then they'll figure out the details. IMHO RDM shouldn't need DW to perform well. It should be treated with something that augments the class greater then it already has available. Frankly, I don't know why they never gave RDM fencer when it's lore has the fighting style of a fencer.

Fencer only gives at most 9% crit rate.
Native DW opens up massive subjob options, and while rdm dd being good w/o dw would be great, Id rather try for something the Devs cant really say their "thats more then we can do right now" crap.

Dual wield is the best option for DD RDM. Being able to use two weapons with attached bonuses (be it pure dmg, stats, store tp, ect.) far outweighs anything fencer could do for us. Having native DW in some form would open up so much in subjob potential. Even the idea for DW0 and a spell to increase it's potency (like temper for DW) would be great.
RDM could /WAR for berserk and even more double attack. We could go /DRK for last resort (even without the haste) and still have CS stun if needed. /SAM would give store tp and self skillchain abilities.
Best of all, for my personal use, I could finally melee and go /whm to keep my wife (DRG/SAM) happy by keeping us alive easier (note: keeping her alive easier) without a huge drop in my DPS capabilities. (I do so love my /dnc though)

I agree with sarick, I hate that this game basically requires 1 handers to have dual wield if it wants to DD, I feel like dual wield should be more of an alternative for those without shield skill than a must have for all 1 handers. I'd much rather see shields with improved stats to replace the need for off hand weapons, improved fencer for /war levels*, stronger OA2-3 swords, more double attack gear for rdm, add effects to enspells like enlight and endark get, basically stuff that makes rdm swing faster and stronger with 1 weapon than 2.

*I say improved for /war cause then rdm would have the choice of /war for more DD traits or /Mage for more magic traits, /war is a great way for rdm to gain a bunch of DD power and I feel like buffing /war fencer would be better all round in de-emphasising dual wield than simply giving rdm native fencer.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I agree with sarick, I hate that this game basically requires 1 handers to have dual wield if it wants to DD, I feel like dual wield should be more of an alternative for those without shield skill than a must have for all 1 handers. I'd much rather see shields with improved stats to replace the need for off hand weapons, improved fencer for /war levels*, stronger OA2-3 swords, more double attack gear for rdm, add effects to enspells like enlight and endark get, basically stuff that makes rdm swing faster and stronger with 1 weapon than 2.

*I say improved for /war cause then rdm would have the choice of /war for more DD traits or /Mage for more magic traits, /war is a great way for rdm to gain a bunch of DD power and I feel like buffing /war fencer would be better all round in de-emphasising dual wield than simply giving rdm native fencer.

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DW III + Suppa offers a 42.8% DPS bonus along with an extra hit during WS over single wielding.

Now sit down and get that through your head for a moment. 42.8% melee damage increase.

Fencer would have to be a +50% damage to rival DW and somehow I don't see that happening ... ever.

The reason DW is brought up so often is that it's the single largest increase in damage capability. The 2nd largest is currently /WAR for Berserk and +10% DA. The combination of those two is the primary reason that MNK (MA instead of DW), NIN, BLU, THF and DNC are able to deal so much more damage then RDM. The secondary reason is the sheer difference in gear levels, though this discussion isn't about gear.

In order to make RDM remotely competitive (as in worth taking along instead of a BLU or DNC) SE would need to introduce native DW or a method for RDM to buff their Attack along with greater gear access (DA / TA / sTP / Haste / Attack / +Crit).

Instead of DW, they could look at the jobs that have Shield Mastery and realize that the trait is an absolutely trap. Getting more TP back for blocking is an easy way to stop people from asking what PLD or RDM actually needed out of Shield Mastery to make sword and shield effective. Shield Mastery needed to make PLD and RDM retort on block, not gain a couple extra points of TP >IF< they managed to take damage.

You take 0 damage because you're a beastly PLD or you have stoneskin up all the time because you're a RDM? Well looks like shield mastery did less than nothing for your offense. It gave you the illusion you were going to get something, but then it never happened.

Making Shield Master good is basically all you would have to do to make both PLD and RDM good. This wouldn't be the same as MNK counter, which negates the mobs attack from ever happening. You take the hit and then you retort. It's the same as an attack round and you can benefit from things like double attack and additional affects. You also get full TP from your retort(s).

Further, it is only a powerful tool if the PLD or RDM is actually keeping the mobs attention because as soon as you aren't getting hit, you stop getting extra attacks. Cover makes PLD or RDM/PLD actually useful instead of being a bad JA. And as it should be, PLD has reprisal which means it would be the superior sword and shield user, not to mention Aegis and Ochain are very broken as far as shield mechanics go. Not to mention they get Shield Mastery at lvl 25 vs lvl 87 naturally or 59 with an Adoubeur's Pavise.

For balance purposes, there could be a proc rate to retorts or an internal cooldown. You could only retort mobs that you were targeting. Etc. But just look at WAR and MNK. They can already do this. Why would it be broken for jobs that use Swords and aren't top tier DDs, instead damage jobs that use H2H or GREATAXES to be able to do the same? It's just discrimination honestly.

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P.S. Because RDMs and PLDs aren't discriminatory, PUPs Valoredge should get this too. Mostly because PUP isn't that popular either.

I wouldnt be opposed to single wield, however, dual wield has also the cosmetic/asthetic appeal too so sign me up for this idea!

I want DW, be it normal DW, or my RDM DW Idea from before. The job really needs a melee buff, so it can really be a Jack of all Trades, for now it lacks the melee for that title, and is simply an alternative SCH which is weaker than the original in 95% of cases.

I think the ones reverting to OMG the fencer example isn't useful was over looking into the concept. Those bonuses needed are what you get in duel wield modified into a single handed bonus to MATCH or exceed duel wield could instead be made. I fear the logic of players sometimes who take raw numbers to critically. It's like algebra where the equations can have variables that determined other numbers that aren't known yet.

A + B = C

When you design a new feature you figure out what those numbers are that make it worth while. You an put the damage potential of dual wield on paper all you want but until the same is done for the alternative none existent ideas your math calculations are flawed. It's like comparing a horses to cars in the 1300's. In the 1300s they didn't have cars yet so they couldn't really compare them as alternatives to horses.

This is what I was trying to explain, if your going to make the job closer to game LORE duel wield isn't the ligament answer. Making the one handed attacks fit with game lore is the way to go. The alternative must not be like they have enspells setup today with the weak laughable comparison. Such as making (PURELY AN EXAMPLE!!!!!!!) the enspells inflict x times damage and accuracy when only welding one weapon.

You're real goal is to figure what work and improve it enough that you won't be stuck on the notion of only using dual wield. Think outside the box stop using a lazy logic that only one path exist because it's already beneficially accepted.

When you build a new house out in the middle of no where there are no roads, phones or power lines leading to it. You obviously need to create solutions first before complaining about potholes that don't exist yet. Math doesn't always need real numbers either because sometimes you can figure things out without knowing actual information.

Example: "How long is a rope?" Well there isn't enough info without measuring it first but you can still answer the question with something like "It's length is half it's size multiplied by two." This is how you make a working equation without knowing the real numbers.

So next time think outside the box. If something you think up doesn't work right be creative, think creative and use/make new variables that may or may not already exist. It's really simple to understand. You don't have to follow common locked trends. You can always create something better then whats already available if you put your minds to it.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

I want DW, be it normal DW, or my RDM DW Idea from before. The job really needs a melee buff, so it can really be a Jack of all Trades, for now it lacks the melee for that title, and is simply an alternative SCH which is weaker than the original in 95% of cases.

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As /NIN or /DNC, you are at least close to a jack of a DD. You can use enspells, additional affects, temper, and gain spells to make up some of your damage gap between you and a real DD, but you're never going to actually get there because SE decided that it would be improper to make us an actual substitute DD. I'm still of the mindset that RDM needs adjustments to it's enspells to make up a larger portion of the difference between you and a DD because then you are DDing like a RDM again instead of like any other DD. When we ask for native dual wield, we are all basically asking to be able to dual wield and have /WAR because that is the game right now. But as soon as we are as good as another DD by playing the same game and the same rules that they do, we win and thus we lose. We would be overpowered and we would be better than other jobs not only by potency but diversity.

We are allowed to get a lot of nice things that we can freely switch between (not do at the same time because you can only do one thing at a time) because we are designed to have some shortcomings compared to other jobs. I'll agree that we don't seem to get as many good things as we did previously, but you can have dual wield. You just have to pick a subjob that supports that decision. The problem I still have is that IF you don't dual wield, you are completely ineffective from a DPS standpoint. You are completely insignificant and extremely below average. In the current climate of capped haste, obvious gaps between 1h and 2h, and ridiculous amounts of dual wield being available to native dual wield jobs, we are lagging behind considerably if we don't have at least some dual wield.

Doing /WAR, currently, does nothing except give you access to red procs in aby. It adds nothing to your character outside of superfluous procs. Sanguine Blade is cool but post healing skill adjustments you really shouldn't need it. I save time getting red procs just to notice how slowly I kill things because I'm no longer a pseudo DPS.

Further, as /PLD you aren't a jack of tanking because PLD isn't the King of tanking anymore. WARs and MNKs in aby were considered 'tanks' because they gained extra benefits from being the focus of a mobs attentions. PLDs didn't get this kind of consideration and thus were not tanks in aby, which is completely absurd because they are THE tanking specialist. RDMs weren't considered at all in aby and thus were terrible. This kind of oversight is toxic to our community because it allows a game with 20 (soon to be 22) jobs to be redundant instead of diversified and flexible. People like their jobs, obviously, because RDMs still exist regardless of their complete lack of importance from any standpoint in the game at all. SE needs to look at their discarded jobs and start doing very intensive maintenance on them. The fixes that they do need to be both relevant to the identity of the job as well as the current and future climate of the game. This is imperative to keeping a larger population for their game and for us to play with in their game.

PLD and RDM could be fixed if they would fix sword and shield. Neither having access to Fencer natively if affable at best and SEs continued stance of Excalibur and other additional affects interacting poorly with Enspells is deplorable because it does nothing but punish both jobs after they are already out of favor and severely behind in use. Super tanking being your only use in end game is extremely insulting because it is the lowest level of interaction with the mob. The current slogan for PLD should be, just cure yourself, because that's all you'll ever do. While they are changing the Enmity system to be less damage friendly, it still doesn't change the fact that PLD and RDM are both pathetic DPS without dual wield and that seems very out of place from the rest of the game.

Would it really be so bad to make PLDs and RDMs be good at 1v1 combat with a sword and shield? It's not like PvP is coming back, I'm well aware of how powerful both jobs are in PvP, but most of us don't spend any time in any given week PvP because there are no actual rewards to gain or meaningful bragging rights to be won. If you made shield mastery good for both jobs they could be sent out on all floors on NNI because they wouldn't lose potency if they were fighting a mob that would only be hitting them. That means you could actually bring a tank to NNI. Any boss that we could keep hate on, we would be a valuable asset to our party, because both jobs take less damage than most jobs in the game. PLD could be a main tank and RDM can be a back up tank. I've held most mobs in aby on my RDM when I was back lining it and my a party wipes. It's not hard for us to do. Super tank or not, RDM performs well as an emergency tank or an add tank and it always has and always will. But that simply isn't good enough because that function excludes us and PLDs from regular party setups.

RDMs other grievance is their equipment selection. I have both a Nusku's and a patentia sash and my RDM can't use either even though a BLM can. We only have access to dual wield on our body if we use our expansion body which is a terrible decision. We don't have the ability to use an Almace because we aren't on Hecatomb's regardless that it's a harness set and BRD is on it. We don't need to be on medium DDs sets, we just need to be on pieces that would have made sense for us to be on to begin with. We lack access to the useful pieces that aren't directly categorized as Heavy DD, Medium DD, and Mage. The is a severe lack of scale mail in the game and while I am grateful for the Dux as a PDT set there is nothing scale mail that you could TP in save an Augmented Crimson Scale Mail Body, which is neither readily available nor easily augmented to a competent piece since wyrmal abjurations are pricey. I used to wear all scale mail when I leveled RDM, it's ridiculous that we aren't on things like, Grandoyne's Mail from meebles. The Ace's Mail set is also pretty suspect. Hey look guys, premium quality scale mail, not for RDM.

TL;DR
Make these changes for RDM and PLD:

• Enspells in general + with additional affects
• Shield Master = Retort, not useless
• Where is my Fencer at for sword and shield jobs?
• Give RDM gear so that it can play a jack instead of an 8 or a deuce in some cases. Back up tanking and DPSing should be relevant and supported by having competent pieces and game mechanics.

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Originally Posted by saevel

DW III + Suppa offers a 42.8% DPS bonus along with an extra hit during WS over single wielding.

Now sit down and get that through your head for a moment. 42.8% melee damage increase.

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when i read this, a lil voice in the back of my head said "the devs are gonna nerf dw" >.>

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Originally Posted by Reaper

when i read this, a lil voice in the back of my head said "the devs are gonna nerf dw" >.>

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THF, DNC and NIN's all have much higher DW then that and their still quite a ways behind 2H DD in damage potential. That's how power most 2H DD have become, mostly from a combination of JA, JT and gear options.

ok new on this forum but have a question... i just used same account for xbox for pc but expandsions not installed on it.... how do it retreive

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Originally Posted by saevel

THF, DNC and NIN's all have much higher DW then that and their still quite a ways behind 2H DD in damage potential. That's how power most 2H DD have become, mostly from a combination of JA, JT and gear options.

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I wanna believe that the 1-handed update will bridge some kind of a gap; or at least make them competitive, but I just can't commit to that yet lol. It's a shame too cause most of my favorite jobs these days (BST, RDM, NIN etc) are all 1 handed jobs.

I'd honestly like to see all jobs that use 1-handed weapons get dual~wield in some level or form in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Ramaza

I wanna believe that the 1-handed update will bridge some kind of a gap; or at least make them competitive, but I just can't commit to that yet lol. It's a shame too cause most of my favorite jobs these days (BST, RDM, NIN etc) are all 1 handed jobs.

I'd honestly like to see all jobs that use 1-handed weapons get dual~wield in some level or form in the long run.

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All the update is doing is giving 1H the same attack ratio cap as 2H which is an increase from 2.0 to 2.25. This is only important in big zerg fights where your being super buffed by a COR and two BRDs, otherwise you'll rarely actually hit that cap. A monster with 400 defense would need 900 attack to cap @2.25, that's an EP to a 99 player. Anything higher requires more attack though defense down effects do become extremely potent at that level.

Honestly the big difference between 1H and 2H is the gear, 2H just gets so much more raw +attack and +STR along with native access to +attack JA's. That's without going near the insanely powerful JA haste effects they also get to go with all that. 1H could have a chance but only if SE allows the upcoming modification to LR to apply to them, which it appears their not doing.

Now after all this you get to see that Sword + Board is at the very bottom of the damage scale, so far down that it's simply not worth using. You sacrifice too many damage for nearly nothing in return, only PLD's get anything meaningful and even then it's still not worth giving them a slot.

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Originally Posted by saevel

All the update is doing is giving 1H the same attack ratio cap as 2H which is an increase from 2.0 to 2.25. This is only important in big zerg fights where your being super buffed by a COR and two BRDs, otherwise you'll rarely actually hit that cap. A monster with 400 defense would need 900 attack to cap @2.25, that's an EP to a 99 player. Anything higher requires more attack though defense down effects do become extremely potent at that level.

Honestly the big difference between 1H and 2H is the gear, 2H just gets so much more raw +attack and +STR along with native access to +attack JA's. That's without going near the insanely powerful JA haste effects they also get to go with all that. 1H could have a chance but only if SE allows the upcoming modification to LR to apply to them, which it appears their not doing.

Now after all this you get to see that Sword + Board is at the very bottom of the damage scale, so far down that it's simply not worth using. You sacrifice too many damage for nearly nothing in return, only PLD's get anything meaningful and even then it's still not worth giving them a slot.

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I know. I'm just willing to take any buff they throw out at this point. We're already at the bottom. There's nowhere to go but up at this point. I'm skeptical about this new expac offering the gear to further bridge the gap, but we'll see what happens.

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Originally Posted by Ramaza

I know. I'm just willing to take any buff they throw out at this point. We're already at the bottom. There's nowhere to go but up at this point. I'm skeptical about this new expac offering the gear to further bridge the gap, but we'll see what happens.

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Well in reality they can fix RDM if they simply give it the good light DD gear that comes with the expansion rather than leaving it out once again. Then RDM could actually melee and support at the same time and be much more useful, especially since it seems like something that might actually be nice in the new expansion areas.

I still want scale mail instead of light DD. Obviously, you could put the same stats on both pieces, but scale mail usually focuses on higher defense and sometimes attack/STR, where as light DD is usually DEX/AGI and we only need one of those 2. I'll happily take STR and Def, especially with what's coming up for the expansion.

I agree that scale is light armor but armor is not what light DDs wear.

The problem with scale mail is its not TP gear, which is what we lack more than anything. I understand the idea of wanting that kind of gear, its good, but we need TP gear too, and right now our TP gear is what leaves our DD power behind by much to far.

Really? Because Grandoyne's Mail or Ace's Mail would have easily solved RDMs Haste problem. Bad Haste bodys are our plague.

Not just body, we have bad options for feet too, head options are not all to great either. Legs we have good because of Rubeus and Calmecac, Hands are good too, belt we thankfully have too. So we have good options for about half, but the other half is fairly bad for Haste. If we had Ace's Mail, or Grandoyne's then yeah, we would have some nicer sets, but it still would be lacking in my opinion, and those are heavy DD pieces anyways, things RDM would never be considered for no matter the class of armor. In reality I think SE doesn't care about armor class anymore anyways, afterall, our last two Tabard sets were Athos and this new set, both of which exclude RDM, the job who normally is on all Tabards and has Tabards as its AF and Relic even. If we had those as well, then all would be good.

Meh, they are scale mail models, no reason we shouldn't be able to wear them. The feet are a problem, but honestly we shouldn't have access to optimal TP sets, because we aren't classified as a DD. We should have to compromise at least some because of the flexibility we have. If we had a good Haste scale mail body we would be at an acceptable level for a job that isn't actually a DD.

It's just silly to be asking to be on light DD sets when it's clear that SE doesn't have any interest in us being there. In between pieces aren't unreasonable because we actually get those and since Scale Mail is in between Heavy DD and Light DD and we are historically on it, it's not really unreasonable to ask for things that could be furnished.

My biggest complaint is that almost all of the new mage gear is worthless for a well geared RDM. Either our AF, Relic, or Empy trounces it because they were designed to compensate for RDMs inferior stats, skills, and JAs OR it's just not better than things like Morrigan's +1 or older abjuration gear with good augments.

The one thing that made me extremely happy was Bihkah Sword +1. Is so nice for an offhand for an Excalibur. More HP for additional affect procs? CHECK. Good DMG and Atk/Acc+? CHECK. HASTE AND PDT? THANK YOU. Is so nice.

The weapons are kinda bleh though, the AH STR dagger is still better.

so is offhanding an Ephemeron or Mandau

Well yeah, but those are much less realistic options for an offhanded weapon. My point was that the new weapons are out classed by an easily obtainable weapon you can pick up at your local Auction House, let alone the more extensive options. Really this update was very lackluster for RDM in my opinion, all mobs are T+ which makes them hard to melee, especially the more evasive ones, the events are the same way, hard to melee, and our magic is still out classed by a SCH so without melee RDM serves little purpose. The gear RDM was put on is not optimal for anything except perhaps the head could be used for White Magic Enfeeblings, but thats barley better than HyaHat and eats up another slot of inventory, the only other possible piece is the legs, if they have more than 5% Fast Cast. On top of everything else, RUN has effectively stolen any real power RDM melee actually had, and instead has all of the gear we need as well, leaving us in a spot no better than we were before the update.

i think it's been said before, but my opinion is that giving RDM a form of dual wield by offering a dagger in the offhand while main-handing a sword (and even possibly vice-versa) and calling it

Main Gauche

giving it tiers and having it be native, i think, would be a true, unique boon to RDM. give up your dream of two swords (beg for more daggers), rally behind this, and i think you might get it...!

off topic, tho, i can't believe Main Gauche (a dagger seen throughout FF) was used as DNC's mythic base rather than saved for something frenchie for the RDM

I would be fine with that, especially since RDM's best offhand weapons are daggers, but with that trait we could not have unique daggers that are allowed for it only, it would have to be all daggers, so that Mandau, Aluh, and Oneiros could be used still, otherwise it would still suck probably.

I'm curious what can be augmented using the new system they have in the expansion. http://www.ffxiah.com/item/20742/iztaasu in particular interests me, but obviously if you can Augment previously existing gear, then this could blow up really fast.

In all honesty it depends on what they do exactly, some augments seem worthless, and we need some very potent ones for any of this gear to be of use, to me at least. That sword for instance would need quite the boost, some STR, some Attack, maybe some MND, I doubt it will have something awesome like Ephemeron's TP drain, and there is only so much base stats on a weapon can do to help out RDM right now. As for TPing or WSing, none of the pieces are really good for it even with some good augments, and for actual magic gear, we have that easily beaten, the most promising gear was the legs, and thats only 5% Fast Cast, which is the same as augmented Blood legs or Fea's, which is not good.

Oh yeah, nothing supporting RDMs mage side in the slightest this update. I would complain more but Morrigan's + Augmented gear pieces are just plain better than almost anything else in the game and we are all over them. Xux's hat is super cool looking though and sometimes that's enough to distract me from.......what were we talking about again?

I don't think that SE should start giving out Dual wield like it's candy. I think if SE should add anything to the RDM pot, it should be native occ. attacks twice job trait. SE should also provide us with tier III enfeebs, allow us to cast enspells on others and make composure and AOE effect JA. I think those could help to make RDM a bit more appealing again.

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Originally Posted by Perdition

I don't think that SE should start giving out Dual wield like it's candy. I think if SE should add anything to the RDM pot, it should be native occ. attacks twice job trait. SE should also provide us with tier III enfeebs, allow us to cast enspells on others and make composure and AOE effect JA. I think those could help to make RDM a bit more appealing again.

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Look up the spell Temper.

Enspells cast on others, even if it was single cast, could be very useful.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Look up the spell Temper.

Enspells cast on others, even if it was single cast, could be very useful.

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Good point...