hey Devs, how about a real explaination on TH please

as the title says how about some devs tell us how it really works so we really know

some of us have the theory that TH stacks so a THF can have TH7 with gear, while others have the theory that it doesn't stack like that, that it is in fact TH1+6 or TH2+5 or TH3+4

how about settling the argument for us please?

I for one really want to know who is right

since we know how many of us feel about this subject how about we keep bumping this thread till we get some sort of answer please?

Gear TH+1,1,2 total = 4 which adds TH4 to the running total cause it raises the TH Trait(s) from TH4 to TH8 when "Proc'ing", Ask yourself this question. How come the TH Trait(s) 1,2,3 total = 4 when procing and some count them as TH3. What some are doing is counting each TH Trait as one(1), Thinking each TH Trait cancels each other out or Myth believers that assume 1st hit on said mob is TH7, Without showing Proc in log.

How I feel about 1st hit TH7 without showing proc in log. Pretty sure its a myth cause I've proc'ed TH8 many time on 1st hit. I doubt TH7/8 "STACKED" and could proc in one hit. I'd say TH7 is another word for "Luck".


Group 1.)
1.) Lv. 15 Job Trait = Treasure Hunter
2.) Lv.45 Job Trait = Treasure Hunter 2
3.) Lv.90 Job Trait = Treasure Hunter 3
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^
^
Group 1.) Some like to believe that the 1st hit on said mob is TH3 without showing Proc in log.
^
Group 1.) Total Proc's for TH4~.
+
+
+
Group 2.)
1.) Lv.70 Thief's Knife = Treasure Hunter+1
2.) Lv.81 Raider's Poulaines +2 = Treasure Hunter+1
3.) Lv.90 Assassin's Armlets +2 = Treasure Hunter+2
---------------------------------------------------
^
^
Group 1 & 2.) Some like to believe that the 1st hit on said mob is TH7 without showing Proc in log.
^
Group 1 & 2.) Total Proc's for TH8~.

The only thing we don't know (for values higher than TH2) is the formula for increase in drop chance. We do know how TH works and stacks, and we did so for a very long time.

Each TH tier adds 1 TH to the resulting value. The gear you have and the traits you have stack to one number. That's your current TH value.

A Lv.90 THF with no gear has TH3. If he attacks a mob, TH3 is applied. You will not get a message when you apply TH, ever. You will only ever get a message if you upgrade TH. So if you have TH3, it's only natural the first message you get is TH4, because that's what you'll upgrade to. An easy way to test this, if you're curious, go THF/WAR with +1 TH in gear and Provoke a mob. Then unequip the +1 TH, use Bully, Sneak Attack and follow with a melee hit. It will upgrade to TH5, despite you only having TH3 on at that moment (0 from gear, 3 from trait). That means that there must have been TH4 on before, which proves you can apply TH just by hitting or casting on a mob once (or using a JA, as in this case), and do not need to see a message. This seems to be the biggest point of confusion among non-THF players at this point.

S.e. asked that I pass on this little message....., "No.".

O, and I agree with acorn.

Arcon, Think you're misunderstanding me. I am totally aware that THF at LV.90+ "HAS" TH3 it also "HAS" TH,TH2 in the trials list. Who to say they stack or not I don't really care. Also when Proc'ed<------- is what I been talking about this whole time. You're just repeating what I say in your own way enjoy your TH3 bud. ^^

Here is food for thought; BLM trails for one don't show; Magic Attack Bonus II,III,IV,V,VI. SE took them away as we leveled up. As for THF SE left Treasure Hunter I,II in list.

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...MTHFTraits.jpg

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Originally Posted by Krashport

Arcon, Think you're misunderstanding me. I am totally aware that THF at LV.90+ "HAS" TH3 it also "HAS" TH,TH2 in the trials list. Who to say they stack or not I don't really care. Also when Proc'ed<------- is what I been talking about this whole time. You're just repeating what I say in your own way enjoy your TH3 bud. ^^

Here is food for thought; BLM trails for one don't show; Magic Attack Bonus II,III,IV,V,VI. SE took them away as we leveled up. As for THF SE left Treasure Hunter I,II in list.

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I almost always (unless kill speed really isn't an issue) equip my TH gear for the ranged attack pull only. By the time the mob reaches me to attack me, I have unequipped it all (apart from the dagger if I bothered to equip it in the first place). Whether I get a proc on the first hit, or on the 10th attack round, that proc will be 1 higher than the TH I was wearing at the pull (or the highest TH I had equipped during the fight - if I get an add, I might still be wearing TH3 for the initial hit, but will equip TH gear at some point during the fight) regardless of the fact that I'm back to wearing no +TH gear when the proc occurs.

Fact.

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Originally Posted by Krashport

Arcon, Think you're misunderstanding me. I am totally aware that THF at LV.90+ "HAS" TH3 it also "HAS" TH,TH2 in the trials list. Who to say they stack or not I don't really care. Also when Proc'ed<------- is what I been talking about this whole time. You're just repeating what I say in your own way enjoy your TH3 bud. ^^

Here is food for thought; BLM trails for one don't show; Magic Attack Bonus II,III,IV,V,VI. SE took them away as we leveled up. As for THF SE left Treasure Hunter I,II in list.

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...MTHFTraits.jpg

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I would guess the reason why is because unlike Magic Attack Bonus of which they probably just change the effects of it at a certain level, so that it is still the same trait just more powerful, Treasure Hunter they needed to make multiple so that it would add up instead of just being altered in its base name.

I think there are several traits listed because TH tiers would be almost impossible for the player base to prove the existence of on their own, while other traits are easier to test the effects of. You can easily see if you have a new tier of clear mind, but you can't with TH.

I also found thf traits more effective if you have more people in an alliance when thief first hits. I say this because in a THF burn party the drops where few to none with 3 people. When we filled up with an alliance the items dropped so fast we couldn't even lot them fast enough before they fell out of the pool. They never exceeded the maximum drop they just dropped more.

Might be something to test out.

There are also some mobs that have 100% drop if you do a critical break on them such as marieds or Orobon NM's.

Keep in mind I figured out that the charmed Bitty Bugs in jugnar S (SP) gave treasure hunter way before SE made them as jug pets. I used them to farm with and only told a select few people my dirty secret.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

I almost always (unless kill speed really isn't an issue) equip my TH gear for the ranged attack pull only. By the time the mob reaches me to attack me, I have unequipped it all (apart from the dagger if I bothered to equip it in the first place). Whether I get a proc on the first hit, or on the 10th attack round, that proc will be 1 higher than the TH I was wearing at the pull (or the highest TH I had equipped during the fight - if I get an add, I might still be wearing TH3 for the initial hit, but will equip TH gear at some point during the fight) regardless of the fact that I'm back to wearing no +TH gear when the proc occurs.

Fact.

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Good for you Babekeke!, I've also noticed that the more TH+ you have on seems to enhances TH to proc (upgrade) quicker. Figuring out which TH# is best then start unequipping, But that falls under personal preference. TH9~10... maybe 13! :)

When I am on thief with max th+ gear, I always wait until the initial "level up" message in the log appears before switching to my DD set. If I claim the mob with max th+ then switch before receiving the message, it will start at the base of 4, and increment one at a time thereafter.

There is one notable exception, which SE did note in recent-ish patch updates, which is TH now has a chance to proc/level up during a weapon skill. So if that is the case, sometimes the first message regarding TH I see is that it moved to 9 (or in the case of treasure hunter being in affect, 10).

I like turtles c:

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Originally Posted by Vivivivi

WIf I claim the mob with max th+ then switch before receiving the message, it will start at the base of 4, and increment one at a time thereafter.

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That's incorrect.

After the first initial hit in full TH gear you can un~equip to your dd gear. There's no need to continue too melee in it in less it's true that it increase's the speed of TH proc's. I for one have never notice a difference tho.

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Originally Posted by tyrantsyn

After the first initial hit in full TH gear you can un~equip to your dd gear. There's no need to continue too melee in it in less it's true that it increase's the speed of TH proc's. I for one have never notice a difference tho.

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This seems to be true from the limited testing I've done so far. It seems the best way to get TH up is to fulltime in TH gear. Whether or not that is better for the overall yield depends on whether or not kill time is relevant. On very rare NM pops like King Behemoth, or possibly even Empyrean upgrade items I'd say fulltime the crap out of your TH gear. Otherwise I'd hardly recommend it.

I will admit i havent read anything but the first post, but i have noticed if i forget my theif knife before i touched the mob, I start with 1 less level of TH and then i reequip the THF knife and any procs i get afterwards never adds the +1 for the knife.

So i forgot my knife. the first proc i see says i got TH7 instead of TH8. i put on the knife and the next proc is TH8. hate that you cant fix that by adding your knife.

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Originally Posted by Trumpy

So i forgot my knife. the first proc i see says i got TH7 instead of TH8. i put on the knife and the next proc is TH8. hate that you cant fix that by adding your knife.

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Right, because putting the knife on brings you to TH7, which has already been placed on the mob.

I think it's as obvious as what TH does: It stacks starting from TH1 and always has unless they toyed with the coding for showing procs in log. There is no TH1 + TH2 + TH3 = TH6 stacking. It's meant to be taken literally. TH0 > TH1 > TH2 > TH3 > HOW DOES + TH GEAR WORK STARTING NOW!!!!???? > Insert procs > TH4 > TH5 > TH6 > TH7 END OF TH+ GEAR LINE(as far as I know) > TH8 and beyond.

Also we know for a fact at this point that TH0 sucks, TH1 is a sorta okay upgrade to no TH, TH2 is the best thing since your ex wife left you, TH3 and beyond takes a turn for the worst. Every upgrade past TH2 definitely is an improvement over TH2 but the boosts of awesomeness starts getting tame at best in comparison to the upgrade of TH2 from TH1. It's not because it's TH3 trait + gimpy gear TH+4 = TH"7". It's because SE has implemented measures to ensure they preserve "balance" of item drops. That's why TH3 was an extreme sub par upgrade from TH2 trait, and why TH levels after that are sub par and requires many proc upgrades to have a decent increase in drops in comparison to what TH2 gave us. It's so there isn't 500 silk threads on the AH at once. Nothing more or less.

I would love to know the math behind it. But for now I think I know the gist of it. Not gonna help much in the too weak farming department but it'll give you a welcomed boost during serious business farming whether you will notice it or not. But hey if someone wants to believe in TH3+4, have at it. Whatever you need. Just remember that obvious limitations to restrict how much crap you can farm up is obvious. No amount of TH is ever going to change what they program into the game in the name of balance. And that's why I for the most part retired from figuring out the secrets of TH.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

The only thing we don't know.......

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I agree with what you say but:

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All I know is that I know nothing, while others believe they know what they do not know.

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Socrates

There's no need to clarify how TH procs progress. That is well known despite the confusion of some people in this thread (who the hell really cares if TH2 replaces TH1 or adds to it to make TH=2). What is not known clearly is the effect that the various levels of TH have on drop rate. I don't think that SE will ever tell us how this actually works because if they do, everyone would realize that beyond TH3 or so, it makes such a small difference as to be completely insignificant and be very pissed.

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Originally Posted by Trumpy

I will admit i havent read anything but the first post, but i have noticed if i forget my theif knife before i touched the mob, I start with 1 less level of TH and then i reequip the THF knife and any procs i get afterwards never adds the +1 for the knife.

So i forgot my knife. the first proc i see says i got TH7 instead of TH8. i put on the knife and the next proc is TH8. hate that you cant fix that by adding your knife.

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A lot of time's I'll auto target a mob right after defeating another. And I don't always remember to swap to TH gear before I start to do damage. But I notice that as long as you switch into TH gear before the proc animation. It always take's it straight to the top TH when it occur's. After the fact, it does not matter. All proc's will only take it up by one. And adding extra TH won't make it jump any higher. If you want to call this testing. It was done with +2 relic hands.

Ok so Ill ask, what does TH do, how do higher levels effect things?

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Ok so Ill ask, what does TH do, how do higher levels effect things?

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Sigh, it makes finding the second item any given mob has crammed up their crack that much more obvious.....geeeeze, whadya want someone to spell it out for you..... O.o. Hehehe, that was a fail attempt at sarcasm.... Increases #s somewhere in the formula I'm guessing. >:}-~

1 year ago I did show that dynamis mobs that drop several of the same coins follow a single rule based on how likely it is to drop a single coin, similar to how the 1/2, 1/4 and 1/8 resist on elemental magic can proc. So this implies that TH will only affect the "base drop rate", aka the dop rate of 1 coins.

You mean to say that multiple coins can't drop unless you proc?

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

You mean to say that multiple coins can't drop unless you proc?

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Even with a proc you can end up with just one. More than likely it's a percentage deal. Maybe something like this

Slot 1:75%
Slot 2:50%
Slot 3:25%
Slot 4:10%
Slot 5:1%

And TH just up's the percentage? Note that I'm not saying this is how it work's. But if look at VW and take into consideration about the 1% drop rate of rare body's and weapon's. There my be a clue there to how TH work's out.

~lets out a heavy sigh~ I asked for some response from the community reps on how TH really works and instead I get responses from people who THINK they know how it works, no offense people but I won't take any of your words for any of how it works because the SE devs have not spoken

I know how I believe TH, TH II and TH III work, I have already said so, but I want to know how the devs intended or intend it to work. some of you probably don't because if it doesn't agree with what you believe you will get butt hurt over it, but I really want to know, from the devs(with a community rep translating if needed)

No. Kk ? Now back to speculation.

Well use this to your advantage. I look at it this way, show them that we have no clue in hell what it does and are divided in what we believe it is and maybe, just maybe, they will have mercy and tell us. Its rather sad after all of these years we are not 100% sure of what this trait does & they have never told us.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Well use this to your advantage. I look at it this way, show them that we have no clue in hell what it does and are divided in what we believe it is and maybe, just maybe, they will have mercy and tell us. Its rather sad after all of these years we are not 100% sure of what this trait does & they have never told us.

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Remember those years ago when during vanafests people would ask devs about things ingame and they'd actually tell us something? I wanna asuran fist those guys for not asking about TH.

Asuran fists of ascetic's fury.

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Originally Posted by tyrantsyn

Even with a proc you can end up with just one.

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I know that, and you can get multiple coins without proc.
That's why I was questioning Markovchain.

SE will never tell us what it does.

If they did, due to the minescule boost to TH above TH2...no one would ever invite a THF main to anything ever again (specifically for TH....maybe your best buddy is THF main and you feel bad for him?).

SE response to OP: "If you believe in the heart of the cards"

From what I've seen through testing, TH2 is the most noticeable difference.
TH3 and onward are very small drop rate increases in comparison. Arbitrarily small.
If you have a THF around with TH gear, great. If you can't afford it, having TH2 on someone will be very similar.

The TH proccing isn't too hard to understand, but I for one am curious about what advantages TH3 has against TH2 and TH1, for example.

So generally, we want to know what each tier is actually doing for us. I think the common belief is that each TH allows a reroll for each item, but it's incredibly difficult for us to study this.

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Originally Posted by DaBackpack

So generally, we want to know what each tier is actually doing for us. I think the common belief is that each TH allows a reroll for each item, but it's incredibly difficult for us to study this.

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It's not. It's been anything short of confirmed that TH1 and TH2 give rerolls for each item (single drop pools at least) but TH3 and higher have a diminishing effect. What exactly that is, that's yet to be determined.