Hello, Square Enix, This Note is not going to the Players, but it shall may give SE a tought about the huge Summoner damage probelm, what is still remain in ffxi.
I realyze, that a lot of Patches comming out about dynamis,legion, VW ect.
Nice and good, but like always: The real problem in ffxi still reamining.
One of it is the Summoner.
I'd like to ask some question, because there are lots of things about Summoner, what simmply isn't going out of my head:
.Why does only Shiva & garuda relative passable damage, and the other Avatars are simply to vorget, what dammage depends? Why is that so? Why has never gave Changes about the Dammage that Fenrir does. I was doing Trial 1748 solo, because doing Trial's is a solo job. it is incredible Luck if you find someone who help you, or has the same Trial up, like me. I do 1500-1600 dmg on the Mouse Slimes on Bosteaunix Obilete. i need 2x Lunar Bay till the mob has 0 HP left. Peoples, thats insane, a absolute No GO!!!!!! on lv 99 the damage of all avatars should be a t last 2000-2700 Dmg. I Sufferered so incredible on This Trial, you hardly can Emagine.
So Please Increase the Dammage of the Avatars or give em new pet comands to solve this problem.
.What i not can understand is further:
There are tonns of VW equipment, for almost all classes. And, with that i mean realy a lot. Why has Summoner so little Good gear? I have never seen 1 Good Gear with Avatar Magic Atackbonus from VW. WHY? Why has WAR DRK THf SAM ect so incredible good equipment, what can be atained from VW, and summoner has nothing.
WHY!!!! I love the Summoner Job alot, because it is so real oldscool job. But besiedes The handvull Summoner af3+2 and the Neck, earring & belt is nothing possibel for Summoner.
Please give My note a tought.
.What is more importand to make playing Summoner more fun, is that the critical Hits are much more embarresing than on BLM. Summoner Avatars need a increasing of the Petcomand rage's Critical Hits. I get a Critical 1/100 atm. That is almost as Summoner can't do Critical Hits in the first place.
.There is a point in ffxi, that is a pain in the ass since teh Game has comed out 2003. I play since 2003. The WHM Spell Rain: It last only 30-40 sec, than it dispell. What is the reason for sutche a spell in ffxi in the first palce?. Square Enix maybe not realyze, but Rain Spell is a verry Importand spell, if peoples doing Trial. Sublementation draisn HP fast out siede of abissea, and i get Blood Agoo so much, i hardly can handle. So my I deea of Rain spell duration should be at last 4 Minutes no mater if lv1 or lv 4. lv 5 is strong and mybe 3 Min is enough. But lv 1-4 Rain should have this duration. We are all lv 99 today. Please Stop with Gimp spell Duration's. FFxi is More than ever in need of real game Qualetys.
With friendly regards
Your Turialon
Summoner need a Avatar Danage Adjustment.
Printable View
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06-25-2012, 10:32 PMSkyVargrantSummoner need a Avatar Damage Adjustment.
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06-26-2012, 12:26 AMFinuve
I agree, I feel that if avatars had Danage targets to practice on then we would see less misses and more bullseyes coming from avatars.
http://www.danagetargets.co.uk/images/bg_banner.jpg -
06-26-2012, 03:25 AMDmer
Lunar bay damage is based on moon phase. and slimes have PDT- trait, so every other Fenrir BP is crap on them because they are all physical. That trial was the worst one of all the SMN staves trials. I wouldn't used that as a case for SMN damage across the board.
Level your SMN magic skill.
If by "rain spell" you mean regen, then yes it's a short duration for very low MP cost. it's the most mp/hp ratio efficient healing spell in the game. Yes its duration is shorter then sublimation. That's what stoneskin is for . . . . -
06-26-2012, 04:59 AMEdyth
If you think only Shiva and Garuda are relevant, get with the times.
Chaotic Strike has always been a blunt-type Predator Claws that also stuns the target. Shock Squall is also superior to any of Garuda's wards for a solo SMN in battle. Ramuh can grab hate like no other avatar with a ward pact. If you're not casting Dia II on everything, stop being a noob. Shock Squall deals 5000+ on blunt-weak enemies with Dia II. In Abyssea, he should be hitting 5000~9000+ on the Corse NM in Tahrongi, and 2000~5000+ on Teekesselchen in Grauberg, using Razed Ruins, Voracious Violet, and the non-offensive Ducal Guard for survivability. Garuda should be hitting for shit (approx. 2000~3000).
On weaker easy prey, outside of Abyssea, after Dia II, Ifrit's Flaming Crush should reliably hit for 3800~5500, nearly or succesfully one-shotting lower easy prey, while Predator Claws will hover around 2000~3000, and Chaotic Strike around 2000~4000. This was on spiders, so no damage type weakness. In Abyssea, after Dia II, Ifrit should hitting for ~7000+ on easy prey, nearly or successfully one-shotting, depending on target. If you want proof, go for Battering Rams in La Theine for example. This is once again with Razed Ruins/Voracious Violet. Flaming Crush's level correction is high though, so the damage drops substantially on higher targets. Ifrit also has the most damaging Assault due to Inferno Howl.
Against the most physically resistant targets, like VWNMs for example, Predator Claws often performs best; it seems to have lower level correction than Chaotic Strike.
My numbers are affected by my 498 summoning skill, 3 physical acc merits, empyrean +2 body/head/shoes, Karura Hachigane for Garuda, relic +2 gloves. The other gear I use isn't relevant because it doesn't increase damage except by summoning magic skill.
However, I'll give your gibberish post a like because avatars are indeed underperforming in Voidwatch compared to other content, in my opinion.
P.S.: DO NOT TOUCH AVATAR'S FAVOR WITH A NINE-AND-A-HALF FOOT POLE if you care about your avatar's damage. It substantially cuts your avatar's damage output as a trade-off for the reduced perpetuation cost and the piddly little favor. -
06-26-2012, 05:23 AMDoctrine
the only real fix i see summoners needing is gettin rid of perp cost.
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06-26-2012, 05:36 AMRezeak
ur joking right avatar are all basically free now if you get the gear ?
and yes SMN needs a DMG boost my reason have been posted before but SMN main purpose was Safe DMG so it wasn't like the best DD in the game but if things go bad, SMNs could keep the dmg going.
now we have a ton of LOL SURRPORT crap as our boosts as our dmg relatively goes down and down ruining the job.
Small thing Edyth
Avatar pacts don't have a level correction which is why they always perform well vs ToAU kings and top teir ZNMs back at 75.
Ifrits physical blood pact has a magical component which screws it over.
Chaotic strike weaker than Pclaw by about 7%-14% cause the first hit is weaker. (on bones and stuff ofc it's stronger) -
06-26-2012, 05:54 AMDoctrinedoesnt matter if they are 'basically' free. they need to be free period. this perp thing was cute back in the day, but now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
its trite, and completely unnessecary -
06-26-2012, 06:06 AMSargent
Damage per Blood Pact is fine. It's the rate in which we can execute them that isn't. If you use a full mix and match set, your damage will increase. Also as mentioned, use different Blood Pacts depending on the mob your fighting. Only extra Blood Pact I would ask for would be a piercing Blood Pact, the last we got was Crescent Fang at Lv.10.
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06-26-2012, 06:34 AMSpankWustler
Consuming amphetamines can be awesome, if not that productive.
Talking about an under-performing job can be cathartic, if not that productive.
Consuming amphetamines when trying to talk about an under-performing job is neither awesome nor productive. If my life experience is anything to go by, trying to steal the two-year-old tires off of my two-decade-old car in a Wal-Mart parking lot is a much more enjoyable activity for a bro whose every neuron is rapturously fighting to see which gets to fire first and hardest. Like a billion tiny vikings.
I hear clubbing works well, too. Like a billion tiny techno-vikings.
Godspeed, friend!
I "like"d this topic in spite of not being able to read it, because maybe it will go somewhere interesting and there is some validity in it. Currently, the majority of Summoner's contribution to normal group activities of any difficulty is Perfect Defense. I can't see that as such an exciting contribution to dynamic game-play that it should be the singular cornerstone of a job. -
06-26-2012, 06:36 AMRezeakthe avatars cost 15 mp a tickQuote:
Originally Posted by Doctrine
HQ staff = -3
Relic +2 head = -2
Emp +2 body = -4
Emp+2 Feet = -3
Evoker ring = -1
Augur legs = -1
=-14 (will always cost 1)
and auto refresh gives you 2 mp a tick
sooo yea 1 mp a tick is the cost for avatars
ooo btw sub sch and use weather w/ Emp+2 hands and yea u can prolly switch out more perp gear for DoT gear or Refresh gear.
Also the trail staffs give -7.
Honestly your just saying "I'm too lazy to put prep gear on or get prep gear"
O yea not to mention the back then augement is even less valid w/ stuff like convert, refresh or sublimation.
I need no buffs to spam blood pact rages and keep avatars out so yea mp costs aren't really a issue infact i wish i could use my mp more to do more dmg.
Honestly QQing about 1 mp a tick isn't worth the devs time. -
06-26-2012, 10:53 AMSargentNot to be pedantic, but Relic head is -3. The refresh from Stearc/Nares will be better in most situations than Augur's, and Nashira/Adhara Gages have -1/-2 perp. It really is possible to get free avatars without magians, perpetuation costs do not need adjusting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezeak
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06-26-2012, 05:59 PMAnapingofness
I agree that the avatars need to do way more damage period.
Their perp cost is quite annoying, always has been even with all of the -perp gear. Especially since summoner is limited by the bp timers. A melee or a mage will out damage them any day. The other pet job do not have as many restrictions as summoner because they are not MP based. Everything about summoner requires mp. To summon the avatar, to keep it out, to do blood pacts...
Even if you get the per prate to -1 mp per tick it will still be a pain because that -1 mp will add up with everything else.
The biggest problem, however, is the lack of damage. The bp's should be on par with melee weaponskills and mage spells at the very least and they're not.
I love the job, I really do but there is a reason that it's simply a side project for me. There are too many limitations to make it worth swapping out for in a party or alliance situations. It won't do as much damage as a normal melee or mage and it can't keep up with curing so it can't really help from that angle. At best it is a very situational job.
I wish they'd just make it an efficient solo class and move it away from this limbo it's been stuck in since the job came out. -
06-26-2012, 06:12 PMArciel
Perp cost is perfectly fine.
There is absolutely no need to get magians for perp cost. Decent to good gear on all other slots can afford you 3-5 mp/tic refresh with avatar out before considering Refresh from sub or external sources.
Damage isn't really an issue.
Thanks to no level correction, avatar damage per BP has always been decent/good. With some of the new gear available you can really make a significant difference in damage per pact.
Speed is the biggest problem.
With only 1 damage BP per 45s at best a SMN is literally held back by the BP timer now, especially when it can sit on a wellspring of MP at the same time. This is also highly impractical considering almost every other job has the means to crank out more damage in a short amount of time if they so desire it.
Put simply, for a SMN to use BPs, it has no place in zerg / burst damage situations, and needs something that allows it the flexibility to choose when it wants to push for more damage in a shorter amount of time.
Arguably if you're talking about DPS, higher spike damage from your pacts will bring that number up, but realistically speaking SMN damage is few and far between. More frequent BPs will net better utility than bigger damage spikes, especially if you're talking about the possibility of multiple targets.
The best solution that I think would work is really to have a JA that works on charges that resets BP timers.
For example, say this JA can charge up to 5 charges every 5 minutes. In a zerg scenario, a SMN would be able to put out 6 back to back BP:Rages, but won't be able to do the same for the next 5 minutes. It isn't exactly broken because a SMN is still ultimately limited by MP, but at least you're actually making more efficient use of it. You also can't use it to spam 2hrs because of the MP cost requirements.
Ok maybe once every 5 minutes may be too frequent, or not.. but you get the idea. And seriously even so I highly doubt it would come close to matching the output of melee zergers.
Alternatively, we have the possibility of the 2nd 2HR ability which allows SMN to work outside the constraints of BP timer, for 3 minute. That is to say, for 3 minutes, Blood Pact recast timer is 0. Once again, this is balanced out by the MP limiter. It'd be like a SMN Tabula Rasa.
anyway. tl;dr
Speed is the problem. Please fix. -
06-26-2012, 07:30 PMSkyVargrantHello (:
my Summon Magic Skill is caped since a long time. Like i postet on my threath Summoner need new Equipment tough.
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06-26-2012, 07:58 PMDantedmc
My Suggestions for SMN:
General
-Lower the BP Cap to 12 seconds (-80%) in line with Fast Cast, Haste, and Recast caps
-Increase Avatar melee damage and possibly BP damage
-Enhance many of the ward BPs' potency
Favor Related
-Remove the negative penalties from avatar's favor
-Remove the charge up from favor, the favor should always be at full potency
-Change Titan's favor to pdt
-Change Fenrir' favor to mdt or mdb
-Increase the potency of Carby's favor and possibly Shiva's Favor
New Stances
-One new stance that increases BP damage
-One new stance that enhances Avatar's Favors -
06-27-2012, 12:54 AMSkyVargrant
Right you are. Negative efect on Avatar's Favour is simply absolut unacessary. The other points i can just agree as well.
But Summoner need new gear tough. The Af3+2 is greates parts good, but with that is it not done. Why have Summoner only: Caller Earring, Caller Pendant and Caller Sash, when tonns of other good Equipment on this slots are aviable for all other Jobs. If i see a summoner running around, than he have Earring, Pendant & Sash equiped, because there is no other real option. That#s a absolut blame from SQ. Time that they finaly adjust the Summoner for good. -
06-27-2012, 01:11 AMSargentEquipment is much better at the moment, especially compared to what it was at 75. The only thing that needs adding equipment wise is a Physical attack head, and a second ring. Fervor is nice, but it's just skill. Every other job has some way to enhance damage on their rings.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyVargrant
Look into the possible rewards from A Crystalline Prophecy and A Moogle Kupo d'Etat keys. I agree, it's incredibly tedious to get said items, but the equipment is available (Earring/Back slots in this case).
I agree, lowering the cap for BP delay to 12 seconds would be a saving grace to the job, and from a mage perspective, this makes sense. From SEs perspective, I think the 45s cap was to coinside with melee gear haste cap, which is 26%, so almost identical. But SMNs lagged behind since this is the only way to increase the rate of spike damage barring atma, whereas for other jobs, there's Haste/Hasso/Songs etc. If they were to lower the cap on BP timer to 12s, the gear isn't available for it, meaning the most resourced players still won't be able to achieve it, but it would show a massive difference between those who can be bothered to use said gear and gear swap, and those who just fulltime full AF3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantedmc
I agree with increasing standard melee damage, or at least making it so pet attack equipment or the like increases the damage. It is currently far too low. However, I think Blood Pact damage is fine.
At the moment, I don't even bother with Favor, and no one expects me to. It's partly because the buffs are weak nowerdays, but mostly because the people who know me know that the damage is lost when I use it, and they usually ask me to come SMN for the hateless, consistent damage. Diabolos's Favor is all I use it for. So yes, Favor does need an adjustment, especially considering other buffs. At the very least, with SE increasing Protect effects, maybe make Titan's Favor... half useful? I wouldn't say remove the penalty altogether, I see it as sort of a Summoner's Defender. The idea isn't to fulltime it. I would, however suggest that like Yonin and Innin, reduce the recast to 3mins so we can click it off and reuse it if the situation arises.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantedmc
I like the first part, even if it is a lil unessesary with all the equipment nowerdays. However, I don't see a need to have a stance that enhances Favor, Favor just needs adjusting in general. To put it simply, I see Favor as it's own stance, it seems a bit weird to have a stance to enhance a stance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantedmc
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06-27-2012, 01:20 AMVortex
I agree with lowing the BP timer, as that is the biggest draw back to smn atm, and they can't throw the balance card because MP cost for all the major bps would stop you in your tracks if you use it enough times.
i would also really REALLY like to see a new, STRONG peircing BP right now the only ones we have are cresent fang and claw, the 2 low level bps. i was hoping a while back odin would have took care of that but my hopes were shot down when i found out he was 2 hour only.
and i don't know if it's ben said but prep cost is not a problem, i can even get free pets with B staff, none of the staves are needed, nor am i wasting space and time to make them.
and perhaps have SMN magic skill help damage as well. -
06-27-2012, 01:32 AMSargent
I agree, a decent Piercing pact is needed. I can see Cait Sith having one. Possibly. Stabbing with Claws?
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06-27-2012, 02:52 AMBabekekeEclipse Bite at 65 is also piercing. @75 vs birds it was about on-par for damage with Predator Claws. Damage to MP ratio was significantly higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sargent
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06-27-2012, 04:16 AMRezeak
I would also like to see 1 piecing pact that can deal decent amount of DMG.
For Blood pact timers the cap should be at least 30 sec
I mean mages have the ability to hit 50% recast and DDs are able to hit 80% haste so having pact on a 50% recast doesn't seem broken tho only having the abilty to hit 25% solo sux.
After that i would love an option to use more mp to do more dmg (like +50% mp for +50% DMG)
As for fixing support PLEASE PLEASE do that later look SMN Niche is the DMG it can do safely if SE works on support ur just keep putting us up against SCH COR and BRD which we will lose every time outside of perfect defense but our safe DMG niche only puts us up against Relic gun RNGs and the fact we can zombie means we offer something different.
Last thing imma gonna say on perp
If you still have an issue w/ it then please go complain about WHMs and BLMs mp recovery first since SMN can gain more mp with an avatar out because we have Auto Refresh +2 and Elemental Siphon vs WHMs and BLMs nothing.
Honestly i want to use my mp alot faster to deal more DMG giving some tactics to SMN like yea you can push out alot of DMG but your gonna need support or your gonna have to rest or you can just play it as it is now and keep the DMG steady. -
06-27-2012, 04:23 AMseallux
kinda have to agree with you guys here summoner been needing a "Real" update for some time any class can pretty much out damage a smn... including bst which at the time everyone loved smn back then smns used to be able to do a lot more things like smn burns , bcnms , high lv fights , but now they'r like ehhh.. more or less people would rather lv thf for TH or Bst for Farming purposes but yeah Smn update please and i mean real update that will make summoners look more like a class itself
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06-27-2012, 05:10 AMSargentEclipse Bite is in fact slashing damage. Source.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babekeke
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06-27-2012, 05:53 AMHimuraKenshyn
bp timer reduction would be the only thing for me. We should be able to lower it to the 30 second range and I would be happy 20 ecstatic. Still hate-free damage does come at a cost still and the devs never gonna just ignore that. My call beast timer is such a pain as well lol.
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06-27-2012, 06:02 AMZerich
my sumanor danage are best
no nerf tasnaka -
06-27-2012, 04:57 PMAnapingofness
Eh? You think auto-refresh+2mp per tic is good? Jeez...
The auto refresh should scale up with how high your lvl is so by 99 it should, at the very least be 5mp per tick seeing as SMN depends on mp to do everything. Still think 5mp per tick is too much? Go spam some bps even at 12 second intervals. At 200+mp a pop you'll run out of MP real fast.
On that note, I disagree with Arciel suggestion. Keeping any job from doing things for 5min is just... I mean, why would you ever want to penalize a job for doing what it does best? It's like saying, ok WHM you can cast Cure back to back x6 times but then, you have to wait 5min before you could do it again. If SMN's could do back to back PB's solo it would kill their MP really quickly, it's also why WHM's and BLM's don't spam their spells outside of aby (ignoring hate issues it could/may cause). Even then if you spam them you can actually run out of mp faster than it comes back.
On the other hand, I agree with Dantedmc's post, 100%.
Even if nothing else, Dantedmc's suggestion would speed up kills and make it useful in a pt situation (omg unheard of, I know). SMN is still very limited by the mp factor so there's your balance. I don't see people complaining about being limited by MP on BLM and WHM, the difference is that they at least have something to offer other than a situational 2hr.
Tbh, SMN today reminds me of thf back in the day- basically, they're one trick ponies until something gets done. -
06-27-2012, 08:06 PMhideka
all smn needs is the BP Recast timer cap removed or increased to -75%(-45 seconds) vs - 15 seconds
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06-27-2012, 09:09 PMSkyVargrant
Hey Peoples, i realy apreciate that so many player take part on this Discussion. With Enough respondes Square Enix finaly decide to adjust the Summoner Job, so that Summoner can be much more fun soon. What would i be with out you guys & Girls (:
Lets stick togather.
Thank you -
06-28-2012, 12:41 AMArcielQuote:
Originally Posted by Anapingofness
actually what i was suggesting was if you used the 5 charges, you could do 6 back to back BP: rages (and/or more wards), but after that for the next 5 minutes, you would be back to the typical 45-60s until your 5 charges accumulate, or you could use them as they charge back up for 2 BP rages at a go every minute or so.
basically it'd be a layer on top of the existing super slow system that allows you to essentially BP twice as often if you use it each moment a charge accumulates, or up to 6 times in a row once every 5 minutes.
you're not familiar with strategems?
killing MP quickly isn't a real issue with SMN at the moment. the real problem is i can't kill MP fast enough, which means I am not particularly efficient. -
06-28-2012, 01:58 AMAnapingofnessActually, I am familiar with strategems but that's neither near nor there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arciel
Nevertheless, I seem to have misunderstood your suggestion because of wording. My apologies.
Now, while this would be better than what we currently have, I would still prefer a lower bp timer.
Realistically, your suggestion would be very overpowering to SMN because you could literally zone into a place and take out like 50% of an HNM's HP.
Personally, that would be like amazingly cool and SMN's would be GODS, I tell you, GODS! Buuutt... it really is a balance issue at that point so they wouldn't do it.
That's why I would prefer a lower bp timer + beefier summons and the like. -
06-28-2012, 02:24 AMArciel
considering the crap we're putting up with i think we kinda deserve it :p
that said, its just a suggestion and there are many ways to scale such an idea up or down, through number of charges / time per charge.
granted it could be a bit overpowering, it isn't something you can always do. 6 x 182 (most expensive rage pact atm) is almost 1100 mp, which is no problem if you start full, but isn't something a SMN can pull off with half an MP pool, or in drawn out fight anywhere outside VW or Abyssea. The MP cost is like a built in balancer.
such a scenario also requires the avatar to survive dmg / not take statuses that prevent BPs to be at its most efficient. but of course because avatars are dispensable its really more of an inconvenience than anything else if its not optimal.
I'd gladly take a lower natural BP timer like 30 seconds base but would still love to be able to push out some burst damage from BPs once in a while without relying on like a COR.
If you've tried NMs by speedburning with SMN it can be really fun. Last i tried it was at lv75 with 5smn 1cor in the party vs Jormy. 5 x P Claws > Random Deal > P Claws for whoever it reset BP for > Wild Card > 5 x P Claws > Random Deal > P Claws again. really luck based but it wasn't too bad when we did that.. once in the whole fight >_< -
06-28-2012, 05:59 AMAnapingofness
I get where you're coming from.
Tbh, SMN is one of the more glaring jobs that needs a lot of TLC and god dust. Other jobs could use a sprinkling of god dust as well to make them more awesome.
To bad that whenever you mention making something better the "hardcore" players and trolls alike will start frothing at the mouth. I mean, God forbid people actually have fun playing a game in a way that they don't.