I didn't see this in any of the other thread titles...
1.How do other Monks feel about Verethragna's aftermath only affecting our second punch? My chat log and animations cause me to think our aftermath can only proc on the "offhand" and I've seen talk about this elsewhere but don't remember the conclusion. What are your thoughts?
2.How do other Monks feel about the OA2-4 times H2H only allowing two kicks per round while using footwork?
I wish I could deal double damage on any melee swing especially while kicking (although it makes sense not being able to). It would be like a samurai dealing double damage with arrows from a Masamune aftermath proc to some people. I also wish when I'm goofing around with foot work I could kick more than twice with my 2-4 trial weapon equipped.
Aftermath Proc Rate
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03-18-2011, 06:11 PMRadioAftermath Proc Rate
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03-18-2011, 06:25 PMKutsurabi
lol
Hey look I need 10 characters to post -
03-18-2011, 07:28 PMGreatguardian
I generally don't mind my Vereth's aftermath only proc'ing on the Offhand (this was also confirmed by testing on BG, so your observations were spot on). The weapon as a whole is still so much more powerful than any other alternative that I certainly can't complain. I see it more as a balance tweak than any sort of nerf. If the Aftermath could proc on both fists, every other one-hand Empyrean user would be up in arms.
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03-18-2011, 08:47 PMNvr
While I would like to be able to kick 2-4 times with footwork, what alot of people don't realize is that, with the OA2-4x weapon, the chances of kicking twice are much much higher than the OAT weapon. It evens out in a way due to a fairly consistant double attack, but if we were able to kick 2-4x, it would make foorwork seem to have less delay lol.
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03-19-2011, 02:04 AMProteyWhy should they be... cuz Martial Arts reduces our delay? Look at the delay on dagger, yet they can proc every time. We should be able to proc on both fists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
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03-19-2011, 02:11 AMCream_SodaBecause you can't offhand another emp. So you'd only get the procs on a max of half of your swings, because single wielding is retarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Protey
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03-19-2011, 02:33 AMProteysingle wielding isn't always retarded, it depends on what you're trying to do. For instance, a rdm going /war or /drk for amber light (in an area where it isn't feasible to use aeolian edge) or !! procs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cream_Soda
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03-19-2011, 02:41 AMJesterkingDoing anything that is actually worth your time and single wielding is retarded. Nobody is going to fight anything single wielding, it'd be a waste of time when you could be doing damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Protey
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03-19-2011, 02:51 AMProteyi'll give you another example (though it's not empyrean, the argument has changed to single wielding), rdm solo doing aeolian edge farming, you'd use genbu's shield so you can maximize pdt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesterking
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03-19-2011, 04:19 AMArdiem
Prot, these are exceptions, not the rule.
If you're going for damage on mobs that matter (NMs and such) and aren't using a magical weaponskill to brew, and you CAN dual wield, you will be doing so. Its foolish not to. -
03-19-2011, 05:19 AMCream_SodaGood thing Aeolian edge will give you aftermath, eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Protey
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03-19-2011, 05:40 AMProteyyes i know, just making a point that it's not always retarded to single wield.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardiem
hmm, can have aftermath or kill 20 mobs at once. I'll bet if you were to time it, a person would be able to kill those 20 mobs at once a lot faster than killing 20 mobs one at a time with aftermath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cream_Soda
o and cream.... that guy in your sig is so gay. -
03-19-2011, 05:43 AMRadio
Damn that's some sound reasoning, but I have to honestly say it doesn't assuage my curiosity. It could be argued that we don't get any buffs from offhand weapons or grips but those things are hardly empyrean weapons I suppose. I look at our set bonus from AF3 and we aren't even able to proc our aftermath effect while kicking then a warrior crits for 1400 and I died a little on the inside. Well that's about as much I'm going to be able to type for now... Cream_Soda's signature is about as distracting as mine is. Thanks for adding to the discussion to all who gave some input.
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03-19-2011, 05:48 AMCream_SodaWell, when we're discussing aftermath procs, why would anything that does not give an aftermath proc be relevant to discussion?Quote:
hmm, can have aftermath or kill 20 mobs at once. I'll bet if you were to time it, a person would be able to kill those 20 mobs at once a lot faster than killing 20 mobs one at a time with aftermath.
No wonder you like him so much.Quote:
o and cream.... that guy in your sig is so gay.
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03-19-2011, 05:55 AMProteyThat would be from previous post where i had stated that the discussion had changed from aftermath proc to single wielding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cream_Soda
not into guys. not into sluts like the one in Radio's sig either.Quote:
No wonder you like him so much.
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03-19-2011, 06:01 AMCream_Soda
I'll rephrase from earlier.
If vereth procced on both hands, single wield emps would be the only ones not getting 100% of the time, because in 95%+ of practical situations, they will be dual wielding and will not have the option to offhand another empy in its place.
No need to be modestQuote:
not into guys. not into sluts like the one in Radio's sig either.
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03-19-2011, 06:23 AMProtey
wouldn't you normally be offhanding a tp weapon so it wouldn't even matter?
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03-19-2011, 06:32 AMCream_Soda
K nvm. I misread that. I get what you're saying.
That's my point, if you're offhanding a weapon, that weapon isn't going to get double damage.
Giving vereth double damage procs on both hands would leave dual wielders as the only ones not able to get procs on all of their attacks. -
03-19-2011, 06:34 AMRadioHey now, let's leave Beyoncé out of this! :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Protey
Let us proc on both hands and feet. That would be ideal for me. -
03-19-2011, 06:38 AMRadioAnd I'm fine with that. Although we'd still be unable to proc on kicks which means we still wouldn't be able to proc on all our attacks either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cream_Soda
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03-19-2011, 06:39 AMCream_SodaI'd be fine with it too. I'm just saying that it's most likely the reason it is the way it is and not that it's a bug, but that it was specifically programmed this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio
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03-19-2011, 06:39 AMGreatguardian
Kicks are a "Double Attack"-esque additional attack, they are not a part of the standard attack round like a 1-hander's offhand strike is.
Edit: What CS said -
03-19-2011, 06:50 AMProteyi think they would prefer it with only getting on empyrian, imagine if they used a multihit weapon as offhand and so got most of their procs on a weak weapon instead of the empyrian, that would suck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cream_Soda
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03-19-2011, 06:51 AMCream_SodaAnd it would be broken in comparison if h2h got it to proc on main/offhand and them only in mainhand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Protey
Which is why it is the way it is now.
Also, lol at them preferring only emp. "Oh hey, I prefer to have the option that is going to deal less damage and give me 0 benefit in exchange". -
03-19-2011, 07:06 AMGreatguardian
Empyrean/Multihit is a significantly weaker combination than Empyrean/(Kamome/AGI Sekka/Khanda+2 Double Attack+/STR Shamshir/STR Kila/DEX Kila/Triplus Dagger/STR Axe?) anyways.
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03-19-2011, 07:11 AMProteyThink about it, if you're procing more on the offhand weapon instead of the empyrian, you'd be doing less damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cream_Soda
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03-19-2011, 07:13 AMProteyso being able to WS more often is weaker than offhanding a stat weapon?Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
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03-19-2011, 07:14 AMCream_SodaThis makes no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Protey
If you have a 30% proc rate on your mainhand and a 30% procrate in your offhand, you'd still get the exact same number of procs on your Kanaggi. The only diff is the extra damage you bring in from your offhand procs.
How would you lose damage? -
03-19-2011, 07:14 AMCream_SodaYes, think of as being as useful as offhanding a Kclub or Mkris was at 75Quote:
Originally Posted by Protey
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03-19-2011, 07:18 AMProteyi was thinking when using a multihit as an offhand (which in your next post indicates that one shouldn't use a multi-hit as offhand)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cream_Soda
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03-19-2011, 07:20 AMGreatguardianUsing a multihit in the offhand, despite the increased TP gain, will deal much, much less damage overall than using a powerful, single-hit weapon in the offhand. This is especially true inside Abyssea where you have high native TA/DA traits from Atmas, but it is still true outside. The poor weapon rank of multihit weapons caps their fStr extremely low, and makes them nigh-worthless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Protey
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03-19-2011, 07:22 AMCream_SodaEven when you do use a multi hit as an offhand, how would you lose damage?Quote:
Originally Posted by Protey
Let's say you have a Kanaggi and a multihit weapon that averages 3 hits per attack round.
10 attack rounds
Kanaggi - 10 hits
Multihit - 30 hits.
Now, 30% ODD rate and only procs on Kanaggi
10 x (.3) = 3 hits that have double damage Kanaggi
30 x 0 = 0 hits that have double damage for Multi hit
Now, 30% ODD rate that procs on both weapons
10 x (.3) = 3 hits that have double damage on Kanaggi
30 x (.3) = 9 hits that have double damage on Kanaggi
Both instances have the exact same number of Kanaggi strikes to deal double damage. The only diff is if that it procced on both, you get 9 hits of your multihit that get double damage.
How on earth is this lowering your damage? -
03-19-2011, 07:25 AMGreatguardian
I think they're mistakenly referring to lowering the percentage of ODD procs in a sample which includes both main hand and offhand hits while using a multihit weapon. The number of ODD procs doesn't change, the ODD proc rate doesn't change, there are just more non-ODD'd attacks in their sample because it is inherently flawed. It's a fairly common mistake as far as the boards are concerned.
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03-19-2011, 07:30 AMProtey
for some reason i was thinking that the offhand weapon would hog all the procs and reduce the ones on the mainhand.
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03-19-2011, 09:41 AMMojo
Nah. The best way to measure how the offhand weapon affects your mainhand attack rate is to see how your overall delay is altered. For instance, changing from Kannagi/Kamome to Kannagi/Sekka +2 results in a delay change from 400 to 411 results in a 2.68% decrease in attack speed and thus a 2.68% difference in mainhand attack speed.
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03-19-2011, 10:00 AMFaule/nitpick sorry. It's actually 390 to 411.Quote:
changing from Kannagi/Kamome to Kannagi/Sekka +2 results in a delay change from 400 to 411
And you should know that! :D -
03-21-2011, 03:01 AMVyvian
Don't all of the top class hand-to-hand weapons have a similar restriction? Spharai can only get a triple proc on the main-hand (and even better, only the first punch of the main hand). I'm pretty sure I heard Glanzfaust only gets the Occasionally Attacks Twice procs on main hand, and now Verethragna only gets ODD on offhand. It seems odd that they'd do offhand, since the other weapons were main.
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03-21-2011, 04:31 AMRadio
I'm not here for the other top class hand-to-hand weapons. I'm barely even here for other monks with my weapon. I'm going to start a campaign to see that we can occ. deal double damage on both fists when using my Verethragna. It seems odd that they'd gimp my damage at all; mnk> the lesser dual wielding damage dealers. (The previous text is a satire[this note was added as a stop gap for random responses directly responding to this attempt at humor].)
It's odd to see that when it comes down to it that Monk is treated like it has dual wield. I thought we were special. Our hard punches, high HP, ability to counter, ease of reaching the haste cap, atmas that directly cater to our strengths, and assortment of new job abilities which have made us become the #1 bandwagon job in the game over the past few updates simply aren't enough. I needs my double damage!! That'll give me a real edge.