WHM is a overall not in bad shape, but even so, we still have some problems. These problems fall into three categories, which I will outline below, and then follow with suggested improvements.
1. Status prevention is useless
With numerous Barstatusra spells, Barelementra spells that improve status resist rates, Divine Caress, and an upcomingtwo hourone hour ability that's supposed to prevent status anomalies, this is clearly supposed to be a major area of competence for WHM. However, between unpreventable status auras becoming commonplace, the fact that Barstatus spells don't seem to do anything, and many status anomalies don't have element and/or status spells that would prevent them even if you know they are coming, many WHMs don't even bother. Suggestions:
2. Status removal is lagging behind severely
- Add a status potency down effect to Barstatus spell effects--Poison status deals less damage per tick, Doom counts start out higher, stat downs are lessened, etc. With this in place, even if the status lands it will at least be noticeable that the spell is doing something. Even if auras are unpreventable they should be able to have their potency mitigated with the proper precautions.
- Give WHM more elemental Barspells, Bardarkra at the least. Many annoying statuses and effects such as Sleep, Curse, and Dispelga are dark based, but without a Barspell for darkness it's not reasonably possible to get enough dark resistance for it to make a difference.
- Give WHM more (functional!) Barstatus spells, Bardispelra at the least. Remember that one of the factors behind Embrava dependence is that it is the only performance buff that can't be dispelled.
Mob TP moves these days are all AoE, and most have at least one status effect each. Heck, even many normal attacks are AoE with a status. Many incurable status effects are in common use, including versions of old ailments that have become inexplicably resistant to common treatment. And then, there's the aura problem (again!), which pointlessly chews up "cure one ailment only" spells like Erase. Ever try to Erase a simple Slow in a Bio aura, only to have Erase get rid of Bio three times in a row--only to have it come back on the next tick?3. Afflatus: Misery sucks
- Instead of having aura statuses be removable but coming right back, make aura statuses not eligible for removal, period. When an effect such as Erase is randomly choosing what status on the target to remove, exclude aura statuses completely. I.e. if a target has Slow, and Bio from an aura, Slow should always be chosen to be erased no matter what. If the only eligible statuses to remove are aura statuses, it should give an appropriate message, so the player won't waste their time trying to remove auras. Much like how we now no longer need to try casting an enfeeble again when we see a "completely resists" message.
- Either add Erase II and Esuna II that remove more statuses at a time, or scale the number of statuses removed to Healing magic skill.
And we all know it. Improvements?
- Just make Afflatus: Misery boost Curas/Banishes based on the highest damage taken, not the last damage taken already, FOR GOD'S SAKE. It's such a vital fix, yet also so simple. How long must we wait?
- For a supposedly melee-oriented stance, Afflatus: Misery does nothing to mitigate casting load (like Composure does). Enhancement spells cast while Afflatus: Misery is in effect should have an extended duration. The duration on Auspice in particular is just amazingly bad.
WHM's current problems, and how to solve them
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01-17-2013, 07:56 PMHashmalumWHM's current problems, and how to solve them
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01-17-2013, 11:00 PMSarick
It'd be a good idea to make most of the AOE buffs not self only cast. The problems with I see with auspice, protectra, shellra and barspellgas etc. are that they need the whm to rush into harms way to cast them. Curaga and a few others center around the target why can't buffs?
If a lot of these spells weren't self only then it'd be easier to stand back as a mage instead of inside the AOE areas. WHM isn't a bard singing. :P -
01-18-2013, 01:25 AMCaketime
Misery definitely needs something to make it more worth using. Or maybe it's just that Solace is so good it makes Misery look like garbage by comparison? Cureskin is pretty tough to beat.
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01-18-2013, 09:06 PMEconomizerQuote:
Originally Posted by Hashmalum
Preventing status ailments in the first place is always preferable, but for some reason this generally gets deemed as very powerful even in cases where the White Mage can remove the effect quite easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hashmalum
Making Barstatus spells work to reduce potency on enfeebles seems particularly sensible if preventing them outright is out of the question. I think this could be a very good "middle way" that SE could hand out if they don't want to improve the likelihood of resistance with these spells.
For existing barspells, perhaps they could work somewhat as follows (suggestions have no regards to implementation difficulty, just rough ideas):
- Barpoisonra could work as stated, or alternatively have a chance each round to prevent damage over time effects on the player from procing. Effects would be more potent with more skill.
- Barvira would work similarly to Barpoisonra's new effects, allowing /heal to proc with tics occasionally for Diseased players, but more importantly players with Plague will find the effects dampened. Effects would be more potent with skill.
- Barsleepra would have a decent chance at reducing hypersleep effects to regular sleep, and perhaps make it so that actions on the player that normally wouldn't wake them up would have a chance at waking the player, such as using Erase, Paralyna and other debuff removal spells. Effects would be more potent with more skill.
- Barsilencera would have a chance at making it so that removal effects could remove Mute, much like Cursna has a chance at removing Doom. It could also make Silence effects allow players to try to cast spells, but stop them most of the time while resetting the recast time, allowing players to try to cast spells, albeit with a high rate of failure. Effects would be more potent with more skill.
- Barpetra could make Break effects have a chance of wearing off when taking damage or getting cured, relative to the amount of damage taking/cured and the user's skill.
- Barparalyzra could lower the proc rate of Paralyze by an amount relative to skill.
- Barblindra could lower the accuracy down effect of Blind by an amount relative to skill.
- Baramnesra is particularly difficult to come up with an idea with since the effect isn't removable by White Mages. It could either keep its current effect of lowering the time the debuff is on the player, or make it possible for Erase to have a slight chance of removal.
Here are a few ideas for new barstatus spells considering the idea that barstatus spells don't necessarily prevent, but instead help the player cope with the spell.
- Barcursera to work on lessening the HP/MP down effects of Curse, increase the starting count of Doom, and make curing a player with ST20/Curse (Recovery)/Zombie occasionally heal the player instead of doing nothing. All effects should be proportional to skill of the caster.
- Barcharmra which could have effects similar to the Lavalier/Lavalier +1's effects, preferably the Gravity effect on Charm, with perhaps an added bonus of waking the player up if they become uncharmed. Alternatively, this could make it so the player becomes uncharmed if they are successfully slept. All effects should be proportional to skill of the caster.
- Bardeathra which would work by downgrading Death effects used on the target to Doom. The countdown would be based on the skill of the user, with higher skill give players slightly more time to remove Doom.
All of these should have RDM self-target counterparts naturally.
Additionally, Divine Caress, while very nice, heavily relies on carrying a pair of mitts that are essentially inventory -1 unless you are for some reason relying on the enmity down stat on them.
The effect of Divine Caress also doesn't really seem to last long enough on anything but mobs that spam the same ability again and again, and if they spam it so much, you don't really have time to use Divine Caress even when you can use it.
One thought is that Divine Caress + Barstatus spell could give the Divine Caress prevention effect for the debuff that the Barstatus spell could block, at least on the lower level versions of debuffs.
Also, Sacrifice and Esuna don't work with Divine Veil effects. This is probably because Esuna is already AoE, and AoE Sacrifice would bog the White Mage down with everyone's debuffs in some situations. But perhaps they could function specially with it, such as having Sacrifice just remove the debuffs instead of transfer them, and Esuna not require any debuffs to remove them. This would mean that when you use Divine Seal then the spell, they'd have the buffed effect, as well as under the effects of Yagrush and occasionally the Orison Cap.
There are really only two more barelement spells White Mage can get, but yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hashmalum
White Mage needs Barlightra/Bardarkra. While we're at it, Red Mage needs Barlight/Bardark. Ideally they should be sub usable for maximum utility for other classes.
Not to nitpick too heavily, but Light Arts and Dark Arts can't be dispelled either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hashmalum
While I'm more partial to other solutions, a sort of dispel lightning rod spell that has multiple charges like Blink or Aquaveil do might be a workable solution, but it could also be hard to implement.
As the above suggestion I gave to make Sacrifice and Esuna work with Divine Veil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hashmalum
Additionally, scaling Erase's removal effects based on skill would be nice. It could remove at least one, but remove an extra debuff with every 50~100 skill after 300 skill or some other formula. It wouldn't remove too much, but seeing spells scale with skill is almost always nice. - Barpoisonra could work as stated, or alternatively have a chance each round to prevent damage over time effects on the player from procing. Effects would be more potent with more skill.
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01-18-2013, 09:28 PMEconomizerTotal damage taken would be better in my opinion, but honestly anything would be better. Taking damage and sitting where you can be hit by debuffs is pretty risky behavior, and it should be rewarded if it is intentionally done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hashmalum
Auspice's duration (which should be increased) aside, I don't really think we should be copying Composure in that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hashmalum
Misery should do something that fits White Mage itself that somehow matches Solace so you're actually tempted to use it outside of Esuna. Misery shouldn't be "ungimp Esuna once every minute" it should be Solace's equal, at very least in situations where you want to be sitting in the fray.
I'm not even sure that adjusting the damage charge would be enough at this point.
Part of the problem here is that Banish IV (and if SE wants to spoil us, Banish V) haven't been given to WHM, making the Banish buff not as useful (especially since the damage caps pretty low). White Mage will need these spells for Misery to remain anywhere near competitive with Solace's Holy Laser.
Another issue is that Cura spells don't match up against Curaga spells in the MP efficiency department anymore (since the pants), since you can just cast a Curaga spell for less MP straight out the gate. To be more competitive with Curaga spells, perhaps the cast time (but not recast) on Cura spells should be reduced further; alternatively all AoE Cure spells could see a casting reduction under Misery.
A few more loose ends come up as well. We don't really have incredibly clear Auspice numbers, nor is there anyone who particularly wants to test it. There is no gear that buffs Misery, although there is gear that buffs Solace.
The hard thing here is that Misery sucks so bad that the thing I want to do is drastically buff it, but on the other hand we have to be realistic about what the ability is supposed to be (unless SE's idea was to intentionally have a bad job ability), and try to work with that first before proposing big changes.
Solace tends to be great at healing, but it also generally excels at dealing with taking damage since it not only buffs barspells for reducing magic damage, but also allows you to prime players with cureskin before they take a big hit. Misery needs its own niche moving forward, and we have to ask ourselves what that is.
Yeah, a pinch of Job Ability Haste or longer duration buffs would be really nice, but slight adjustments and natural progression that we're long overdue for is what should be tried first.
On that note, here is a change I think would be too likely to be abused, but I feel like posting here regardless because I put a lot of thought into it:
One benefit Misery could have could be some sort of ability like Occult Acumen that is tied to curing - the more HP you cure, the more TP you get. This would favor AoE curing, reward the player for not overcuring, and would contrast nicely with cureskin. Additionally it would allow the White Mage to keep casting between weapon skills with less penalty.
The risk is that Dagan (or Starlight if the White Mage has a Dukkha) might actually prove useful for once, and allow a White Mage to cure with no regards to MP without even hitting the mob. To counter this, I suggest that cures would give a small number such as 1 TP per 200 HP cured, which to abuse would require buffs on a multitude harder to get then a single well equipped Bard (equivalent to having effectively infinite MP).
I plan on posting another post or two here eventually outlining some more problems White Mage has, debuff prevention/removal and Misery aren't the only things that we could see fixed. -
01-18-2013, 09:31 PMMirage
Good stuff, Economizer. Plus one from me.
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01-19-2013, 12:03 AMStan64
The single biggest problems in my opinion is Blinking and Cure Freeze.
Blinking - People often have gear swaps while they do different attacks and abilities. Why would the cursor leave the person instead of hanging silently in midair while the game blinks them in and out? This actually makes me not Cure or remove statuses from people in time.
Cure Freeze - If you cure someone who is taking their weapons up or down they will bind on the spot until the animation is over. Will make you loose time in Nyzul Uncharted or Salvage II for example where time is crucial.
I know some people will say that blinking "can be fixed" with non-approved add-ons. But it still exists on both PS2 and Xbox 360 and bare clients.
I like to think that this isn't our game and we have to make the most with the rule sets we are given. Challenge the content. But blinking makes no sense. I would understand Cure Freeze if it occurred every time, now it's just to those rare occasions. -
01-19-2013, 01:11 AMMirage
Actually, most blinking issues are solved with stal, not 3rd party tools.
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01-19-2013, 03:40 AMStan64
You will still lose focus if you scroll through the players and someone swap their gear. And that's most likely to happen.
There should not be any blinking issues at all. There is nothing that makes it ok. It's just a nuisance in hectic end game.
"Oh, the Cerberus Seether brought everyone down to orange except that SAM guy because he had Berserk on and is on red, what a champ, I should heal him with a Cure IV!"
*press Cure IV-macro*
*scroll down once, loses focus because the other SAM is skillchaining with himself again...*
*press Cure IV-macro again*
*scroll down twice*
OH HE IS DEAD WHAT DID YOU BELIEVE?
It's just typical. =D -
01-19-2013, 04:01 AMCaketimeWorkarounds like this one are neat, but don't always help, as the above post points out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
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01-19-2013, 05:41 AMStan64
Stal works wonders, but you can't be picky with some macros and sometimes you need to choose from list. No Blinking = more freedom!
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01-20-2013, 04:58 PMEconomizer
White Mage is remarkably similar to Red Mage and Paladin in many ways, all three pretty much share all roles between each other in some fashion or another. The jobs have somewhat similar design and sometimes inspiration from the classical RPG sense, particularly White Mage and Paladin. They also share a lot of very similar problems, so I think that many of the less specific issues I come up with for White Mage will apply to either Red Mage or Paladin, if not both.
In fact, some of the requests I've already stated in this thread (Barspell related) would apply to Red Mage as well. The last major spell formula changes also buffed all three classes (Cure Formula Changes, and the Protect buff). It is slightly drawing off-topic, but I'd like players to remember that these three classes are very intertwined.
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Right now I'll cover White Mage's magic damage.
Admittedly, this is the role I tend to most ignore myself, and I'd guess most players tend to do the same. But having magic damage to fall back on has saved my butt a few times, including a very memorable Chains of Promanthia fight where I was the last party member standing with but one Holy spell to cast.
White Mage is not and will not ever be the most prolific magic damage source, but it is nice to have extra options. Of course, White Mage lacks natural Magic Attack Bonus sources, and the natural sub for parties, Scholar, does too.
We're missing tiers, and the base power on the tiers we have isn't even tier appropriate for the higher tiers, which means that even with the damage bonus against undead is subpar. Undead mobs tend to be immune to Dark Knight and Dancer job abilities in addition to Dark Magic, which limits how often we see them as high level content where Banish would actually be needed. Our cure spells themselves have poor damage against undead, even to the point where they're poorly tested (we literally only got proper numbers after inquiry related in the writing of this post, courtesy of Byrth testing the numbers), and we can't use AoE cure spells on undead mobs. Granted, we're White Mages, but we're White Mages! Wrecking undead mobs is part of the job description, and even on those we tend to do subpar damage.
To top it off, things that would improve a White Mage's magic damage tend to be somewhat lacking, nuking gear tends to be focused on INT based nukes, party based buffs for magic damage are fairly weak, mage food is a complete and utter joke, and Afflatus Misery's buff is based on the last hit making it incredibly hard to utilize.
Here are a few loose ideas for improvement in the field of magic damage for White Mage, although there is probably room for some more solid ideas then these:
- Currently the dev team is working on improving elemental magic damage, these changes should be strongly considered on a case by case basis for all sources of magic damage, particularly Banish spells and offensively cast Cure spells.
Especially in regards to the casting time of Banish spells (although the recast timers might be specially longer then that of their elemental counterparts), and the effects of stacking dMND for both Banish and offensively used Cure spells. - Since tier I elemental nukes will have cast speeds faster then Holy and Holy II, consider lowering the cast times on these spells.
- Banish spells need higher tiers. Tier IV is a must, although a tier V should be seriously considered with possible retroactive level adjustments. We should also get relevant AoE tiers to match.
Paladin should get relevant tiers as White Mage's maximum tier goes up. - While probably not technically feasible, Curaga spells should ideally be targetable on mobs.
This might be easier if Curaga spells could be cast on other parties, which could be considered as well. - Continue to look at party and food buffs to magic damage in general as extra ways to boost magic damage to be competitive with melee damage, and make sure these can apply to sources other then Elemental Magic only.
- Currently the dev team is working on improving elemental magic damage, these changes should be strongly considered on a case by case basis for all sources of magic damage, particularly Banish spells and offensively cast Cure spells.
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01-20-2013, 09:22 PMMirage
I totally agree. We should get banish V at least, and the damage when cast on undeads (and maybe demons too?) should nearly be up there with what blm can do on normal mobs with their equally tiered elemental nukes. Holy and Holy 2 does get boosted by afflatuses, but the damage is really terrible even with that, compared to the MP it uses. I think they should have a damage potential of about 80% of AM and AM2, up to maybe 100% with max afflatus bonuses. If the quick cast is an issue, extend the casting time to let it be more comparable with AM and AM2 instead.
Why is this not overpowered? Even with the same base damage ratings, BLM has access to a more nuking gear, has native MAB traits, can do their maximum damage from spells on a much greater variety of mobs (the only place where WHM would have a chance of getting close would be on undeads), and on top of that, they can rotate between different elements within the same tier when waiting for spell cooldowns to go away (although this isn't as relevant anymore when they implement the planned cast time changes).
In short, giving this to whm would not make them a go-to job for when you need magic damage. blm and sch would still outperform it in that department, so there's no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to get some nuking love. -
01-21-2013, 12:59 PMEconomizerPart of the issue with adjusting Holy/Holy II in such a way is that we have to remember that Paladin has the spell as well, and uses it right in the face of the mob. They also have Divine Emblem, which greatly boosts the power of the nuke, so just adjusting the base power on Holy/Holy II up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
Additionally, if Holy spells really have an issue with power, SE could always increase the recast time on the spells. As it stands though, I only feel that the spell itself should have a lower casting time to keep with its theme of being an incredibly fast casting spell, and depending on adjustments to Ancient Magic, perhaps better scaling with dMND, or an adjustment similar to what they plan with Ancient Magic spells. This second aspect can wait for those adjustments however.
Personally, I think that if you feel that Holy/Holy II need adjustment, the best way to work on this would be to do it through Afflatus Solace, which would also nicely keep the charged laser feel of the spell for both White Mage and Paladin.
There are two main ways to do this, which I think could both be used in some way.
- Increase the maximum cure charge and damage boost to Holy/Holy II.
Currently, according to BGwiki, base damage bonus caps out at 380, or 1300 HP cured. This is quite a small amount, and I think the maximum could be boosted to allow the White Mage to charge the damage longer for bigger damage spikes, to be more similar to Paladin's Divine Emblem.
One way this could be done is by having tiers that scale less favorably after the current cap, especially considering a single Cure VI can cap the current amount. The player should be able to get more damage out of repeated castings of Holy after reaching the current cap, but a bigger single nuke by holding it off for the pivotal moment if they have been curing the party for some time. This will make a tactical ability that has potential for large numbers that reflect Paladin's similar abilities. - Adjust the damage boost effect to be somehow dependent on Divine Magic skill.
Divine Emblem, the Paladin analog to Afflatus Solace's Holy Laser is hugely dependent on stacking Divine Magic skill. This has led a portion of the Divine Magic related nuking gear to favor Divine Magic skill over other stats.
Having Divine Magic skill influence damage from charged Afflatus Solace Holy spells could be another way to increase damage. One method could be in conjunction with damage boost tiers from using cures, in which a portion of Divine Magic is added to either the base damage or perhaps dMND for each tier reached.
Still, these would buff Afflatus Solace, which is still pretty powerful in regards to Afflatus Misery. Changes have to be done carefully considering this as well, lest we just remake the situation we have now between the two job abilities reoccur after adjusting them. But I think the proposed changes here would fit Solace, so I think it re-asserts the question about what role we want for Afflatus Misery. - Increase the maximum cure charge and damage boost to Holy/Holy II.
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01-22-2013, 09:46 PMCatmato
Since Solace is the default back-line stance, I think they should enhance Misery as a front-line stance. Give Misery some delay reduction or Fencer trait, or some much-needed accuracy or attack. Let's put those hammers to good use!
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01-23-2013, 03:57 AMAnnaliseNot entirely true, aside from the mentioned light/dark arts. If the monster casts Kaustra (e.g. Diabolos Mega Boss in Dynamis -Tavnazia) it will overwrite Embrava and the effect will be gone. While not technically 'dispelled', the buff is still removed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hashmalum
I believe back in the day, Holy used to be a lot stronger than it used to be. White mages spammed it a lot, and it got nerfed. I'd have to dig up the info to find it... but this may be long forgotten anyways. There used to be a LOT of weird stuff (e.g. charmed mobs on BST could uncharm if hit with a critical, paladins used to sub BST and charm beastmen in experience parties because it was far more hate than provoke, etc.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
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01-23-2013, 04:01 AMEconomizerI've been looking for discussion on what Misery is, so if you feel so inclined, feel free to elaborate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catmato
However, as things are in the game currently, I feel that Solace fits the role of front-line stance much better then Misery.
Misery has four major reasons to use it, Esuna, Auspice, Banish, Cura.
With the exception of Banish, all of these heavily favor situations in parties. The Esuna buff itself is quite nice, but unless Misery is useful for other things, all it feels like is a nerf to the spell that requires using Misery to ungimp it. Auspice gives an accuracy boost and a bit of enspell damage, but the spell itself has such a low duration, the enspell effect can eat into other additional effects from weapons and sambas, that it is very so much a pain to use. Banish is slow casting compared to Holy and the way the boost is charged up makes using it essentially impossible to effectively use. Cura suffers the same effect of having the boost mechanic being hard to use, all the while having Curaga spells be easier and effectively just as cheap to cast.
Solace has four main draws as well, Cureskin, Barspell MDB, Holy Laser, and the Sacrifice buff.
Cureskin gives the target a temporary extra health boost, which is great for being next to the mob, without the situational of using AoE cures. Increased MDB on barspells means you can prevent even more damage for the party, and if you have fast macro usage you can swap nearly full strength barspells on the fly without having to switch stances, which can be nearly effective as using Stun for magic damage heavy mobs. Holy casts much faster then Banish, and the charge effect plays much more nicely with being able to have an extra boost of magic damage whenever you need it. Sacrifice is probably the only ability that doesn't really fit too much with front-lining, but given all the rest of the abilities you'll have a much more solid job ability choice with Solace overall.
Delay reduction would just hurt TP build in high haste situations (further making Misery a useless JA) unless you mean job ability haste.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catmato
Fencer is useless in the majority of situations, because if you're going to melee with White Mage, the wise idea is generally to DW, since it is the only way to hit delay cap, you get the stats from the offhanded weapon helping you, shields generally have subpar stats, and the extra hit from DW weapon skills. So unless White Mage got some JA haste as well, Fencer would be rarely used, and if White Mage got JA Haste from Misery, you wouldn't need to add Fencer to make Misery useful. Additionally, that 5% extra crit rate is unlikely to make Hexa Strike better then Realmrazer again, and most of White Mage's TP moves go on tiers instead of linear progression with TP.
Misery is supposed to be giving White Mages accuracy already with Auspice, although I don't have solid enough numbers to argue if it is a sufficient boost, and I won't really say no to more attack.
I think a major part of the equation here is how far we're willing to go to buff Misery.
For example, with the current plans to deny Last Resort's planned Haste buff to 1h jobs, SE has essentially stated that they're not too hot on the idea of giving 1h jobs more sources of JA Haste. Perhaps White Mage would get an exception since Misery is exclusive to White Mage, but this seems unlikely, especially with the Haste arm race that would ensue from melee Red Mages, maybe melee Bards, and perhaps eventually melee Geomancers. Still, given say a 15% JA Haste boost from Misery, you'd see it solidly used for melee situations, and might even see situations where White Mage is better off not using Dual Wield even.
If we're happy with the implications of a particular buff to Misery however, and it fits our stated goals, we should push for it. -
01-25-2013, 05:41 PMTeranikuYou mean besides ungimping Esuna?Quote:
Originally Posted by Caketime
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01-25-2013, 09:53 PMCaketimeThere is so much wrong with that spell, I don't even use it if I can get away with it. It's like the devs thought of a good spell to give us, then they had a meeting to figure out how they could make it not worth using in most situations, shelving the spell right out of the box.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teraniku
How do you think it could be improved? I think centering the target around a player of the WHM's choice would be a start, and maybe granting a Caress-like resistance bonus against status effects removed with Misery active would help tremendously. Nothing like cycling your Solace and Misery to Sacrifice and Esuna a group only to have the boss re-apply enfeebles immediately. -
02-05-2013, 02:53 PMCatmato
First off, let me say that I am interested in a discussion, rather than an argument. Some things I say might sound hostile or sarcastic, but they aren't intended that way.
Also, since the word "casual" seems to have gained a negative connotation lately, I use the word "hobbyist" instead. I use it to refer to someone like myself who likes and promotes the ideas of MeleeWHM, but doesn't revolve their character around it.
You're saying Solace is the front-line stance, but then it seems like you go on to prove that Misery is more fit for it. All four of the spells benefited by Misery depend on being next to the mob. I see your rationale, but I still only see being on the frontline benefiting barspells, which I'll admit can be huge, especially with tactical Sacrosanctity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
Regardless, how we classify the stances is of no importance, so let's concern ourselves with how Misery could be adjusted.
I guess I suggested delay reduction because it would be more likely to get than JA haste. Typically when I'm swinging a club, I only have 40% haste, somewhat rarely any Dual Wield and/or Haste Samba. While my suggestion wouldn't help the diehard MeleeWHM or those in ideal situations, it would be a decent boost to a hobbyist MeleeWHM or those who may not have planned to break out the club.Quote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
My assumption, again, was made for the hobbyist MeleeWHMs who may not have Realmrazer or wouldn't be meleeing anything harder than an Abyssea NM. It wouldn't be a huge boost to Hexa Strike, but it would benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
I'll take any boost we can get, especially if it's a front-line boost. I love the fact that there are others who see a Misery boost the same way I do. Although, from my perspective, my suggestion would give me a moderate boost, but from your perspective is almost completely useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
Edit: I forgot to add that the upcoming adjustments to 1hand damage formulas could be a huge boost. I can't wait to see what's in store for it. -
02-05-2013, 04:39 PMEconomizerWhen I think of casual, I don't really imagine someone capable of really doing White Mage melee.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catmato
I think of someone who bought all their gear off the AH, maybe has a Rajas Ring because whatever, but didn't spend 1M+ on anything for melee, especially if it wasn't a weapon.
If you're lucky they're wearing NQ Blessed gear, wturban, and a Swift, or if they're really lucky, a Goading belt. They'll often have something terrible like a Robur Mace or worse, and more likely then not they won't be wearing Blessed. That's what most other meleeWHM look like to me.
I know not everyone will have a huge budget, I know I certainly don't. But I would hope anyone looking to get clerical make sure to hammer out some justice for the cause and leave some dents, not just leave dings.
From what they gave us, Solace is definitely geared more towards healing since it entirely rewards healing no matter where you stand. Misery was a little more misplaced out the gate, to put it lightly, it rewards you for standing close to a mob, to put it bluntly, it rewards you for getting hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catmato
So of course I'd define Misery as frontline based on that, but I'd go on to say that Solace rewards the player better in a frontline based environment most of the time.
Should this be the case? Well, that's not the rhetoric I was going for, but I'm not going to be forcing conclusions so hard when soliciting feedback.
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Originally Posted by Catmato
I'd rather place my dreams in the unlikely then the terrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catmato
Delay reduction doesn't stop in the rare case of you getting capped Haste. Since Misery is a stanced ability, the drawback is not using Solace, so there shouldn't be additional drawbacks.
Fencer isn't totally bad despite not being a replacement for DW. But why give TP bonus and critical hit rate under such strict conditions when you could just hand it out to White Mages under Misery in general?
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Again I ask myself and others to explain what Misery is all about. It certainly seems to be a JA that rewards the player for getting hit, or maybe standing in the action. What fits that? Is there something that could fit that to give us what we want? Or does it need a reword? I think it's a hard thing to answer very well. -
03-21-2013, 10:52 PMStan64
Since someone told me stal is the way to go to avoid blinking I tried it out, and now I used it for a while. Even though it's handy and you avoid blinking it raises a couple of other problems.
1. You can't see on your screen where your target is. There is no arrow above the player so if you need to find someone fast to cure him I hope you know exactly where he went. Is he on the other side of the boss and you need to go closer? Or is he back at the entrance and you are just wasting your time? Good luck and have fun.
2. You can target people who aren't really close. They can be anywhere in the zone and out of healing distance and you still can select them thinking that maybe you are just on cool down and try to cure a couple of times until the lagging battle log shows you that he isn't even close. You lost time and neglected someone else who maybe died in the process.
3. If you need to rotate parties or stand outside of party to heal all your macros are shit. Easily solved by having a identical macro set with <t>. But hey, really?
It still is better though, but without blinking there would be no problems at all. -
04-06-2013, 09:20 AMDekusuta
Can't have everything being asked as SE is unlikely to give us everything. If we get Banish buffed, our healing will definately suffer.
If you we Afflatus Misery Buffed, healing will also suffer. Misery IMHO is a good stance for the DD WHM to be on. The Auspice buff is useful.
I'd much rather we get spells/abilities that are complementary to our healing instead of more toys. Cautionary tale here is Red Mages. Once an indispensible job, it was hijacked by DD Red Mages asking for DD centric Job abilities. SE gave it to them to the detriment of their enfeebling. And now, Geomancer is getting all the new enfeebles.
I'm not sure if the -ra spells can be fixed so that the WHM doesn't have to rush it. SE seems to have decided it is part of our job description to do so, given the buff provided to Cura with Misery active.
But I absolutely agree that the Barstatus buffs needs to be revised so that the connection between having the spell active and resists/partial resists is more clear.
As a WHM, a big problem with our spells is DDs won't notice them half the time or what we're doing won't be obvious. -
04-06-2013, 10:08 AMDemon6324236You do realize that the only melee focused Job Ability we have ever gotten on RDM was Composure right? Besides that there is Temper but it came after RDM died out, where melee is a part of the job and we simply asked them to support it a bit more. As for meleeing on WHM, I personally thing WHM can melee fine right now, its not a better DD than most jobs, its one of the worst, but its the healer, fighting is a side activity, not a priority, so it shouldn't be expected to be amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekusuta
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04-06-2013, 11:46 AMDekusutaComposure, tier2 enspells, Temper. Imagine if Temper was instead a major enfeeble class of spells and caused a Terror effect, or amnesiased NMs. RDM would be significantly more relevant for end-game content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236
But yeah, this was 06/07 right around Aht Urghan and right before WotG, before Blus came into their own as the true melee mage, before Abyssea and before FFXI Forums was a thing and SE was still sort of sanctioning Allakhazam's forums plus a few others as semi-official places to get feedback.
There was definately a push by a hardcore of Red Mage players then for DD abilities. I pointed it out then it would be better to have enfeebling spells, but was karma bombed for it.
Glad RDM wasn't my main. I do still greatly enjoy the job tho, for its versatility.