Hello! I've got more time than I should today because parts for my project didn't come in, so I'm going to waste some time outlining how Mythic Weapons could be generally improved. This is similar to my Relic Weapon adjustments thread that was originally posted here at the 90 cap and was updated here for the 99 cap.
Please note that this is not the place to argue about whether obtaining 30,000 Alexandrite is or is not ridiculous.
Philosophy: I think that each of the three "special" weapons should have a place in the arsenal of a dedicated player, but that they should occupy different roles. I'm going to propose a few changes that make mythic weapons more useful in this sense, though I don't think there's any obligation to make them the "best" weapon for every job in every situation regardless of their price. I view Mythics as the Job Specific Weapon that is supposed to enhance the abilities of the job and whatever makes the jobs special, so I will attempt to use job-specific enhancements to push the weapons into useful niches.
Many Mythics were mediocre-to-bad on release. The trip to level 99 and aftermath upgrades have dramatically increased their viability, though they lost considerable ground in the most recent buff-locking patch, and I will assume the level 99 weapon is being used when I make adjustments though I'll take care to make them scale back to the 75 version. Mythics are also interesting in that their Weapon Skills are not unique to their weapons, so any WS adjustments will have to keep in mind the implications for other potential users.
Finally, there was no attempt made during the initial creation to compensate for each job's ability to maintain AM3, which is an essential part of using most Mythics. As a result, some Mythics look equally good on paper (Vajra vs. Terpsichore, for instance) but are terribly inferior in practice because the job cannot maintain AM3 as well as other jobs and is much less efficient with the weapon in practice. I will attempt to note this and compensate by improving the weapons' non-AM3 DPS so that the overall damage is approximately the same as comparable Mythics used by more apt jobs.
Information Pages/terms:
Index of Mythic Weapons
Mythic Aftermath Information
AM1 - Aftermath level 1
AM2 - Aftermath level 2
AM3 - Aftermath level 3
General suggestions for the weapons:
* Remove the offhand limitation from Mythic weapons - Currently Mythic weapons lose all special stats, the ability to generate Aftermath, weaponskill damage boost, etc. when they are offhanded. Terpsichore is the only 1H Mythic weapon that beats the other weapon options, but almost all of the 1H Mythics would be useful if they could be offhanded with their full stats. These weapons were designed to be versatile and help the job, and their Damage/Delay ratio is intentionally nerfed relative to Relics and Empyreans because it's assumed you will be maintaining AM3. This is ideal for an offhand and crappy for a main hand, so let us offhand them.
* Allow Empyrean Aftermath and Mythic Aftermath to stack - Currently activating Empyrean or Relic Aftermath will overwrite Mythic aftermath regardless of the level (tested using Yoichi and Kogarasumura). Allowing the weapons to be offhanded would be nigh pointless without this adjustment.
* Allow Aftermath Level 2 or 3 to overwrite themselves - This is a gameplay issue. Having to wait for Aftermath to go down to reapply does not make any difference to someone with perfect timing, but it adds unnecessary inefficiency and frustration to a game that we play for fun. The quality of gameplay for mythic users will improve if you fix this.
* Allow TP Bonus to affect Aftermath level/potency - Currently it does not, which doesn't make much sense.
Some Mythic-specific changes could still stand to be made. Mythics were designed to compliment the traits/abilities that define each job as a job-specific weapon. Unfortunately, few of them were used for these enhancements at level 75 due to balance issues, and even fewer are used for them at level 99. Thus, some weapon-specific changes could stand to be made.
Weapon Specific Changes:
Conqueror - At the moment, this weapon is a zerg tool, macro piece, and low-buff DD weapon for WAR. It serves a purpose primarily because WAR is so strong at the moment, but that means it doesn't really need adjustment. I would increase the first hit fTP of King's Justice and make the scaling more dramatic so that the activation WS for AM3 does more damage and the weaponskill is a more respectable option for Warriors without Ukonvasara or Upheaval.
100TP: 1.5
200TP: 2.0
300TP: 3.0
Glanzfaust - Glanzfaust's job-specific enhancements are excellent. Its utility problems are primarily caused by two things:
1) Aftermath level 3 only affects one hand on Monk, but this is even worse than it is for dual wield 1H jobs because both hands get the crappy mythic damage/delay on Monk. - To address this problem, I would increase Glanzfaust's non-AM3 DPS by decreasing its delay to 80. TP gain would be essentially unaffected, but DPS would increase.
2) Ascetic's Fury is only good when it multi-attacks and crits, which indicates that its fTP is too low to be competitive - To address this problem, I would increase Ascetic's Fury's fTP to 1.5 from its current value of 1. This would be an average increase of ~20% damage for the WS considering AM3, elemental gorget/belt, and the offhand. It will be a larger increase for players without the Mythic, which will likely make it better than Asuran Fists for players without Shijin Spiral or Verethragna. I would also increase the TP modifier growth to match Victory Smite.
Yagrush - This is one of the few mythics that has gotten worse since its level 75 debut. Initially, it was a stick you could offhand and make all your -na spells AoE, which was dead useful in the time of individual AoE Status spam and had interesting applications for tanking. At 99, monsters that use AoE statuses tend to use several AoE statuses and kill you all at the same time. WHM AF3+2 head shares the single largest enhancement of this item (occasionally) with anyone who spends some time in Abyssea - Attohwa. Divine Benison, Tranquil Heart, and several other factors have nerfed WHM's ability to generate hate. WHM AF3+2 pants and the myriad of Refresh sources available to us at 99 have greatly reduced the utility of Mystic Boon. Yagrush did not even receive a trait upgrade at level 99 like the other weapons, because further Divine Benison would exceed the cap.
So what role is there left for Yagrush? Will it forever be a -na macro stick? That certainly seems to be what SE has in mind for it. I would argue that the supporting role of this weapon should be widened and not restricted to -na spells. If Mjollnir is WHM's DD weapon, this should be their support weapon. As such, I'd recommend:
* Add 20% Cure Potency to this weapon that can exceeds the 50% cap.
* Add "Augments Divine Veil II" at level 99, which extends the AoE effects of Divine Veil to Haste and Regen. Erase is Enhancing Magic and works with this trait, so two more enhancing spells should be no problem.
Laevatienn - This weapon is currently barely viable as a nuking staff in situations where Aftermath can be maintained. After the elemental update, it should get slightly better. In order to increase the viability of maintaining AM3:
* Add "Enhances Occult Acumen" I~IV from level 80~99 that levels up from +1.5 TP per 100 MP to +6 TP per 100 MP. - At +6 TP/100MP, BLM could use Oneiros Rope and get 13 TP/100 MP total, which means they would only need to spend 2262 MP every 4.5 minutes to maintain Aftermath. That is finally a reasonable amount of MP.
* Give Vidohunir a long range like Cyclone and Mistral Axe so that the Black Mage doesn't have to get close to the monster in order to use it.
Murgleis - This weapon is worse for MAcc than a fully upgraded MAcc Magian staff until you consider the Sub slot, and even then it barely wins. Using Aftermath to increase MAcc in this case is kind of a Catch-22, because Red Mage has no responsible way to maintain aftermath in a situation where they need MAcc to enfeeble. There are two routes available for this weapon:
1) You could make it the primary MAcc/enfeebling weapon for Red Mage - This role currently doesn't have much of a use, but perhaps the weapon could justify it with a substantial boost. I would recommend adding a trait similar to the one on Estoqueur's Sayon +2 (RDM AF3+2 body) that directly enhances Enfeebling Magic potency and grows from level I~V (10~50%) between 75 and 99. I would also increase the Magic Accuracy to 35 so that it doesn't have to worry about competition from Magian Staves.
2) You could focus on the MP Recovery part of this weapon by giving it "Enhances Refresh Effect" I~V from 75 to 99. I think this is a terrible idea because Refresh is already so easy to come by, but some people would like this I am sure.
Vajra - Being able to offhand Vajra while still maintaining its effects would remove many of its problems, but two still remain:
1) Thief lacks any way to reliably maintain AM3. If you kill a monster and have to run to the next (like in Salvage v2), you lose AM3 and either kill a handful of monsters without it or kill a monster with a crappy DPS weapon and no WSs to build it back. That sucks. Being able to offhand Vajra would go a long way towards fixing this, in that the enhancement of SA and TA would be valuable and you could use Rudra's Storm or Mercy Stroke, but it does not completely fix it because Vajra is still a slow offhand with bad DPS. As such, I would reduce Vajra's Delay to 150 and reduce its base damage to 40, which will slightly increase its DPS with or without AM3. This change increases TP gain (for Mandau/Vajra by about 15%) because TP gain increases below 180 delay and will enable THF to maintain AM3 easier and build it back faster. It does lock Vajra into the sub slot, but at this point Vajra is arguably a worse mainhand than Aluh Jambiya, so nothing is really lost there.
2) Mandalic Stab is a weaponskill that has gone unaddressed for too long. Mandalic Stab is designed to be essentially Viper Bite v2.0. It boosts attack substantially, but has low fTP and a crappy modifier. It needs to be changed. I would propose increasing its modifier to 50% DEX and increasing its fTP scaling as follows:
100TP : 2.5 fTP
200TP : 3 fTP
300TP : 4 fTP
At the moment, the WS damage is atrocious. These boosts would increase its damage substantially and would likely make it the preferred SA option for Thieves without Rudra's Storm in most situations. Additionally, boosting the 300 TP fTP so much would make its AM3 activation WS respectable.
Burtgang - The problems with this weapon are so wrapped up in the problems with Paladin and Enmity in general that it's difficult to unentangle them and I don't really know how to adjust it properly because I don't know how Paladin is going to change. If I was making arbitrary changes to it:
* I would add "Enhances Shield Mastery I~IV" to make generating the first 300TP for AM3 a little easier
* I would change Atonement's formula to depend the Player level and difference between Player and Monster level, while still being modified by Enmity. For full enmity, (Player Level * 10)*(1+ (Monster Level - Player Level)/100)
Example: Level 75 player fighting a level 75 monster would do 750 damage. (75*10)*(1)
Example: Level 75 player fighting a level 100 monster would do 937 damage. (75*10)*(1+.25)
Example: Level 99 player fighting a level 120 monster would do 1197 damage. (99*10)*(1+.21)
Having a WS that does respectable damage available to all Paladins will remove the job's reliance on Almace. Also, scaling the WS up against higher level targets will make sure it is not abused against lower level targets and will retain the advantages of other Sword WSs.
* I would make Atonement unresistable damage.
These changes will not fix the Paladin job, but then will help it a little and will make Burtgang more viable overall in a fairly specific niche (tanking high level monsters).
Liberator - Liberator's problems aren't generally problems with Liberator, but they're problems with Liberator not being able to use Resolution. The two problems Liberator does have with itself are:
1) Dark Knight's only native way to get quick TP is through "Absorb-TP", which Liberator does not enhance despite enhancing all the other Absorb spells. - I would extend the "Augments Absorb Spells" growth to Absorb-TP (and Absorb-Acc, if it is unaffected).
2) Insurgency is terrible. 3.5 fTP and 20% STR / INT. Even with Damage+30%, that's still coming in something like 50% behind Entropy. The TP growth should be increased to:
100TP : 1.0 fTP
200TP : 1.5 fTP
300TP : 3.0 fTP
3) This is not a problem that the weapon currently has, but in order to push it into a unique niche I would give the weapon "Enhances Stalwart Soul" I~V, which would reduce self-damage from Souleater by 1% per level down to 0% by level 99. Apocalypse is an excellent low-man weapon that gives Haste and heals the user at the same time. There is plenty of room to make DRK slightly more durable with this weapon (or at least less afraid of using its own JAs) without encroaching on Apocalypse's territory. I think this would make people more excited about Liberator in high buff situations.
Aymur - Aymur is excellent for what it is used for and problems with it are actually mostly problems with the Attack/Defense related equations and problems with pet jobs/Beastmaster in general. If I was going to change things about it, I would probably:
* Change "Pet: Attack Bonus" to "Enhances Pet damage" and make it give the current Attack bonus along with 5~25% Pet Haste and 10~30 Pet Accuracy.
* Make it so "Enhances Sic and Ready effect" also gives the Master 50 or 100 TP depending on weapon level. This will be a source of instant TP that will help the Beastmaster maintain AM3.
* Make both sources of Pet TP Bonus work the same way. Currently Aymur has two different forms of this trait implemented and they work in different ways.
Carnwenhan - This weapon is useful at the moment, but people are unenthusiastic about it because they're unenthusiastic about Bard.
* I would increase the MAcc to 35 so that it doesn't have to worry about competition from Magian staves.
* I would add "Augments Songs" similar to BRD AF3+2, where it gives +5 Stat per song.
* I would boost "Increases Song Duration" I~V from 10~50% to 30~80%, so that it is possible to maintain Marcato/Troubadour/Nightingale songs and only sing once every 10 minutes.
* I would reduce delay by 10 for the sake of melee bards everywhere.
Gastraphetes - Like Paladin, the problems with this crossbow extend far beyond itself. Superficially, though, I would make two changes:
1) I'd change "Increases Barrage Accuracy I~V" and "Enhances Snapshot" to "Enhances Barrage" and "Enhances Snapshot I~V". For the most accurate job in the game, adding another shot to Barrage is more useful than any amount of extra accuracy that applies only to Barrage.
2) Trueflight is terrible. Increase its modifier to 50% AGI and make it fixed (low) Enmity like Namas Arrow and Coronach.
3) Increase Aftermath 1 and 2 to 180 seconds base (at level 75) and 270 at level 80~99. It takes Ranged jobs a long time to get TP, and though Ranger is better off than Corsair (due to Barrage), they still shouldn't have to waste a large portion of their damage maintaining Aftermath.
Kogarasumaru - Currently many consider this the strongest weapon in the game. However, that has more to do with Samurai's existing traits, the high viability of maintaining AM3, and Tachi: Shoha than anything about the weapon itself. As such, tweaking one little thing isn't going to break it.
* Add "Enhances Zanshin Effect" I~IV to the level 80~99 version, giving 5~20% Zanshin. Now I know what you're thinking "But what about Hasso-Zanshin DAs? That'd be broken!" Turns out it's not. OA2-3 and every other type of multi-attack procs before Hasso-Zanshin DAs, so your rate of these is miniscule with AM3 up. Increasing the rate of this by 5% (which is then decreased by ~70%) is only a ~1% increase in the rate of those DAs. That's negligable considering how strong the weapon is already. What adding this trait *does* do is increase the rate of Zanshin-based counters when using Seigan by 5%. It further plays into the "Enhances Third Eye effect" idea, but remains useful in times when Third Eye has fallen.
Nagi - Seriously? Enhances Mijin Gakure? Then to add insult to injury, you take the single useful part of that enhancement and make it universal a few years later. It would have been kinder to just go to every Ninja's house and personally stab their eyes out. Also, Blade: Kamu is like an Ascetic's Fury with worse mods, a lower attack boost, inability to crit, and it has less fTP. It's terrible.
Okay, now that I've gotten that out of my system I guess I can start. I understand from the stats on Nagi that it was supposed to be a tanking Katana for Ninja (one of the first, showing SE finally acknowledged it as a tanking job). I will attempt to make adjustments with that in mind:
* Similar to Vajra and for the same reasons, decrease Nagi's delay to 160 and base damage to 44. Additionally, the low delay will allow the user to hold hate better because at capped enmity the monster's attention defaults to whoever had the most recent attack round.
* Add "Augments Yonin" to the weapon. This enhancement would add 30 Accuracy, 10 Evasion, and 10% Critical Hit Rate while Yonin is active.
* Level Augment "Mijin Gakure" up to be auto-Arise instead of Auto-Reraise. So you Mijin Gakure once and die, get back up with 100% HP and have a Reraise icon on. When you die again, you get back up with Weakness (3 minutes) and another Reraise icon on (Reraise 3).
* Blade: Kamu needs a lot of help. Increase the fTP to 3.0 and give it enhanced Enmity (+50%, bypassing cap in the JA term).
Ryunohige - Another strong weapon that is well regarded by the community. Still, there are two minor changes to be made:
1) "Augments jump attacks I~V" forces two out of four jumps to critical hit and gives an attack boost to one out of four jumps. Expand the bonuses to all four jumps.
2) Drakesbane is a little cruel. You've given an Attack penalty to a WS that can only be used by a job with no native attack boosting JAs. I would step this down to a 5% attack penalty tops.
Nirvana - People like this weapon, but they mostly like it because there are no alternatives for Summoner. I want to avoid putting anything on this that is a buff the entire summoner job should receive, so I will go with:
* Change Magic Attack Bonus +40 to "Pet: Affinity +6". Now it serves the same purpose but is more effective.
Beyond that, Summoner would have to change as a job before I feel I could enhance a role it plays with this weapon in a way that makes sense.
Tizona - This weapon is overshadowed by Almace and Chant du Cygne. This would be less of an issue after the offhand changes, but it's still worth looking at Expiacion. Additionally, it is difficult for BLU to reliably maintain TP for AM3 and the enhancement on this weapon "Occasionally converts damage to MP" does not proc on the majority of a BLU's damage in the situations where they're useful. Adjustments:
* Change Expiacion's mods to 50% STR / 50% INT and increase its TP modifier growth to:
100TP: 2.5 fTP
200TP: 3.25 fTP
300TP: 5 fTP
* Allow "Occasionally converts damage to MP" to proc on WSs and Spells. Additionally, allow it to proc against Undead. You aren't draining MP from the monster; you're draining MP from your own damage.
These changes do not make getting and maintaining Aftermath viable, but they do make the sword useful in the offhand even without that.
Death Penalty - Much like Ranger and Paladin, the problems with this gun extend far beyond itself. I would make three initial changes, though:
1) I'd add "Increases Phantom Roll Effect Duration" I~V, which would be a 10~50% increase in Phantom Roll duration.
2) Leaden Salute is very bad. Increase its modifier to 50% AGI and give it a large MAcc boost.
3) Increase Aftermath 1 and 2 to 180 seconds base (at level 75) and 270 at level 80~99. It takes Ranged jobs a long time to get TP, so they still shouldn't have to waste a large portion of their damage maintaining Aftermath.
Kenkonken - This weapon is almost perfect for the job. If anything, it's almost too perfect because it is so strong that it makes it hard to adjust PUP. There are also several adjustments that need to be made to the entire job and shouldn't be packaged onto the mythic, like an increase in maneuver duration and an increase in Automaton durability.
* It has been suggested that we add "Augments Maneuvers" I~IV to this, giving +2 to +8 stat per maneuver. This is not a substantial DD buff, but it does enhance Kenkonken's pet focus.
Terpsichore - I am biased towards this weapon because I own it. Also, I have spent a some time thinking about the problems with the Dancer job in general and would like to avoid packaging large fixes to the job (like increased step potency) onto an obscure weapon that only a handful of Dancers will ever obtain. However, I think I can safely make some suggestions.
* "Enhances Step Accuracy I~V" is effectively worthless because we're very accurate already (Steps get an innate accuracy boost) and there's a 95% hit rate. I would recommend increasing the Hit Rate cap from 95% to 100% with this trait.
* Augments "Steps" does not increase from level 75 to 99. I would like to see it increase by one FM (so that Presto -> Step is 5 FMs instead of 4.) I can't think of exactly how I'd use the extra FMs, but it just seems like the single unique thing about the weapon should be enhanced between 75 and 99.
* Beyond that, to accompany the offhand changes I would propose reducing Terpsichore's damage/delay to 39/150 so that it can efficiently be used as an offhand. The weapon generates way more finishing moves than I can use because nothing from Flourishes III is worth the 2 second it costs me to activate. If I can mainhand Twashtar and offhand Terpsichore, suddenly Flourishes III is useful again.
Tupsimati - This is a tough one because it's so bad to start that I'm not even sure where to take it. To make it even worse, Scholar has a non-defined/non-existent current niche in the game (beyond Embrava). This is a competitive nuking Staff with AM1 active because Scholar starts out with a lot less Magic Attack Bonus than BLM. However, they have the same problems maintaining it that BLM does and there's no compelling reason to prefer them to a BLM at the moment.
* I would create a niche by increasing the -Enmity from the weapon to -25 and it to bypass the equipment cap and add with Savant's Gown +2 (AF3+2 body). This way Scholar could get -95 Enmity from Addendum nukes, making it the lowest Enmity direct Magic DD.
* I would add "Occasionally converts spell damage to TP" like Tizona's effect except for TP.
* Finally, I would make Omniscience a long-range WS, so that the Scholar does not have to run in to use it.
Two requests to any responders:
1) If you're going to debate a change I'm proposing, please back up what you're saying with math when possible. For instance, don't say "You can't change that weaponskill, it would be incredibly overpowered" without providing an average damage post-change compared to its nearest competitor.
2) Keep in mind that the goal is to make each weapon useful, without necessarily making it the best in every situation.
Mythic Adjustments - The Balancing Act! Part Deux
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01-16-2013, 11:49 AMByrthMythic Adjustments - The Balancing Act! Part Deux
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01-16-2013, 11:56 AMAsymptotic
I would alter Tupsimati by changng it:
Macc/Mab/enmty/whatever
Enhances "Storm" Spells - Storms give double weather effects and offer a native +12 stat bonus that stacks with Stormsurge.
"Irridescence"
Weather: Occasionally resets a stratagem charge when stratagems are consumed. (30% proc rate).*
On casting a spell matching the current weather. -
01-16-2013, 12:00 PMCair
I haven't read through the bulk of this post yet, but before I do, I'd really like to emphasize at least the following two points:
There is absolutely no reason the first should not be possible, and the second would be a very welcome improvement. Not being able to overwrite the high level aftermath significantly reduces the quality of mythic weapons in practice compared to what you would expect.Quote:
* Allow Aftermath Level 2 or 3 to overwrite themselves - This is a gameplay issue. Having to wait for Aftermath to go down to reapply does not make any difference to someone with perfect timing, but it adds unnecessary inefficiency and frustration to a game that we play for fun. The quality of gameplay for mythic users will improve if you fix this.
* Allow TP Bonus to affect Aftermath level/potency - Currently it does not, which doesn't make much sense.
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01-16-2013, 12:19 PMIronPandemonium^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Cair
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01-16-2013, 12:20 PMKidon
The bulk of these weapons need revisiting/buffing/re-thinking.
+1. -
01-16-2013, 12:41 PMSekundes
SE would benefit greatly by lending an ear to Byrth's suggestions. All of them are well thought, well balanced great ideas that should not be ignored.
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01-16-2013, 01:10 PMRorrick
I would argue that any Aftermath effect should affect both fists for Hand-to-hand. Lower the proc rate by 5-10% if you must, but it seems utterly asinine to me that Aftermath only procs on the main fist, given that both fists have the same damage and delay.
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01-16-2013, 03:52 PMKincard
Great post, Byrth! All of my +++'s to you.
Personally I would change Nagi thusly:
-Probably lower the delay to 210 in line with the other two REM Katanas
-Instead of Macc+30, it gives Ninjutsu Skill +30. This is a more universal stat that will enhance all ninjutsu at once.
-It's hard to say at this point what the Enmity+'s use is after any chances to the enmity system so I'm not sure if this should be kept or removed
-Ideas for other stats: Add Subtle Blow+25-30 that breaks subtle blow cap, add "Augments dual wield" that makes it so that Dual Wield does not affect TP gain or alternatively allows some amount of Dual Wield that breaks the 80% delay cap
-Augments Mijin Gakure: I'm honestly not sure how to improve this stat. Personally I'd just remove it, but if it has to be there, I guess for starters make it change Mijin's damage formula so it's based on MaxHP rather than CurrentHP.
Blade:Kamu:
Change to
Accuracy -20, 120s duration
50%STR 50%INT
Attack x 1.5
Damage varies with TP
100%: 3.00
200%: 3.50
300%: 4.00 -
01-16-2013, 05:15 PMEconomizer
Pretty spot on or close to spot on in most places (as usual).
I'd really only have comments to add, which I'll limit to Yagrush for now.
Very nice comments, I'll put more emphasis on the point that this thing shouldn't be a macro piece. As a club this weapon should be able to show off White Mage's melee abilities, even if it won't show the best possible damage a White Mage can do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrth
There should be no problem with 20% cap bypassing cure potency, especially since it would still take incredibly rare situations to get free (if you don't overcure) Cure III/IVs. Even if it had 20% cure potency that didn't bypass cure potency, I think it would still make this thing better then an Arka IV.
Additionally, the AoE effects could even be changed to all native Enhancing spells with no real negative effects, baring much needed adjustments to make Stoneskin, Blink, and Aquaveil to scale better with skill. Of course, an AoE Haste spell for everyone is long overdue regardless; dedicated mages deserve a break from pointless monotony like that that has no real standing on balance.
Since Haste should already have an AoE version already, Regen spells aren't really White Mage's thing anymore (Scholar took that), and any other spells it could be extended to should be buffed, I think a different direction could easily be taken instead.
Divine Benison effects could be changed to apply to Sacrifice and Esuna, and make Divine Veil work with Sacrifice and Esuna in a unique way. Under Divine Veil, Sacrifice would still not be made AoE, but would not afflict the White Mage with any statuses. Esuna would not require any statuses to remove status effects (although it would prioritize if there are ones on the White Mage). Now this would be a buff to White Mage, since you could get the effects on Sacrifice and Esuna merely by using Divine Seal every 10 minutes ago, but considering that Accession already mimics the current effects of Divine Seal with some slight drawbacks, buffing it in general wouldn't be too much of a bad thing. This would be a pretty nice boost to Yagrush's removal abilities.
As a final comment on White Mage Clubs, and fairly offtopic to boot, Mythic Boon on Yagrush is nice, but now every time I think about it, my thoughts are marred by the horrible mess that is Dagan, since that WS also sorta tries to recover MP. I don't even know what SE was really thinking with Dagan. It kinda has niche uses for soloing I guess, but seriously? The only real idea I've seen at fixing it aside from scrapping and starting over has been making the weapon skill party targetable or even AoE. Most posts people do on Empyrean weapons don't even mention Gambanteinn. -
01-16-2013, 05:26 PMSvens
I agree that Kenkonken is great, but with the usefulness of overload suppression being diminished by the addition af3+2 body and cooldown, I feel it only increases DPS without really improving any unique aspect about the job. It's a substantial increase, but I was always drawn to the weapon for its overload suppression. If I could try to adjust it to being a useful automaton tool again, I would like to see the following change:
-Increases maneuver duration I-V: The 1 minute maneuver duration is a terrible detriment to the job just as overload was back at 75 cap. Honestly, they should pull a nagi and introduce this on future gear/JAs, with kkk providing the most substantial boost. It was mentioned in the past that there was a balance issue if they did this, but I can't remember the specifics. -
01-16-2013, 05:50 PMAreayea
all pretty good, just gotta say somethin on the smn... Avatar MAB is awesome if you use the merit point abilities for actual damage.. i've tested it out and it does a lot more when you have the nirvana equipped then it does just with tp, and if you get avatar tp AND MAB it does WAYYY better damage
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01-16-2013, 08:24 PMMayoyamaI would just like to echo that while kenkonken is a nice dmg boost for pup.. its utility for reducing overload is almost useless now with all the burden reduction gear (af3+2 body, af1 hands, buffoon collar) and cooldown. Changing the overload to something like augments maneuvers (+stat corresponding to element of maneuver) or as svens suggested, increases maneuver duration (although the increase most likely wouldnt be that great)Quote:
Originally Posted by Svens
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01-16-2013, 11:49 PMByrth
Re: Kenkonken
I considered doing "Increases maneuver duration" on Kenkonken, but I thought that was a buff that should be applied to the entire job rather than just the weapon. "Augments Maneuvers" was another option, but that's just a further (pretty minor) damage boost to the weapon that gives the largest DD improvement in the game. I agree it would fit with the general theme of the weapon and wouldn't break anything because it would hardly be an improvement, though.
Re: Nirvana
Affinity +6 is going to increase Avatar damage a more than MAB+40 because Celestial Avatars start out with MAB. With about 70 MAB (40 from trait, 10 from merits, 20 from gear), Affinity +6 is worth about 60 MAB. Additionally, it is a separate category from "Avatar Blood Pact damage" and "Avatar: Magic Attack Bonus" equipment, so future sources of those stats won't indirectly make the Mythic worse.
Re: Nagi
I think that Nagi is given bad Damage/Delay because it is a mythic and can OA2-3, so directly increasing that would probably not be looked upon kindly by SE. Nagi 62/227 > Vajra 53/200 > Terpsichore 53/205, so Nagi is actually doing pretty well on DPS for a 1H Mythic. Decreasing base damage and delay as I recommended also increases TP gain considerably without affecting delay capped performance (and increases DPS with positive fSTR). As far as Blade: Kamu adjustments, I'd be fine with those too. I left Subtle Blow alone because that's kind of Kikoku's ball of wax (even if it does it poorly). Ninjutsu skill would increase San spell damage by 7% and would lower the proc threshold on Migawari (we assume). Magic Accuracy +30 affects the accuracy of WS additional effects (like Retsu, Rin, Kamu, etc.) I don't know which one Ninjas should prefer.
Re: Yagrush
My idea with Yagrush was the make it sort of like Carnwenhan for the front line white mage. Your Haste order only takes one spell so you can melee more. You can mitigate a large amount of Cure casting with Regen IV-ga. It works as an OA2-3 offhand for Mjollnir or a mainhand for people without Mjollnir. You could use it to get MP back with Mystic Boon so you don't have to stop meleeing, etc. Additionally, it has applications as a healing/status removal mainhand when you're on the back line.
I definitely do think the Esuna/Sacrifice changes would be cool though, and I'd see nothing wrong with ditching the Divine Benison traits in favor of doing a tiered "Augments Divine Veil I~V" that makes those changes/enhancing changes. I feel the Divine Benison stuff was stuck on there because SE had recently made the trait and was out of other ideas that they felt they could implement. -
01-17-2013, 12:25 AMAreayeatouche, I guess I see your point, i dumped half my merits in the ava mab and the other in attack, so I suppose that affinity would be better. However, you know SE if they overpower something they'll usually nerf right after, but now I see your point. <3 spurrina gages too btwQuote:
Originally Posted by Byrth
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01-17-2013, 01:06 AMConcerned4FFxikkk is overpoweredQuote:
Originally Posted by Svens
with kkk you wont be wearing af3 body, so it frees up that slot
I do a heck of alot more damage with stringing pummel than I ever do with acentic's fury... i have no mythic weapons, btw. Just go into abby with gn rr and ss atmas on, go butt naked, bust out 20 or so of each ws you'll see stringing pummel stands head and shoulder above most weapon skills.
Yea it's a small test but you dont need to put an apple and an orange into an atom smasher to identify the obvious. -
01-17-2013, 01:11 AMChimerawizard
I would personally rather Laevatienn get Affinity: Magic Damage +7 instead of MAB. (all elements + meteor)
I like the enhancement to TP which would AM2 far more accessible. and changing Vidohunir into a ranged WS would be icing on the cake.
Aymur needs a sic/ready recast- to it, or Charge-1 used when Aymur is equiped. That allows the BST to actually make use of his pet's TP.
for the pet, Pet: "Increases Damage" (base DMG+10-50 : attack +10-50% & accuracy +5-25%)
I really love the idea to give pet: potency+ to smn since it's not stating acc. or atk. that means it's BOTH, and spirits NEED accuracy.
Tupsimati: SCH can nuke the same as a BLM so give it similar buffs that blm gets but just change it up a little
Iridescence (replaced stat)
Affinity: magic dmg. +4 ("Magic Atk. Bonus"+40)
Force weather/day proc same as obi's do.
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I would like one thing added to all relic/mythic/empyrean weapons that have been taken to Afterglow status
lv.1 that is all.
reason: if you drag your buddies around getting the crap needed to actually afterglow any of them, you'll probably lose a bunch of your friends. that way, 1. you can still beat bcnm/enm's and 2. you can pick up a bunch of new 'friends' by level sync'ing and 1shot'ing everything in gusgen mines (or wherever). -
01-17-2013, 04:41 AMKincard
There was some request for this, so I decided to translate Byrth's post (Added a few points following the OP as well) over to the Japanese forums.
I usually don't beg for likes but this took me a while to do, so I think I deserve a cookie! Thanks. =P -
01-17-2013, 05:14 AMdetlef
I like the cut of your jib, Byrth.
Aftermath should be able to overwrite itself.
Speaking strictly about mythics relative to me, I agree that Carnwenhan should provide a slightly greater duration boost. Magic accuracy is less important because you wouldn't really need much macc for lullabies. A little extra sugar on top in the form of augments songs would be nice, but the most important thing to me would be a slightly enhanced duration boost.
With Ryunohige, is there really a reason why the Jump bonuses don't apply to all Jumps? C'mon now. Please reduce the attack penalty or give DRG more attack somehow. -
01-17-2013, 05:34 AMAreayeayes you do deserve a cookie, I'd give you a homemade one if you lived close to me ^^, anyway it's awesome you did that since as we all know SE has a tendency to listen to the jp players a little more than the NA players so maybe they might actually implement these suggestions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kincard
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01-17-2013, 06:52 AMSpankWustler
All of those changes are very well thought-out and would be awesome.
I really like the idea of Aymur adding a large amount of pet Haste. Assuming this Haste is separate from both equipment and Familiar, this would make the Haste from Familiar more useful and really motivate an Aymur-wielder to keep that buffed pet alive for a whole event. Not that I have any plans to make an Aymur or the Develpment Bros have any plans to make these changes, but I'd love feeling that my pet wasn't disposable for a reason like that.
Given that Summoner is Summoner and 45 seconds is a long time these days, some buff to physical Bloodpacts could probably be added to Nirvana as well without breaking FFXI and allowing Belphegor to roam this mortal plane at his demonic behest. Currently Nirvana only fills the magical damage niche, but I'm not sure what else could even count as the ultimate weapon for physical bloodpacts. Whatever new Relic/Mythic/etc. tier weapon is added with Seekers of Adoulin, maybe?
Sadly, given how resistant to change the Development Bros tend to be, I can't imagine their response to "allow Mythic Weapons to be fully functional in one's off-hand" to be anything other than consuming office supplies orally, starting a fire in the FFXIV team's bathroom, and finally writing whatever is Japanese for "make Byrth sad" on a mayonnaise-stained napkin that is eventually mailed to Okipuit. -
01-17-2013, 08:16 AMHashmalumStatus mitigation in general has been crippled in usefulness, yes. It's not just the fact that everything does AoE damage + multiple statuses, though, although that is a large part of the problem. It's also due to those damn aura effects becoming commonplace. The fact that you can't remove aura status for more than a couple seconds at a time is bad enough, but the fact that a status that will just bounce back can chew up your "only removes one effect at a time" spells is even worse. On top of that we are bombarded with more unremovable statuses than ever before--Weakness, Terror, Muddle, Encumbrance, Amnesia, and even run-of-the-mill statuses that have been made arbitrarily incurable like the Paralyze from Wings of Agony or the incurable Plague from one of Bhishani's TP moves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrth
Now obviously all this is a general problem for all WHMs, not just a few dozen Mythic owners. But with status removal being Yagrush's main augmenting focus, it's really taking it on the chin. Not only that, but a Yagrush WHM is expected to be in the middle of the auras and TP moves dishing out this crap, which a normal WHM isn't. It's completely untenable. Any changes to Yagrush need to take into account that the Yagrush WHM is going to be in the death zone. For a start, I'd suggest an enhancement to Yagrush that lets the wielder have both Afflatus: Solace and Afflatus: Misery (for the stronger Esuna) up at once, and have the Stoneskin effect from Solace apply to Curas. Also, since Esuna is already AoE and won't benefit from Yagrush's main trait, it should receive a further enhancement to number and/or type of statuses removed.
They could always make the final augment to Divine Benison make status removal full on Quick Magic/Chainspell speed, I guess. Seems excessive? Even Chainspell Erasega won't seem too strong when the mantis you are fighting decides to start spamming Macerating Bile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrth
Saying that SE has anything "in mind" for Mythic weapons at this point at all seems a mite too generous. I really don't think that they care.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrth
With status removal being near-vestigial these days, you're basically talking about giving Yagrush a completely different role here. Still I'd agree that making Haste AoE is a necessary reduction of pointless busywork for any WHM that is going to try to make any use of the weapon's Aftermath property. That was probably the rationale for the original 100% AoE -na enhancement on Yagrush, actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrth
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01-17-2013, 11:18 AMLouispv
The problem with Aymur isn't with Aymur. In fact most of these weapons the problem isn't the weapon. We wouldn't need any of your changes if SE was just smart. The problem has always been the WS's.
Primal rend does about 700 damage, unless you massively rework your entire set up, switch subs, get in the mage party, etc. Back at 75 when your alternative was a 900 damage rampage, this wasn't so bad. Now that the alternative is a 3000 damage Ruinator, it's terrible. All the WS's need to be redone to be comparable to the current WS's, and then no one will care if the weapon's stats are lacking, or if they need to maintain aftermath, and SE doesn't need to make massive amounts of massive changes to the weapons.
And SE needs to really be slapped when they propose any new elemental WS. What are you thinking? A WS that doesn't increase in damage as you level? That doesn't increase in damage with a better weapon? That doesn't increase in damage from food or buffs? No job should have an elemental WS if they don't natively get Magic Attack bonus traits, they're worthless otherwise.
Not that SE is going to do so. After Primal Rend, they came out with Cloudsplitter. While 1 CHR adds roughly 1.5 more damage to Primal Rend, each point of STR/MND adds One. Single. Damage. Point. to Cloudsplitter. And then both WS's deal half damage to anything with Magic Defense Bonus, Notorious Monsters, or anything with an elemental resistance. Meanwhile, 1 STR adds 5-10 damage to Ruinator, to each of 4-8 swings. And it increases in damage with a stronger weapon, and from the food, gear, and buffs that actually benefit dealing damage.
Reworking Mythic WS's to compete with whatever WS we're currently using would solve the problem, but god damn if the elemental ones don't need to be reworked into physical WS's at the very least. -
01-17-2013, 11:33 AMManaKing
I like the suggestions on BST and DRG. I would almost say the BST one is too good only because the amount of Pet: Haste has increased a fair amount over the last couple of years.
DRG is spot on, if you have to make a Mythic to be an awesome DRG, it really should be that good. The other way to cheat DRG is make it so that it ignores penalties to Piercing damage, but that would open up a different can of worms. That also doesn't have to be the focus of their Mythic, since they have 2 other weapons that sorely need improvement.
Funny how it is hard to find a way to make RDMs attractive by enhancing their non-existent JAs. A lot of what makes RDM is their spells instead of having JAs and JTs, so it's not surprising that their Mythic doesn't really do much for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrth
Adding more refresh to RDM would make this attractive to plenty of people. I'm very pro melee and I can easily see how adding between 1-5 MP per tick would change how I play the job. It would definitely be an enjoyable luxury.
You could Augment Spontaneity so that you get 2 Quick Magic spells instead of one. Essentially giving homage to Dual Cast.
Death Blossom's additional affect could be strengthened to give RDM some more utility for possible mage friendly updates that are being discussed.
You could Augment Enspells to be actually good. There are probably 5 different ways this could be done. All to varying degrees of effectiveness.
I have both an Almace and an Excalibur. I am really just looking for a decent excuse to start working on this. It really wouldn't hurt to have a Mage friendly weapon on RDM.....since it's a mage. Adding more M.Acc would be welcomed. You still have the ability to use AM3 so it's not like anyone should be upset owning one even if they are pro melee. -
01-17-2013, 09:50 PMMayoyamaJust like to point out that one would usually macro this in before using the maneuver to gain the effect if they werent also tping in it (unless using kkk ofc and then it is redundant lol).Quote:
Originally Posted by Concerned4FFxi
And the point is exactly that... the suppreses overloading/burden is no longer as desirable as it once was due to the gear now available.... No one is arguing that the dmg from the wep itself is weak.. just that the additional bonus for overloading should be changed -
01-17-2013, 10:42 PMSehaI understand where you're coming from, but even addressing it on the job itself, I still think maneuver duration would be highly desirable on this weapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrth
Or something that greatly increases puppet's output...but dunno how far you can push it before it becomes broken. -
01-18-2013, 04:42 AMdetlef
I see 3 responses to the JP post, any idea what they are saying? At the very least, the number of likes is encouraging.
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01-18-2013, 06:08 AMYinnyth
Carnwenhan: I pretty much stopped wanting this weapon when I heard a report that there is a +100% cap on song buff duration. Having +40% from instrument, +10% from legs, +10% from body, +10% from neck, and march, madrigal, minuet, and scherzo getting another 10% from AF3 song +1 bonus, we're already looking at 70-80% song duration. Carnwenhan is supposed to give a 50% boost to song duration, but it would only wind up giving me 20-30%. Probably even less in the future when duration boost gear is more common.
Sorta like how burtgang and aegis used to be slapped in the face by the 50% damage reduction caps, but were made to circumvent them, carnwenhan's duration boost should not be subject to any cap. -
01-18-2013, 06:19 AMdetlefThat's not true. So it's okay to want one again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yinnyth
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01-18-2013, 06:44 AMByrth
Yeah, I just went to the test server with G-horn 99, AF3 neck, AF3+2 body, and Carn. That's +5 Minuet and +70% duration for +120% duration total. We'd expect a 4:24 duration Minuet V (120*2.2), which is what I observed. I repeated the test with Troubadour and it was 8:48 duration Minuet V (120*2.2*2). If there's a cap on song duration, we haven't hit it yet.
Another 30% duration (Marduk's Shalwar +1 and the 20% I'm proposing on Carn) would extend the Troubadour'd duration to 10:00, so you could perfectly keep up a Marcato'd song and sing about every 10 minutes. A further 20% duration past that would be useful for players with Daurdable, because it would let you keep 4 songs up without them ever dropping, but that can be on gear in the future.
I do not speak Japanese, so these are guesses:
First post - Something about Ninja and the effect I tied to Mijin Gakure, I think. I think he wants strong Paralyze instead of Blind on Blade: Kamu.
Second post - Generally congratulatory. Google translate makes it sound like they are surprised a foreigner came up with something reasonable. Says they'd kill themselves for Yagrush as it is described.
Third post - Something about afterglow, perhaps that these enhancements should be tied to afterglow?
Thanks for translating the post, Kincard. I find reading these responses endlessly amusing. -
01-18-2013, 06:50 AMdetlef
It could be that they plan to add more song duration gear in the future. If they do, I hope they utilize the earring, ring, back, and waist slots.
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01-18-2013, 07:02 AMYinnythReally? Well, that's good news for me since I kept all my alex. Though bad news because I still have so far to go... either way, glad that was misinformation instead of truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
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01-18-2013, 09:34 AMSargent
Good suggestions Byrth, however...
I'd increase this to 'Avatar: "Blood Pact" damage +20~30%' for the level 99 version, or if that's too powerful, simply add 'Avatar: Enhances attack'. Where the aftermath on Nirvana is extremely nice, there are very little endgame situations where it is viable to gain the TP to maintain it (especially after the Embrava nerf).Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrth
Another idea would be to add '"Blood Pact" ability delay -15' to it, which bypasses the Blood Pact delay cap (allowing for a 30 second recast on Blood Pacts). -
01-18-2013, 10:54 PMAreayeathat sounds effin awesome >.>Quote:
Originally Posted by Sargent
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01-19-2013, 07:26 AMGaspee
Really great ideas here. Well done, Byrth.
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02-07-2013, 10:50 PMByrthI think this would be really cool and is nice because it would make the staff good for both Magic and Physical BPs. However, "Increases Avatar BP damage" is becoming more and more common these days, and SE is going to have to make it even more common if they want to give SMN a use without totally redesigning it. In that case the value of Nirvana would drop relatively. This could definitely be an option, though. I'll add it to the OP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sargent
Also, Nirvana's aftermath isn't actually very good for Avatars as far as I can tell. AM3 isn't, anyway. Predator Claws has an fTP of about 8 and extra hits are +1 fTP, so AM3 averages out to an 8% increase in Predator Claws damage on average. A high AM2 might be better depending what you're fighting, but being better than an 8% increase still doesn't make it worth the crap SMN has to go through to activate aftermath.
I'd like to see this change made to the entire job, which is why I didn't want to tie it to the Mythic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sargent