Concerning the "Windows XP Support Information" threads that were made

Now that you are ending Windows XP support, does this mean you will update the game client so that it performs as well in Win7/8 as it did in XP?

I'm not using XP myself, but when I did, I always got a lot better performance there than I did on Win7, even if I used the same hardware.

I'm sure they'll get right on that, just as soon as they improve Xbox 360 performance after the PS2 is no longer supported.

I wouldn't hold my breath.

I'll bet my last dollar this just means they won't field support calls about installs on XP machines anymore, rather than a complete client rewrite that kinda-sorta works on XP the same way the current one kinda-sorta works on Vista/7/8.

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Originally Posted by Limecat

I'll bet my last dollar this just means they won't field support calls about installs on XP machines anymore, rather than a complete client rewrite that kinda-sorta works on XP the same way the current one kinda-sorta works on Vista/7/8.

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More or less I aggree its about bean counters cutting corners to save money. This probably isn't being done to enhance the game just save money by not supporting paying customers who are running an older operating system. It's not like the support staff was able to fix complex issues anyway. XP still technically has a full year under it's belt before MS actually ends support. I can't read Japanese so I can't see if there is a post on that they're doing the same in Japan with XP.

Either way, I'm sure others purchased the expansion pre-order already thinking tthey'd be getting full support only to have SE pull the rug out from under them. You know its kind of like bait and switch at the last moment. I have a feeling if they do make changes it'll break the game for the unsupported setups. If it isn't obvious, I'm really upset about how things are being run so I'm hoping this backfires on them horribly just like FFXIV did.

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[NA] Windows XP Support Information
We regret to inform you that Final Fantasy XI / PlayOnline will no longer support Windows XP in accordance with the following schedule.

Due to the fact that Microsoft(R) has already completed the support life cycle of this product, we have found that continuing support for this OS is a difficult proposition.

At the time support for this product ceases, the software you are currently using will continue to function and games will still be playable. We will also continue to perform regular updates of existing software. However, after the date when we discontinue support, we will as a general rule no longer be able to provide support for problems arising as a result of the operating system.

Furthermore, customer support for members utilizing this operating system will still be available through the Square Enix Support Center.

[Support End Date]
March 26th, 2013

[Affected Operating Systems]
Windows XP

Square Enix Support Center
http://support.na.square-enix.com/

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hmmm.... they kinda jumped the shark there, eh? Micro$oft extended XP SP3 support until April 08, 2014.

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windo...ofsupport.aspx

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Windows XP SP3 and Office 2003Support Ends April 8, 2014

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Basically all they're saying is they aren't going to bother helping any XP users with install issues that are a result of Windows specific problems after next month I guess. Which I find kind of odd, considering there aren't really issues with Windows XP specific incompatability. It's kinda funny....I was running 98SE until I got into FFXI roughly a decade ago. If not for FFXI, I might have held out until I felt the need for my next rebuild--and might have wound up skipping XP completely. I have NEVER had any issues with running FFXI in XP--and I've gone through at least 5 rebuilds of my system, going through several motherboards (Intel and AMD CPU based) and about 8 video cards (both ATI and nVidia) over the years. Getting FFXI to run on newer OS's though, that is a whole other ball game.

People in XP having issues are usually due to something else not tied specifically to XP itself. It may be a generic networking/security problem, or a problem with a third party piece not under Microsoft's responsibility (Steam install problem, driver or hardware problem/conflict, third party software conflict, etc.).

The people typically having problems these days are in the newer versions of Windows...and a lot of that is ultimately due to the way Microsoft knackered up legacy DirectX support in Vista/W7/W8. And a lot of what isn't DirectX/Driver related are often problems with UAC/Aero (features added in post XP versions of Windows). These types of problems simply are not present in XP (except maybe new vid cards that have shotty XP driver support perhaps, but that is an issue with ATI/Nvidia/Creative/Asus/Dell/etc. support, and not Windows per se). For an XP install...provided you have the proper drivers installed for your hardware (a vendor issue, not specifically an XP issue) you basically just install the game, register and what not, and play the game. It's the Vista/W7/W8 crowd that have to jump through so many hoops.

Oh well... not like it's the first snafu they've ever made in the support arena.

About the only thing I can think of is perhaps we are finally going to get that DirectX update we were expecting years ago...considering that is basically what the problems boil down to in Win7/8---the thunking back to pre DX10 is what is wreaking so much havoc with driver support on the newer DX11 cards put in these systems that come with W7/8 installed on them. But...even so, it shouldn't cause a problem so long as they stay within the DX9c realm.

In contrast, XP is acceptable for the ARR beta.

http://entry.ffxiv.com/beta/detail_na.html

The more I think about it, the weirder this announcement gets.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

It's the Vista/W7/W8 crowd that have to jump through so many hoops.

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Maybe the new install was half arsed and only installs the Vista PLUS play online viewer. Basically if you have XP they might not support the XP play online if it get's updated. This is bad news and shows very little respect for customers. It all comes down to cutting corners and saving money by shifting the responsibility to the backs of the customer.

It's not like XP has a 5% market share yet. At most people will upgrade to Windows 7, Windows 8 please GO away!

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

In contrast, XP is acceptable for the ARR beta.

http://entry.ffxiv.com/beta/detail_na.html

The more I think about it, the weirder this announcement gets.

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Just more evidence that FFXI is dying or being killed off by bean counters. They keep cutting there won't be anything left. The next thing they might do is offer paid support. You have a problem $10 at the start of the call and $1 each additional minute your on the phone.

This sounds like it might become a reality at the rate things are going.

XP is obviously the most compatible FFXI OS to date. If there are OS issues they'll either be caused by a client update or bad drivers related to NEW hardware. If the system works now it shouldn't break from a FFXI update. If t does break then it's SE or the player installing new drivers not XP. If SE does this breaking clients then decides to hide behind the "we don't support that OS" it just bad busyness.

The whole a realm reborn thing makes me chuckle with glee. If that's being bata tested then the whole issue with FFXI not supporting XP seems to sway along the lines of cutting corners to save money. Supporting XP in a newer project shows it has money to back it at launch. If that supporting an OS takes that much resources then just imagine what else is being gimped/cut to save money behind the scenes.

You all might not have realized it but PS2 support has surely ended by now in the USA. It ended way back in 2010 when cut scenes broke. They never officially announced it but if something isn't fixed after two years it's fairly clear they didn't give a hoot enough to support it.

I think I found a reason:

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/env...tml?pageID=win

I suspect XP support got dropped because S-E is tired of dealing with ATI driver issues in XP.

Just to put some numbers on things, I tried both the old XI benchmark program and the new ARR benchmark, on both Windows 7 64-bit and XP 32-bit. I've got a Radeon HD 4670, and used Catalyst 10.11 in Win7 and 9.4 in XP (as per the link in my prior post). I ran the benchmarks in their default settings ("Low" for XI, "Medium" for ARR), and ran each benchmark 3 times.

Windows 7 scores:
XI--5949, 5856, 5823
ARR--3090, 3044, 3066

Windows XP scores:
XI--8546, 8495, 8496
ARR--4266, 4258, 4223

I think I'll stick with XP, support be damned.

Those benchmark scores for FF11 are consistent with the performance drop I experienced when migrating from XP to Win7. Before seeing those scores, I estimated the performance drop to be around 30%. With settings that previously let me get 30 fps in most areas, I would after the OS upgrade only get 20ish fps, which meant I had to reduce the graphical quality to get the framerates I wanted.

It is a shame, for sure.

Of course, this thread is in reality a bit of a joke from my side. Being realistic, I do not really expect what I asked for to actually happen, although it would greatly please me if I ended up being wrong.

With the release of Seekers of Adoulin, we will be fully providing support for Windows 8 systems. This is also the reason that support for Windows XP is ending, as the new expansion will not be supported under it. There has not been any game client updates announced as of yet but more information will be released as we approach the release of the new expansion.

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Originally Posted by SE_Chris

With the release of Seekers of Adoulin, we will be fully providing support for Windows 8 systems. This is also the reason that support for Windows XP is ending, as the new expansion will not be supported under it. There has not been any game client updates announced as of yet but more information will be released as we approach the release of the new expansion.

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Thanks for the reply, but I think we may need a little more clarification on this new policy concerning XP. Has there been any testing to see if there will be issues running SoA under XP SP3? This may actually be a bit of a roadblock for some. For example, I do not intend to purchase a new OS just to be able to continue playing one game if I get the expansion.

FFXI is the only game I play on PC anymore (might do FFXIV, not sure), and it is GROSSLY overpowered for FFXI (played the FFXIV beta with no issues as well)....so no, not really in the market for a new PC, nor a new OS on my current one. I don't browse the web on it (well, I do pay bills with it, the only time I go to any websites with it). The PC is for FFXI, CD/DVD/BluRay creation, Photo Editing/Printing, and managing my finances--I don't browse on it to keep it clean. I do all my trashy browsing, youtube, downloads, etc. on the trashable laptop--I can move files between them via an assortment of methods. Nothing important is kept on the laptop, so if it gets buggered with a virus, I just wipe it. I am considering a new laptop in the next year, which will come with Win7/8 on it....but I'm not a fan of gaming on a laptop....mainly because I don't see the point in spending an absurd amount for a gaming class laptop that MIGHT match the power of my PC. And let's face it, the touchpads on those things are not the best for some games (another reason I prefer gaming on an actual PC or a console--better controls).

Back to the point....there seems to be some mixed messaging out there. For example, at Amazon, the full version lists XP as a minimum requirement, while other sites (Gamestop, SE) are listing Win7 as a minimum requirement. You guys seem to be hinting that it might run OK in XP, but if it doesn't....<shrug>, not supported anymore.

It should also be noted that in all places I've looked, the specs list DX 8.1 or higher as a requirement....which predates even Vista as the minimum intall level of DirectX. That is an XP specific level of DirectX support (actually, I think it goes back to 98SE IIRC). Past XP, anything PRE-DirectX 10 is thunked and run via an emulation layer of sorts, and not run natively in the newer DirectX API's (not in the normal sense of "native support", but as a legacy protocol). From Vista forward, all legacy DirectX runs through DX9 DLL's (d3dx9_xx.dll, to be specific)--d3dx8.dll was not even installed by default on Vista boxes, leading to lots of support issues upon it's release. Basically, if DX8.1 is indeed still the minimum level requirement for the graphics/sound API's, then XP SHOULD be viable, yet it sounds more and more like it will be a risk to run it with SOA.

So, has there been any reasonable testing on an up to date XP box (SP3, IE8, .Net up through v4, plus critical updates and such) with properly supported Vid/sound hardware/drivers to verify there are no expected problems, or are you guys giving XP the cold shoulder because you have in fact found issues with SOA in the XP environment? If those issues were specific to newer hardware/drivers (ie, anything newer then the currently listed supported hardware)---could we perhaps have such a distinction made so we can make a more informed decision about it?

So...this mean the plug is going to be pulled on all XP players once Seekers is out? it mean that anyone who is still on XP is screwed and wont be able to play with the new expansion until they get a new OS?

And from lurking here I see so many posts about ppl having issues with the game on Windows 8 that are un answered. Yes XP is going obsolete, but its not going to be until next year.

And why is XIV's alpha testing min specs XP but not a 10+ year old game's new expansion? something funny is going on...

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Originally Posted by SE_Chris

With the release of Seekers of Adoulin, we will be fully providing support for Windows 8 systems. This is also the reason that support for Windows XP is ending, as the new expansion will not be supported under it. There has not been any game client updates announced as of yet but more information will be released as we approach the release of the new expansion.

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SERIOUSLY you got to be kidding that the new expansion won't support it! I hope you just mean you won't take calls not the new expansion won't install at all. Also, Windows XP SP3 hasn't had Microsoft drop support yet.

I paid for the software before this so, if that's the case it's classic deceptive switch. I run on XP because the systems were setup to run ONLY to run FFXI. So, The new expansion is only being added to windows 7+ even though the client was designed for XP and you plan on breaking XP compatibility and or making the expansion not run it?

If you announced something was being sold pre-order with customers having a compatible OS then make an after sale announcement that breaks that compatibility you've tricked the customer into making a pre-purchase.

Time to be sending out several refunds because the sales announcements failed to mention the game expansion wasn't compatible with all current setups. It's a bad deceptive move on the part of SE to sell a product without mentioning they was making it incompatible with current systems and their OS after the pre-orders where already sold.

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Originally Posted by Tohihroyu

So...this mean the plug is going to be pulled on all XP players once Seekers is out? it mean that anyone who is still on XP is screwed and wont be able to play with the new expansion until they get a new OS?

And from lurking here I see so many posts about ppl having issues with the game on Windows 8 that are un answered. Yes XP is going obsolete, but its not going to be until next year.

And why is XIV's alpha testing min specs XP but not a 10+ year old game's new expansion? something funny is going on...

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Obviously, I'm getting the impression the game is being made incompatible through modifications to the new areas. Not only that but the windows 7 will machines will need reinstalled and another 100+ $$ in time and money. It's on the backs of XP players to update not so we're talking several hundreds of dollors. Even then it will be a massive under taking to rebuild and setup everything.

The below info predates my FFXI install. It also predates the Windows 8 launch date so the "As of Feb. 15 2011" web info must have been altered recently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_8

PlayOnline & FINAL FANTASY XI for Windows® System requirements (as of Feb. 15, 2011)

Operating System: Windows® Vista / 7 / 8
CPU: Intel® Pentium®III 800Mhz or faster processor
Memory: 128 MB RAM
Graphics Card: NVIDIA® GeForce™ series with 32 MB or ATI® RADEON™ 9000 series
Sound Card: DirectX®8.1 compatible sound card
Hard Drive Space: 9.5 GB free hard disk space
Other: Keyboard, mouse, DirectX8.1 (included with install disc),
CD-ROM drive (used only when installing)

They need to look at what they're doing because this seriously is some bad management if they continue to throw away customers. After reading the specs I think they just have a bean counter looking at a map and deciding lets just say this is the minimum. Can Windows Vista/7 even run on 128 MB of ram pentium III?

Windows 8 SUCKS bad, at the rate things are headed down hill for FFXI I don't think the Windows 8 support will be worth the effort. It's also noted that they'll still be supporting PS2 in Japan. I guess the Amarcian technology isn't good enough.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

I hope you just mean you won't take calls not the new expansion won't install at all.

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Translation from corporate-speak: "Maybe it will, and maybe it won't. It probably will, but it's officially Not Our Problem."

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Also, Windows XP SP3 hasn't had Microsoft drop support yet.

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For a limited definition of "support." Try finding IE9+ for XP.

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I paid for the software before this

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And it worked before this. The game is over ten years old. At what point is it OK to drop a particular OS? Why aren't you screaming bloody murder about support for Windows 98?

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I run on XP because the systems were setup to run ONLY to run FFXI.

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It was set up to run on a PlayStation 2 and ported to Windows 98; XP was less than two weeks old when the PC version hit the streets. Does the system you play on even have published drivers for Windows 98?

Why do you think the game comes with DirectX 8 installation media?

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you plan on breaking XP compatibility and or making the expansion not run it?

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No, they plan on not testing updates on XP before pushing them, just as they no longer test updates on 98 before pushing them. "Not Our Problem" means exactly that, no more and no less.

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If you announced something was being sold pre-order with customers having a compatible OS then make an after sale announcement that breaks that compatibility you've tricked the customer into making a pre-purchase.

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S-E never claimed Seekers of Adoulin would run on XP. The published minimum specs in their own store and on Amazon clearly state "Windows Vista, 7, 8."

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Time to be sending out several refunds

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Because they failed to abide by terms you just made up, rather than the terms you neglected to read at the point of sale?

Seriously, where was your internet raeg over the lack of an NA version of the PS2 release? You'd have more of a leg to stand on there.

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S-E never claimed Seekers of Adoulin would run on XP. The published minimum specs in their own store and on Amazon clearly state "Windows Vista, 7, 8."

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Actually, there is a discrepency on the Amazon site, at the link I provided in my previous post:

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System Requirements
Minimum Specifications:
OS: Win XP
Processor: Pentium III 800Mhz or faster processor
RAM: 128 MB RAM
Hard Drive: 12 GB
Video Card: GeForce series with 32 MB or RADEON 9000 series
Additional Info: Unknown

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Should also note that I think they only recently updated the requirements at POL, basically coinciding with the announcement to drop XP support. If I remember correctly, it was originally posted at the SoA site that it would run on XP as well.

I guess I and the rest of the XP players are SoL on SoA.

Its almost like they are trying to force everyone to just go on XIV and let FFXI die, but thats been said for years now.

Edit: Can someone from SE please answer this clearly! are you pulling the plug on all XP players once Seekers comes out? even denying XP users from downloading the expansion too? if you really are why is XIV compatable?

You seen what people have posted here, how XP has run much better and how much problems 8 is causing (problems that are *still* un answered/un solved!) if its true its 100% not playable on XP you might loose a decent chunk of subscribers...but that wont matter if they just mosey on over to XIV, right?:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Translation from corporate-speak: "Maybe it will, and maybe it won't. It probably will, but it's officially Not Our Problem."

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Why are you even replying to me about this? It seems you're displaced. Are you defending these actions or just attempting to upset me? I seem to have read you saying that windows XP ran better then 7, followed by something about Windows 7 being damned.

I don't think you understand what's really happening. It's not what you think it's about bean counters and cut backs. FFXI isn't what it used to be it is better in some ways but it's superficial in comparison to resources invested in the past.

I don't think you realize how many mistakes have already been made. These compound the reasoning behind the announcement. Do you realize how hard it is to even start a new account these days much less get any useful support at all? If everyone was to upgrade to a new OS etc. do you think they'd assist everyone in these upgrades? The answer is hell no, it's not their problem to keep customers. You see, they've already blindly abandon some customers when they made that announcement.

The American offices are probably running on life support as we speak. The terms I pointed out show a lack of respect on both ends simply because the reasoning behind them aren't promoting good will towards the customers. It might be a mistranslation but it comes down to reckless abandonment.

Saying and doing are two separate things However, if the reasons behind doing things can cause harm to both busyness and customer relationship they're not doing their best. The PS2 is still being supported in Japan because it's favored. If it's not clear already they seem listen to the Japanese more then Americans. Do you seriously think cutting corners and abandoning existing customers is going to increase the value of this game world?

I sincerely think this expansion is a faux to lore in people for a quick buck. It's not like the clients are going to have resources invested to bring it up to 2015 standards. This is what FULLY supporting windows 8 truly means. If this game is that old and they aren't expanding the new user base then whats the point?

My point is this game is running off legacy players that have invested a lot of time in their accounts. Throwing away a single customer even for petty a issue isn't wise management. With the existing completion in the MMO market it''ll cost a lot to recover the losses through promotion and/or new development. Just look at FFXIV that game flopped so bad they had to completely pull it! This was a result of mistakes and bad production choices even with all the promotional publicity.

I can assume the English PS2 software hasn't been tested fully for a long time even though the game still claim to support it. This is probably deeply rooted to an agreement with Sony long ago that would cause legal implications if they was to officially announce dropping PS2 support with original expansions. I assume the clause here was to limit the expansion in some areas to non-sony consoles and no longer invest in any real PS2 testing or development. The OS wouldn't have this legality so they could obviously be more open about how they would abandon it.

Most players simply can't grasp whats truly going on here. This is how stock animals get led to the slaughter house blindly following their supposed masters. The only difference here is there are animals blindly paying money in this case while the herd follows the Shepperd. Sorry, the smart people aren't sheep and shouldn't be treated as such because they have negative foresight. It should be the other way around. Trimming the fat should be done without making the food taste bad.

I doubt if anyone really cares if the game world ended tomorrow. Does it really matter anyway I guess not. After all the game survived the Japanese earthquake and was taken down for I think two weeks. I guess as long as people feel good about how things might not affect them they're content with moving on.

It's just anti-productive to throw away good things if things can be done to work around them.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

Should also note that I think they only recently updated the requirements at POL, basically coinciding with the announcement to drop XP support. If I remember correctly, it was originally posted at the SoA site that it would run on XP as well.

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So, you see the reason behind my statement about offering refunds to some customers?

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Originally Posted by Sarick

So, you see the reason behind my statement about offering refunds to some customers?

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err... sure... I guess... I don't recall ever commenting on that point with you. That post was specifically to Ziyyigo, where it was stated that they never claimed SoA would run on XP, and the published specs call for a post-XP OS.

I figured most everyone already understood SE's stance on refunds, so didn't see much point in discussing that. No harm in asking for it I guess, just don't be shocked if/when they decline.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Why are you even replying to me about this? It seems you're displaced. Are you defending these actions or just attempting to upset me? I seem to have read you saying that windows XP ran better then 7, followed by something about Windows 7 being damned.

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And yet somehow I managed not to go into full Internet Lawyer Mode. Maybe it's because I'm confident enough in my ability to support XP on my own.

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I don't think you understand what's really happening.

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Yay, conspiracy theory time!

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If everyone was to upgrade to a new OS etc. do you think they'd assist everyone in these upgrades? The answer is hell no, it's not their problem to keep customers. You see, they've already blindly abandon some customers when they made that announcement.

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So S-E is now the White Yellow Zilart Devil because they won't buy you a new Windows license?

XP is in the "security patches only" phase of support. Microsoft doesn't sell it any more. You can't buy a new system with XP pre-installed any more, either. Hell, it's tough to find even hardware accessories currently for sale with XP drivers available. The world has moved on. S-E can't be expected to offer more support than even Microsoft itself is giving.

You know what's really evil? They don't support WINE! ZOMG paying customers arglebargle!

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The PS2 is still being supported in Japan because it's favored.

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The PS2 is still being supported in Japan because profit > cost. The ease of pushing out an expansion in the game's native code combined with the broader JP PS2 user base = ¥¥¥

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Do you seriously think cutting corners and abandoning existing customers is going to increase the value of this game world?

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10 IF costOfSupport > incomeFromCustomer THEN answer = TRUE

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a faux to lore in people

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whatisthisidonteven

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It's not like the clients are going to have resources invested to bring it up to 2015 standards.

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Utilize the synergies! Six Sigmas!

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This is what FULLY supporting windows 8 truly means.

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20 IF gameBehavior = asPerManual THEN support = TRUE

Seriously, by those standards not only is Microsoft itself barely "fully supporting" Windows 8, but S-E never "fully supported" Vista or 7, since the POL launcher for Media Center never got ported over from XP.

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If this game is that old and they aren't expanding the new user base then whats the point?

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Just because your money-printing machine is spitting out $5's instead of $100's doesn't mean it's worthless.

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Throwing away a single customer even for petty a issue isn't wise management.

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30 GOTO 10

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I can assume the English PS2 software hasn't been tested fully for a long time even though the game still claim to support it.

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Who cares? The only possible issues the NA PS2 version would have that the JP PS2 version wouldn't are text formatting issues.

Meanwhile, Windows 6.x is a completely different operating system from Windows 5.x, which broke backwards compatibility so much that Microsoft shoehorned an entirely virtualized XP install into Windows 7 Pro.

Meanwhile, good luck finding DOS drivers for your sound card. ZOMG paying customers arglebargle!

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This is probably deeply rooted to an agreement with Sony long ago that would cause legal implications if they was to officially announce dropping PS2 support with original expansions.

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Or maybe it's because letting the NA PS2 players persist in a pre-Adoulin existence literally costs S-E nothing. All the heavy lifting was done to support JP PS2, and everybody connects to the same servers. Hell, it'd probably cost money to find a way for the servers to discriminate against only NA PS2 login attempts.

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Most players simply can't grasp whats truly going on here.

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And most lone voices in the wilderness are just crazy people shouting at trees.

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Sorry, the smart people aren't sheep and shouldn't be treated as such because they have negative foresight.

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Put the Ayn Rand book down.

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It's just anti-productive to throw away good things if things can be done to work around them.

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Work costs money.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Yay, conspiracy theory time!

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You still don't get it. every time people get comfortable with things another bomb gets dropped as a result of bad management choices. You seem to be under the impression that this game is free to begin with. You've been supporting a stance that even though people are paying for services the acceptable amount of return investment should keep declining.

The cut backs are like a person cannibalizing themselves for food. Cut here cut there remove something else to survive another day, eventually there will be nothing left to eat. Last I checked the public FF opinions aren't very positive these days. There are logical reasons for this when the public isn't happy. People aren't happy, cost reduction and denial clearly isn't a surviving solution.

Seriously, it isn't the customers fault when they're thrown a bone after ordering from an expensive restaurant. What are people paying for? Stop defending the "lack of resources" because they've chosen to reinvest elsewhere. FFXI is clearly making a profit or they wouldn't have tried making FFXIV or kept adding expansions. It's not like the lord of the rings movies that lost money and continued to get sequels. Here people are paying a premium subscription every month. Losing them forever is never a good management investment especially if they can't get them back.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

So S-E is now the White Yellow Zilart Devil because they won't buy you a new Windows license?

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Do you think this is the first and last time things like this have been done? Do you forget so easily? Can you even acknowledge that things like these severely hurt the confidence of the valued customers? Bad choices keep happening time and time again. There is always someone to stand up and blindly defend them for the sake of damage control. You do realize this isn't the first time right?

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

XP is in the "security patches only" phase of support. Microsoft doesn't sell it any more. You can't buy a new system with XP pre-installed any more, either. Hell, it's tough to find even hardware accessories currently for sale with XP drivers available. The world has moved on. S-E can't be expected to offer more support than even Microsoft itself is giving.

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You seem to have forget a few things here or fail to recognize the differences between the OS and the subscription service. With the OS you pay once and they support the product through it's lifetime. In a subscription the client support keeps getting funded as long as the customers keep paying for services. By dropping support they're still making the same money but no longer fully supporting the customer.

The OS should be able to run without updates on the same hardware regardless of how old it is unless technical advancements are made to make it incompatible. If it isn't broken don't fix it because it doesn't need to be fixed. The only thing that would break an OS is "newer" software can't be added to it or external developments migrate away from it such as Internet.

Microsoft hasn't officially ended support yet so a wise developer could continue to support development of software for that operating system until it's official end of life. Instead SE falsely announced that Microsoft ended XP support completely so they was following suit. It might have been a mistranslation but still it was said. In truth it was probably done to cut support cost and have a higher profit margin after the fact. It really has nothing to do with the OS being obsolete IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

You know what's really evil? They don't support WINE! ZOMG paying customers arglebargle!

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FFXI was designed to run on XP, it runs best on XP, this is why people installed it on XP. Suddenly they make this announcement and throw everyone using it into the cold. You think I'm typing this message from an XP based system? No it's a windows 7 laptop that I personally upgraded after wiping everything on it first. I know the whole process and the investment required to push a new patch. Look at it from a a corporate standpoint, when big companies switch over to another OS it's a nightmare in the IP department.

They might have made a slight miscalculation when they made this choice. I think they're forgetting that some customers might quit or the added load of players installing INTO into a new OS calling in. Yes this will also cost resources. I doubt this service will be very effective no matter what they do support or don't support.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

The PS2 is still being supported in Japan because profit > cost. The ease of pushing out an expansion in the game's native code combined with the broader JP PS2 user base = ¥¥¥

10 IF costOfSupport > incomeFromCustomer THEN answer = TRUE

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It's more like.

IF CostOfSupport < RandomiseIncomeFromCustomer THEN answer = TRUE

Are you sure they're losing money or just trying to save money by cutting corners? Remember we're working with bean counters who crunch numbers not people who actually seem to care about what makes the the clients happy to promote positive growth. No matter what happens the agenda is the same. Always try to push customers in a direction they might not want to go to get a big short term profit.

Look at it this way if you keep people happy they keep coming back and in turn supporting you making more money. If you upset them to save money in the long run it might come back and bite you in the arse when they leave making you even less money then you saved in the cuts.

When the customers began to realize the bean counters would rather cannibalize things then reinvest in making people happy or content they start leaving for greener pastures. Making people happy is a good investment if it's profitable. It allows for positive growth. Making people unhappy has the opposite effect. As things get worse people leave, you cut more, more people leave, cycle continues until catastrophic collapse.

Do you understand that constantly making excuses for the lack of resources won't result in more available resources when they keep cutting services etc? I have my doubts about how they could improve things if the budget keeps taking hits.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Seriously, by those standards not only is Microsoft itself barely "fully supporting" Windows 8, but S-E never "fully supported" Vista or 7, since the POL launcher for Media Center never got ported over from XP.

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I think I explained the differences here in the first paragraph. Microsoft themselves claimed it was the customers choice how they run their systems. Yet when bata testers found a simple regedit hack method to revert metro interface back to the original start menu style they intentionally programmed a way to DISABLE it.

Now to get the old feel customers who buy windows 8 need to install unsupported 3rd party applications just to have that environment. This shoves the unwanted metro interface down the mouths of the customers despite them hating it. By doing so it's effectively holding back the reason for people to migrate out of want instead of need. People should want to upgrade because of advancements not be forced to because of corporate greed or brute force.

This is a prime example of what I've been trying to say. Despite the customers wishes they choose to push forward without allowing people remain content. In the long run brute force doesn't always work eventually something bad happens. Will they break XP?. Will it cost the customers who use XP? Will it cost them subscribers? Will it matter to them if they start losing money because it?

All these could be answered with YES/NO depending on future choices. You see based on the way bean counters usually work if they start losing money they cut funding instead of fixing the problems. It creates a downward spiral that eventually leads to a collapse. In this case the management is obviously cannibalized some of its funding into another failed project.

Like it or not you seem to think that cutting cost will lead to a more productive environment. I think you're wrong because if they continue canalizing of the funding it won't lead to a better game like you think. You're just accepting less but still paying the same fees.

Only a gullible person thinks the cuts will result in investments elsewhere in FFXI at this point. Based on experience of the past few years of FFXI development do you see there is only one way things are really headed? Did the failure of FFXIV, the decrease in game population, decrease in system support, decrease in compatibility the decrease in development staff, or support standards even get acknowledged?

I'm being pessimistic because of the real experience I've had with this games management. I don't know why your being an optimist. Most people know they've been cutting funding for a long time to reduce overhead. It's very obvious where things are headed. Simple solution, if things are going downhill they need to up their game and make this game awesome so people have a reason for staying. This way people invest more into FFXI. To put it bluntly support cuts are a bad sign of things to come no matter how they explain them.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Just because your money-printing machine is spitting out $5's instead of $100's doesn't mean it's worthless.

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So if an XP system is functioning fine and spitting out $100's it should be upgraded anyway to spit out $5's because $100 is hard to break when you make a purchase. It shouldn't matter to them if people continue using XP as long as it keeps customers happy.

By making this announcement they've officially thrown some paying players a bone with no meat. Most players can obliviously afford several FFXI subscriptions but at what cost should they re-invest subscribing if things continue in this direction? You aren't thinking long term.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Who cares? The only possible issues the NA PS2 version would have that the JP PS2 version wouldn't are text formatting issues.

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Some players upgraded from PS2 thinking that this game would have continued client support as long we kept paying for it. After making that first adjustment to PC it wasn't enough for them to cut PS2 because just after doing that they decided to throw a second punch while our backs where turned.

As for the PS2, they've unofficially dropped full support completely for all PS2's. The evidence is there when critical issues still exist and have existed over a year. When customers contact support they get a run around about the CS black screens of death. Usually it's about firewalls and ports.

In reality it's because they didn't fix the things updates broke and the reply is a ruse to shift responsibility. They just haven't officially announced this but, a rocket scientist isn't needed to figure this out. PS2 compatibly was still announced in Japan to save face for the loses of subscriber base. As for the English versions they didn't want to invest in translation, production and testing I can see why but they wasn't supporting it to begin with if stuff is still broken from 2010.

I'm sure Sony wouldn't be happy if clients reported the original software failed to pass quality test on the PS2 and the NEW expansion didn't fix these issues.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Meanwhile, good luck finding DOS drivers for your sound card. ZOMG paying customers arglebargle!

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Who says my systems aren't fully windows 7 compatible? XP isn't defunct it's one of the best OS updates since DOS. It' still a workhorse. Windows 7 is more advanced and seems acceptable but isn't as fast performance wise as XP for this purpose. Why would should it need updated if it works? Is it because sheep should blindly follow trends even if it backs them into corners.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Or maybe it's because letting the NA PS2 players persist in a pre-Adoulin existence literally costs S-E nothing. All the heavy lifting was done to support JP PS2, and everybody connects to the same servers. Hell, it'd probably cost money to find a way for the servers to discriminate against only NA PS2 login attempts.

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No it would cost them money they'd have to either invest in a huge amount of PS2 downloads over the internet or create an expansion disk. XP support isn't the same. It's mostly giving confidence that SE has their backs and will fix things if they break them. Instead of giving support they've dropped it because it's something they'd rather ignore then support. It'll cut back on calls to the support center when 1000's of people flood them in march from the expansion.

They can detect clients despite the developer saying otherwise every time the system client connects for a patch its version is detected. When it attempts to update it calls the server and comperes the version with that systems set. It then downloads the right update table specifically for that client. This data is obviously logged somewhere dispute the DEVs statements that they don't know what clients are being used.

As for detection It's the GM's who can't detect the client behind the server. When a client initially connects it passively gives away that info when it updates by automatically downloading it's update patches. Seriously, why would a PS2 actively download a PC or XBOX patch. It doesn't take 1+1 = 2 for the server to realize hey, this is X client because only X client would download it's compatible update.

I don't know if this is logged or not but it's a simple passive way to record what clients are being run on connection. If the server transferred this info to the character account logs it would be an easy way to surmise the clients install base.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Put the Ayn Rand book down.

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I'm just pointing out that you shouldn't get comfortable with things because you could be next in line for a surprise intervention yourself. I could be preaching to the sky because you seem oblivious that nothing going on.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Work costs money.

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Subscriptions cost money to pay for work that feeds people who work for money or added development. This game isn't free. This is the cycle of business if one is cut or starts losing money because of bad choices then another suffers. You can't always cannibalize things and think they will always come out better without losing the full scope of the investment.

I saw this on another Forum. Hope it might answer a few things for players. :

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For those that say, OMG, am I going to be able to play Seekers on a xp comp; I saw that xp wasn't on it Day 1 when I preordered, called Square Support over Skype and asked. YES, it'll install and run.

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If this is inaccurate will a support rep step up and explain fact or fake? If you don't answer you'll keep the confused user base confused. We need official conformation with an actual support response.

Doing this is a huge investment if you own multiple systems.:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16832116983
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16832116984
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16832116716

I know i'm repeating myself but:

FFXI...a 10+ year old game's new expansion is not compatible with XP, and says officially they will give support for the OS that has the most problems with said game.

FFXIV a new (well its technically a few years old) HQ, HD game IS compatible with XP.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-30_E15ANDQ...FullOfFuck.jpg

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Originally Posted by Tohihroyu

I know i'm repeating myself but:

FFXI...a 10+ year old game's new expansion is not compatible with XP, and says officially they will give support for the OS that has the most problems with said game.

FFXIV a new (well its technically a few years old) HQ, HD game IS compatible with XP.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-30_E15ANDQ...FullOfFuck.jpg

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Logic is not logical, as you can see there was no response to my post. They already decided to not respond before the 26th when they can't answer it.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

I saw this on another Forum. Hope it might answer a few things for players. :



If this is inaccurate will a support rep step up and explain fact or fake? If you don't answer you'll keep the confused user base confused. We need official conformation with an actual support response.

Doing this is a huge investment if you own multiple systems.:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16832116983
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16832116984
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16832116716

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I was the one who actually did that: I didn't record the call but I was very honest about what he told me at the time, so it's not fake. If people want, I'll redo the call later today and look into recording it..tho no promises on that. I got a funeral to go to (my mom died) and I'm not sure if I'll be home in time.

Since at best and if all goes well, I got 2 more months before I can get the $$ to get the parts for a new pc, I'm hoping that support rep wasn't lyin'. Rather not buy Windows 7 for a pc I'm planning on replacing, it just takes me for bloody ever to scrounge up the money.

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Originally Posted by Elizara

I was the one who actually did that: I didn't record the call but I was very honest about what he told me at the time, so it's not fake. If people want, I'll redo the call later today and look into recording it..tho no promises on that.

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It's all good thank you for making that post! Anyway, I'm sure XP users will find out soon enough if it really installs. No disrespect, I'm not calling you a liar. It's just that SE has been known to give out conflicting information in the past depending on what staff is contacted.

I'm also sorry to hear about your mother it's always very tragic. If it's any consolation my dad died when I was only 13 in a horrible tragic truck crash where a locomotive engine he had hooked up completely crashed the cab he was in. He ran an out of control truck into a brick covered mountainside instead of rolling it.

It wasn't his fault the brakes failed on that long hill but, if he choose a different path to save his life and roll the load away from the cab a school bus full of students on the way to school waiting at the intersection below would've died. I know all to well the distress of a close parents death can be so take some time away from FFXI to heal.

So please! I can't stress this enough don't worry yourself about recording a silly conversation especially, since the expansion is nearly already out and you've experienced a traumatic loss of a parent. IMHO, You need to heal a bit before dealing with this game and it's state. I don't think anyone would want you to invest this time for FFXI over a real life family who desperately needs your love and emotional support.

The XP announcement was a shock but the loss of a close relative should always take a front seat. Anyone who thinks otherwise shouldn't be playing this MMO. I realize I don't know you but, please accept my sincere acknowledgment of your personal loss. God speed in you/your families emotional recovery.

Sarick, (Sorry mods for the off topic) thank you. It's been rough for what's left of my family and I haven't been playing as much lately b/c I needed to be with my brothers and sister (Heck, have been missing Legion lately; the leads of my shell have been very understanding and I..just haven't been able to deal with that event right now) but I even did a little cry/hug session in game for my friends and me. I mean, what bites a friend, bites you too.

It just went so fast, she died of chemo complications; was a horrible way to go :(

And here's to hoping that rep was right. I don't wanna wait 2 months to play Seekers. ^^

To me, it seems rather silly to even think that they would downright 'block' WinXP users from playing the expansion/game altogether. I'd probably be willing to bet on that this is not the case (if I had some money fer it). So I'd say: relax, yo!

As was mentioned by others, I'd also imagine that it simply means they can free some time and money off for some more important things (yeah, I said it). No, I'm not saying Win8 is one (/stagger). I've used (Gentoo) Linux myself for soon 2 and a half years, and have no intention to go back to the Windows camp, even if it means I wont get official support with OS-specific problems (which are quite rare, believe it or not, and if such things happen to arise, they are rather quickly solved by either me, or others doing the same thing).

So even if you were to be 'cut off', there's definitely no need to buy a new OS just for FFXI (or FFXIV, et al). <wink>

Here's the disclaimer for when I am wrong, and they will actually cut the XP-user off: these are just my opinions and guesstimates, and I acknowledge that there is such a possibility.

But really... eyyy!

Ok, I wake up and Amazon just said it's available for d/l. It's almost done..Let's see if it installs guys.

[Edit] IT DID. We XP users are fine.
Finished install
Yes, I'm running XP!

Now I just have to figure out where to put the key. :D

[Edit again] Found it, hope I can get it updated before I have to put out yet another fire that Mom's death left. So prolly not going to fully log on.

[Third edit] I had to check this b/c it's yelling but everyone's proly getting a dialog that is saying "No Seekers" when it is installed. According to what I read on alla, this will be normal until the big update goes down that will make it available.

thanks for being the proverbial guinnea pig!

Now....to wait for all the post-launch/update bugfixes.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

thanks for being the proverbial guinnea pig!

Now....to wait for all the post-launch/update bugfixes.

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I second this quote. liked your post Elizara. My sincere thanks with the same words as the above quote in this post.