lolRelic WS [For those who don't believe me... :\]

This thread is to follow up with my other one in regards to the imbalance of relic/mythic with Emp weapon.

I have VV/GH/RR, mob is T, average metsu hit 500ish, average jin 2-3k, kikoku is lv90.

SS ==> http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/s...8/lolMetsu.png


I will post the other one for catastrophe when the game is back on.



Main thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...-have-you-done
Also See:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...BC%B7%E5%8C%96

I don't think anyone really questions the empyrean WS are generally better, but if you want to help, it's best to post numbers without any status effects, atmas or other modifiers.

Partly, this is because the same atmas don't all help for the same WS.
In abyssea, critical WS dominate, because of RR. if weaponskill doesn't have a critical attribute, it's not used, simple as that. Since there's a world outside of abyssea and we will probably be spending more time outside of it in the future, non-abyssea numbers are still helpful.

You have atmas on in that pic. Take the atmas off for both WS. Otherwise the comparison isn't fair (as I just said in the other thread)

Yes atmas were on when I deploy both Jin and Metsu; taking it off will effect both (lower dmg) I assume.

I will make another one outside aby when server is back on.

You missed your main hand hit, which actually gets the ftp bonus, and landed your offhand hit, which is essentially a melee hit w/ WS mods, since it's 1.0 ftp.

If you landed only 1 hit on jin and it did not crit, you'd get very similar damage.


zomg fix relic threads are second in annoying factor, only beaten by abyssea threads.

Cream_Soda thanks for the analytic explanation; the problem is, honestly, I have not had once with Jin getting that kind of awkward laughable damage... I don't remember exactly but none were less than 1.2k dmg with the same setup...

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Originally Posted by Sama

Cream_Soda thanks for the analytic explanation; the problem is, honestly, I have not had once with Jin getting that kind of awkward laughable damage... I don't remember exactly but none were less than 1.2k dmg with the same setup...

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jin is 3 (4 hit with off hand?) with double attack on top of that, the chance of only landing 1 is very small.

then you are talking about a ws that is 1 hit with offhand to add 1 hit, it will happen a lot more for that reason

rememeber there is a cap acc concpet in this game
95-96 ish% =/= 100%

I'm not sure how uptight SE is about it now, but there are things in your screenshot you may not want to show off in public, especially since you're using your Square-Enix ID on here as well. Just a heads up.

Well, jin is 4 hits when you include the offhand hit.

Jin is 1.0 ftp per hit, making it 4.0 ftp, if you use gorget, the first hit is 1.1 ftp, shadow belt, 1.2 ftp.

So you're looking at a max of 4.2 ftp before looking at DA/TA procs (I'm not going that far into it).

1.2, 1.0, 1.0, 1.0 ftp respectively on the four hits.

First hit: 1.2/4.2 = 28.57%
Second hit: 1/4.2 = 23.81%
Third hit: 1/4.2 = 23.81%
Fourth hit: 1/4.2 = 23.81%

As far as blade jin goes, comparing crit vs crit and non crit vs non crit, The first hit is only worth 28.57% of your total damage, where as the second, third and fourth are worth 23.81% of your damage each.

Even missing the main hit, you're still have the potential to reach 71.43% of your maximum damage.


Let's look at Metsu
3.0 ftp, plus one offhand hit for 4.0 total. Add gorget + belt, 4.2 ftp (and w/ better mods imo than Jin, if this ws could crit, you'd have a better ws)

First hit is 3.2 ftp, second hit is 1.0 ftp.

First hit: 3.2/4.2 = 76.19%
Second hit: 1/4.2 = 23.8%

See how much more important the first hit is here than in Jin? If you miss that first hit, 76% of your damage is trashed and you're left w/ the pathetic 23.8% remainder.

This is why your damage was so low.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aerius

I'm not sure how uptight SE is about it now, but there are things in your screenshot you may not want to show off in public, especially since you're using your Square-Enix ID on here as well. Just a heads up.

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Well being on the safe side, you are 100% correct, but there's no proof that the character even belongs to him, so there's nothing incriminating about the screen shot. (though, I personally wouldn't risk something like that)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Well, jin is 4 hits when you include the offhand hit.

Jin is 1.0 ftp per hit, making it 4.0 ftp, if you use gorget, the first hit is 1.1 ftp, shadow belt, 1.2 ftp.

So you're looking at a max of 4.2 ftp before looking at DA/TA procs (I'm not going that far into it).

1.2, 1.0, 1.0, 1.0 ftp respectively on the four hits.

First hit: 1.2/4.2 = 28.57%
Second hit: 1/4.2 = 23.81%
Third hit: 1/4.2 = 23.81%
Fourth hit: 1/4.2 = 23.81%

As far as blade jin goes, comparing crit vs crit and non crit vs non crit, The first hit is only worth 28.57% of your total damage, where as the second, third and fourth are worth 23.81% of your damage each.

Even missing the main hit, you're still have the potential to reach 71.43% of your maximum damage.


Let's look at Metsu
3.0 ftp, plus one offhand hit for 4.0 total. Add gorget + belt, 4.2 ftp (and w/ better mods imo than Jin, if this ws could crit, you'd have a better ws)

First hit is 3.2 ftp, second hit is 1.0 ftp.

First hit: 3.2/4.2 = 76.19%
Second hit: 1/4.2 = 23.8%

See how much more important the first hit is here than in Jin? If you miss that first hit, 76% of your damage is trashed and you're left w/ the pathetic 23.8% remainder.

This is why your damage was so low.

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wind/ thunder
and you didn't math the chance of missing 3 hits out of 4.
thats .011875%
not counting DA/TA, its even lower with that

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Well being on the safe side, you are 100% correct, but there's no proof that the character even belongs to him, so there's nothing incriminating about the screen shot. (though, I personally wouldn't risk something like that)

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I prefer being /anno here; I would not like being /check every 15 sec if I have have char name shown here.

Thanks for your understanding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rambus

wind/ thunder
and you didn't math the chance of missing 3 hits out of 4.

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I don't even know I typed Shadow tbh. I just typed it apparently, you're correct on wind thunder. I just meant to put ele belt/gorget, lol

And I did.

I showed how much each hit was worth as an individual.

land first hit, miss the last 3? Look at the amount for first hit.

Land second, third, or fourth and miss the rest, then look at second, third or fourth hit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sama

I prefer being /anno here; I would not like being /check every 15 sec if I have have char name shown here.

Thanks for your understanding.

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The person i was responding to is referring to the obvious windower plug ins by the person in the screen shot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

I don't even know I typed Shadow tbh. I just typed it apparently, you're correct on wind thunder. I just meant to put ele belt/gorget, lol

And I did.

I showed how much each hit was worth as an individual.

land first hit, miss the last 3? Look at the amount for first hit.

Land second, third, or fourth and miss the rest, then look at second, third or fourth hit.

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all you stated was damage % of each hit is worth vs the potinal total, unless i missed it somewhow, anyways I was editing my post

thats .011875%
not counting DA/TA, its even lower with that

you said shaddow because you had blade metsu on your mind

be thankful your not a sam, id rather take that damage than missing completely

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rambus

all you stated was damage % of each hit is worth vs the potinal total, unless i missed it somewhow, anyways I was editing my post

thats .011875%
not counting DA/TA, its even lower with that

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Well w/o any numbers, I can't go as far as to tell exact ws DMG. I'd need enemy stats, your stats, etc. It was a relative model to show how much damage you lose by missing the first hit in Metsu vs Jin.

For example, let's say you do a 1000 dmg ws in total for both ws.

If you only land 1 hit in either one, one of the 1.0 ftp hits, then you're going to get the same dmg on both ws' (provided you're looking at a 1000 dmg jin vs a 1000 dmg metsu).

If you land the first hit on each and none of the others, then you'd get

761.9 dmg on Metsu and 285.7 dmg on Jin.

About the most relative comparison I can give as a general comparison.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sureal

be thankful your not a sam, id rather take that damage than missing completely

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i have to disagree in this statement, all relic owner got 25% increase for they relic WS, mean a lots for SAM, that don't mean much for THF, and i am sure is same case for many relic like huh gungir...

Also, to correct myself, unless your offhand is the same DMG as your mainhand,the offhand hit will be the lowest DMG hit of them all. I am more used to doing mnk math, where offhand hit is always going to count as the same DMG, since you can't wield multiple weapons, so in my model, the assumption of equiv base DMG weapons was made.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Well w/o any numbers, I can't go as far as to tell exact ws DMG. I'd need enemy stats, your stats, etc. It was a relative model to show how much damage you lose by missing the first hit in Metsu vs Jin.

For example, let's say you do a 1000 dmg ws in total for both ws.

If you only land 1 hit in either one, one of the 1.0 ftp hits, then you're going to get the same dmg on both ws' (provided you're looking at a 1000 dmg jin vs a 1000 dmg metsu).

If you land the first hit on each and none of the others, then you'd get

761.9 dmg on Metsu and 285.7 dmg on Jin.

About the most relative comparison I can give as a general comparison.

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do you have to miss all hits but last? at cap acc miss>miss>miss>hit is 0.011875% chance of happening.

The only hit that's mandatory to miss is the first hit. Assuming same DMG on weapons in main/offhand, then second, third, and fourth make no diff.

It's not the last hit specifically, it's just one of the offhand hits. if it was specific to the fourth being the only one to land, then the chances of it happening would be much lower than it already is (and it's extremely rare to only land 1/4 as it is w/ 95% hitrate)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ilax

i have to disagree in this statement, all relic owner got 25% increase for they relic WS, mean a lots for SAM, that don't mean much for THF, and i am sure is same case for many relic like huh gungir...

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except if you miss your one swing ws's, then you get 0 damage regardless of any boosts

Abyssea is not forever

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

The only hit that's mandatory to miss is the first hit. Assuming same DMG on weapons in main/offhand, then second, third, and fourth make no diff.

It's not the last hit specifically, it's just one of the offhand hits. if it was specific to the fourth being the only one to land, then the chances of it happening would be much lower than it already is (and it's extremely rare to only land 1/4 as it is w/ 95% hitrate)

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Miss>miss>miss>hit >0.011875%
Miss>hit>miss>miss>0.011875%
Miss>miss>hit>miss >0.011875%

total chance of missing 3 hits=0.035625%

again its much less depending how much DA and TA

when you said "offand" i thought it was just the offhand extra hit.