Currently, thieves are faced with a choice: use two strong daggers and contribute to damage output, or use the Thief's Knife and raise the chance of receiving treasure.
It would be fairly straightforward to add a short series of trials via Trial of the Magians to let them upgrade their Thief's Knife, so that their damage does not suffer needlessly.
- Using TotM means the weapon can keep the same name, so they can't be dual-wielded (and thieves with a Mandau/Twashtar/Vajra don't have to ignore it).
- Gives thieves a stronger job specific weapon that focuses on one of the values they bring, that would be straightforward to obtain.
- Would be simple to implement in terms of developer time.
- Could even allow for Treasure Hunter +2 at the end of the path, to give thieves an upgrade.
Thoughts?
Thief's Knife upgrades
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12-19-2012, 08:55 AMRooksThief's Knife upgrades
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12-19-2012, 09:12 AMDemon6324236
Or just make an additional trial to the elemental paths and have the trial to be to turn in some items like a TH knife itself, and it adds TH1 to that dagger. You like your STR+11 Attack+22 Dagger? Trial 9576 is trade 1 Thief's Knife and boom, now it has TH+1 on it!
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12-19-2012, 09:17 AMRooksWhile it would yield a significantly stronger weapon, the two issues with this are:Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236
- Probably more developer time/effort, and with an expansion on the horizon we should want minimal distractions.
- One of the big complaints thieves have is having to use a low damage knife for drops, instead of Mandau, etc. This would just mean they'd be asked to dual wield TH knives, making a relic/empyrean/mythic less valuable.
Not a bad suggestion, just probably not the direction we want.
(Also, what do you do with non-thieves that can use magian daggers? Give dancers access to lots of TH?) -
12-19-2012, 09:43 AMKylos
I very highly agree with this idea, and was about to post it myself.
Thief Knife should be upgraded. It is a very old dagger now, one that has full-timed itself in the off-hand for many years. I would much prefer that the Thief's Knife is upgraded, then bringing in any new form of dagger, because then players would simply dual wield both TH daggers.
Thief's Knife > Thief's Knife +1 > Thief's Knife +2 > Thief's Knife +3 > Level 99 Knife
It would be good to increase Treasure Hunter by doing this (At least by one more level), as well as giving a much better DPS, close to the damage of a STR Thokcha or Aluh Jambiya, but not as good as a Mandau or Twashtar.
Some ideas for what the level 99 Thief Knife could be called:-
-Robber's Knife
-Crooks Knife
-Pickpocket Knife
-Rogue's Knife (Like a new Artifact, it would not take anything away from Marauder's)
Not only this, but Thief needs a complete overhaul on how it is used in today's game, but I will post a different thread for that.
There is one problem with this. If the Thief's Knife is upgraded to another name (even as a +1), players would be able to get two TH daggers. There would need to be a restriction put in place to not allow dual wielding of Thief's knives.
The last idea I have for the Thief's Knife, is that the NM Sozu Ragberry, drops a level 99 Thief's Knife with higher stats. It would not need anymore Treasure Hunter, it would just need more damage, the delay is fine already. The NM would not need to be altered in any form. I don't see any issue with just changing the actual item and what the NM drops.
The Thief's Knife everyone already has would need to be upgraded automatically, so no one can have two separate TH Knives. -
12-19-2012, 10:59 AMDemon6324236Admittedly a valid flaw, dualwielding them would create quite the problem, unless they added a rare tag to the TH version of it, in which case you would be limited to 1 across all elements, a fair trade in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rooks
BRD would be more of a threat than DNC in TH numbers, DNC has no TH access atm without a sub, BRD does in the form of a Taru Sash, so they could potentially hit TH2 without sub, 4 with. DNC would be limited to 3 at most, and in either case this can all be avoided instantly if the trial adding TH is made a new weapon, following the idea of a rare tag, also make the weapon a unique weapon with it being THF only, and have a warning in game just like when upgrading weapons that move up in levels on the next form. That way only THF gets access, and only 1 can be had so that its not creating the dual wield problem, if nothing else it can even be a Thief's Knife too, just have 1 augment part be a +DMG like with alot of other low DMG based weapons and you will be good to go!Quote:
(Also, what do you do with non-thieves that can use magian daggers? Give dancers access to lots of TH?)
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12-19-2012, 02:44 PMKylos
Making an augment system like Abyssea Dominion Notes npcs, but with some other type of currency could work.
You could have a set chance of getting a certain amount of DMG+ and extra stats like STR, DEX, Attack, Accuracy, HP, and maybe even Treasure Hunter +1. The dagger could still be called Thief's Knife, but converted to Aug/Rare/Ex so you can't trade or sell these augmented weapons. -
12-19-2012, 03:16 PMMirage
I think you guys are making things more complicated that necessary.
Take the current Thief's Knife, slap a trial on it, keep the name so that you can't have several TH knives, increase damage and level. -
12-19-2012, 03:37 PMRooksYeah. It's low hanging fruit for the developers this way, which means it's more likely to actually happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
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12-19-2012, 06:09 PMArconThat's the only of the suggestion solutions that would actually help this extremely minor problem. I still couldn't care less, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
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12-19-2012, 07:13 PMMirage
Placebo Hunter +1.
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12-20-2012, 08:43 AMInsaniac
Ring with Latent Effect: Treasure Hunter +1. Latent effect active when Thief's Knife is not equipped. TH should not be tied to a weapon at all.
Problem #2 is the way TH proccing works. For the highest chance of a TH proc we have to... FULL TIME GEAR WITH TERRIBLE STATS!!!!! This should be changed before anything else. -
12-20-2012, 11:54 AMKysaiana
Easiest solution to the Thief Knife problem, in my opinion at least, would be similar to the delkfutt key change a few years ago. Trade knife to some ??? somewhere get a 4th tier of TH. Boom. No more crappy dagger. Only issue is they'd have to make it so you can't just get another Thief knife if you've got the KI or something. Easier solution is to just not use the stupid thing at all considering how useless TH+ seems to be.
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12-20-2012, 12:32 PMTrumpy
didnt read all of this but if you did:
Thief's Knife > Thief's Knife +1 > Thief's Knife +2 > Thief's Knife +3 > Level 99 Knife
you would have the same problem with dualweilding. you could potentially have a thf knife +3 and a thief knife +2 if you wanted. what you would have to do is retain the same name like empys and relics and such do so you could only have one. -
12-20-2012, 03:56 PMArconOh I forgot about that, even though we practically settled on it the last few times we had this discussion. Yes, that would work a lot better than the Magian suggestion. TH on a weapon is retarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Insaniac
Meh. Unless SE actually makes higher TH matter, this is just as little of an issue as the Thief's Knife.Quote:
Originally Posted by Insaniac
We know SE is capable of disabling possession of more than one certain trial weapon, as that's already the case for certain weapons (relics, mythics, empyreans). They could just make it so they share the same name and a flag that makes them rare in the sense that they can only have one of them. The ring solution would still be better, although the problem itself is so minor that you may as well just toss your Thief's Knife and be happier with your life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trumpy
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12-22-2012, 04:51 PMsaevel
Just use the augment system. Do some mini-quest, get a KI, trade the dagger to a ??? somewhere, kill the NM and retrieve your dagger. If you like the augments accept, otherwise decline and wait till next JP midnight to redo the quest. Alternatively use synergy augments similar to how abjurations are augmented.
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12-22-2012, 07:55 PMKylos
Just gave out some ideas. Only problem with being able to do a trial for anything, is that the weapon usually has to change it's name to distinguish from the original, which is why it's not as simple as your making it out to be.
Keeping the original thief's knife, while also giving the chance to upgrade it, without giving players the chance to dual wield two seperate TH knives, you see why it's not that simple? -
12-22-2012, 08:21 PMArconIt's no problem at all making trials that do not change the name of the weapon. Many trials are currently of this form. Look at relic/mythic/empyrean trials.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylos
I do not think it's a realistic solution because it's all a workaround for just one weapon, and I don't think SE will go for it. -
12-23-2012, 10:32 PMKylosI am all for it. I mean I don't really care how they implement it, so long as the dusty old thing is upgraded. Since the news came through that you need to keep Treasure Hunter gear on to make TH effectiveness proc more, people hate on the Thief's Knife even more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
It is a rare situation for a Thief to be used for anything but Treasure Hunter. The most useful place Thief can be used is Abyssea, and in there TH is not so important if you're just farming chests. It becomes very important when farming NMs for pop items/seals/+2's/Empyrean items. This is what annoys me the most, because I should be allowed to use two DD daggers, while also maintaining my Treasure Hunter.
When the news was announced, a Thief on ffxiah.com noted that he has a Mandau and a Twashtar. So all that work he put into those daggers (said they were both level 99), is negligible, because now he has to full time that TH dagger for the majority of a fight where TH matters. He could have just built a STR Thokcha and saved a ton of time and money.
SE need to either make the Thief's Knife useless, while also giving us another option of Treasure Hunter, or just upgrade it. Whatever is easiest for SE, ideas have been given, it is up to them now. Hopefully they don't just ignore this issue.
What gets me the most, is I used to have people telling me off for full timing the dagger, so I made sure I had a DD dagger to switch into after a Ranged Attack or melee hit. Now I know that's actually counter-productive, I am so glad I didn't decide to build a second STR Thokcha (those geodes are not cheap), but I feel bad for those people who spent millions on a second DD dagger. -
12-24-2012, 01:04 AMArcon
Wrong, he does not have to full-time Thief's Knife. If high TH would actually matter, the argument might be different, but as it stands now, he can apply it once and then leave it at TH7. I don't even own a Thief's Knife anymore (and I didn't even before I got my Mandau), I apply TH6 and leave it at that, and the difference is negligible. The only issue here are the people playing with him, and I feel sorry for him if they're too thick to let him play the way he wants for virtually no downside to them, but it still doesn't make this an issue worth spending any amount of development time on.
Just toss the thing and live a happier life.