Dispel II

Would be a useful spell to have. RDM learns Dispel before SCH and before BRD learns Finale and before BLU learns Blank Gaze; therefore, it seems prudent that RDM should receive an upgrade to this spell seeing as it's one of RDM's formerly unique spells. Dispel II could remove all status enhancements(or make it remove 2-3 depending on enfeebling skill). Or please make Saboteur work on Dispel to double the effects removed. Would be neat and useful on RDM to be able to instantly remove many special enhancements on a mob in a single cast. Would make for a good addition and probably more useful than Gravity II was.

Agreed, both the spell & compatibility with Saboteur would be nice to see with those effects. I think Dispel II would be nice as a scaling removal (Enfeebling Magic/150+1=Effects removed) so with 500ish we can take off upto 4 effects with a cast.

Totally agree. I expected this on the way to 99 and would have welcomed it a thousand times more than Gravity II, which I still think was an intentional practical joke SE is still laughing about. I like both concepts of Dispel II removing more buffs and for a Saboteur Dispel to do the same.

I understand powerful mobs have to have abilities we don't but it still bothers me every time a see things spamming dispel-all, en-dispel, dispellga, cruor-buff-dispel and buff-absorb moves when the original dispel job is stuck with a level 32 spell.

I cincurr fully with this thread, however:

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Agreed, both the spell & compatibility with Saboteur would be nice to see with those effects. I think Dispel II would be nice as a scaling removal (Enhancing Magic/150+1=Effects removed) so with 500ish we can take off upto 4 effects with a cast.

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Not a biggie, but dispel is enfeebling not enhancing.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

I cincurr fully with this thread, however:



Not a biggie, but dispel is enfeebling not enhancing.

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Yeah messed that up XD had enhancing on the mind from my thread... Let me change that rq x_x;

RDM should get Dispel II that removes multiple buffs, give WHM erase II to remove multiple debuffs.

But .. we all know SE wont' listen to us.

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Originally Posted by saevel

RDM should get Dispel II that removes multiple buffs, give WHM erase II to remove multiple debuffs.

But .. we all know SE wont' listen to us.

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True, I mean they ruined enfeebling as a whole for the most part until now when they are finally going to... fix it, so they say.

Agreed.









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Finally someone suggesting a truly useful spell for RDM.

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Originally Posted by ShadowViper

Finally someone suggesting a truly useful spell for RDM.

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This was suggested before as an effect of Dispel itself, the amount being removed based on enfeebling skill. Dispel II is good, but a waste of a "supposed" limited spell slot when they could just enhance Dispel, Same with the suggested Erase II, Stoneskin II etc...

It'd be nice to have a dispel that's a dot effect one that last for 20-60 seconds after it hits.

This type of spell would be unique auto dispelling once every game tic.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

It'd be nice to have a dispel that's a dot effect one that last for 20-60 seconds after it hits.

This type of spell would be unique auto dispelling once every game tic.

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This would be kind of amazing. Something that steadily peels off the mob's buffs over time would be very handy. I would like to see this happen.

This would be a good if used as an erase effect too.

Dispella

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

This would be kind of amazing. Something that steadily peels off the mob's buffs over time would be very handy. I would like to see this happen.

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We could have a job trait or ability similar to Divine Caress...
DC raises resistance to an ailment when used with a -na spell....

We could have an ability that inhibits the future application of a buff if restored after Dispelled. For example:

AnnoyingNM uses TooFastForYuu.
AnnoyingNM gains the effect of Haste.
StillGimpedRDM uses Debilitator.
StillGimpedRDM casts Dispel.
AnnoyingNM's Haste effect disappears!**

**For a short time after, if the mob reapplies said buff, it will either a) not work (be immediately worn off) or will be a less-potent version. This could be calculated in the same fashion as samba effects, which, once applied, remain on the mob for a period of time.

One thing that I love about the ideas for RDM spells and abilities is that they are (usually) well thought out, balanced, and approved by the general community.

One thing that I hate about the ideas for RDM spells in abilities is that the FFXI dev team doesn't give a damn.

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Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

We could have a job trait or ability similar to Divine Caress...
DC raises resistance to an ailment when used with a -na spell....

We could have an ability that inhibits the future application of a buff if restored after Dispelled. For example:

AnnoyingNM uses TooFastForYuu.
AnnoyingNM gains the effect of Haste.
StillGimpedRDM uses Debilitator.
StillGimpedRDM casts Dispel.
AnnoyingNM's Haste effect disappears!**

**For a short time after, if the mob reapplies said buff, it will either a) not work (be immediately worn off) or will be a less-potent version. This could be calculated in the same fashion as samba effects, which, once applied, remain on the mob for a period of time.

One thing that I love about the ideas for RDM spells and abilities is that they are (usually) well thought out, balanced, and approved by the general community.

One thing that I hate about the ideas for RDM spells in abilities is that the FFXI dev team doesn't give a damn.

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Or do and give the spell/ability to another job instead.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Agreed, both the spell & compatibility with Saboteur would be nice to see with those effects. I think Dispel II would be nice as a scaling removal (Enfeebling Magic/150+1=Effects removed) so with 500ish we can take off upto 4 effects with a cast.

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Seriously? Maybe you want a kill spell with that too? hehe, sorry but removing 4 effects at once would make the game too easy...

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Originally Posted by Behemothx

Seriously? Maybe you want a kill spell with that too? hehe, sorry but removing 4 effects at once would make the game too easy...

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And making a mob have the power to remove 10~15+ buffs from a RDM isn't overpowered I take it? Your right, maybe it would be to easy, but hard to make a spell grow without being worthless growth. Make it 200/enfeebling magic and you end up with only 2 possible, this seems to low to be worth it because it might as well only be 2 to start with, how many things outside of NMs and beastmen really even get 2 buffs? No, you need more than 2 as well to show it improves enough to be worth improvement over time, ending at 4 seemed about the only way to work well, unless you want it 175/Enfeebling, at which point it might be able to hit 3 with nice gear. Not sure, all depends how you see it. I still think it might rise to slow for people to care and end up just being another spell we don't use, something that we don't need...

As for a kill spell, idk, I think RDM does need a power boost in nukes seeing as we are completely worthless in that department, I mean I am nicely geared on MAB and Impact still only does about 50% of a mobs life in abyssea, a T4 is only about 3/8ths of a mobs life, and half after Impact due to lowered INT. Obviously not on the same scale but still more than we have now, enfeebling is our calling and thus we should have power for it, not be where everyone else is with it.

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Originally Posted by Behemothx

Seriously? Maybe you want a kill spell with that too? hehe, sorry but removing 4 effects at once would make the game too easy...

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You've been living under SE logic too long...

Well since Enhancing Spells get bonuses from different tiers of Enhancing Magic skill, why can't Enfeebling since it's the inverse of Enhancing Magic? Make Poison's DoT scale with Enfeebling for example. At the very least, give us the option to dispel 2-3 buffs when we Dispel with Saboteur.

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Originally Posted by saevel

RDM should get Dispel II that removes multiple buffs, give WHM erase II to remove multiple debuffs.

But .. we all know SE wont' listen to us.

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o_O it's called Sacrafice and esuna..they just require thinking to use.

However Fenrir's dispel BP can remove 2 at once.. so i don't see why RDM can't get dispel II.

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Originally Posted by Vortex

However Fenrir's dispel BP can remove 2 at once.. so i don't see why RDM can't get dispel II.

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As much as I would like to agree with this logic, I have never been able to cast hastega... same with blinkga(SCH or /SCH does allow this however) and stoneskinga(again, SCH or /SCH) Phalanxga(Stopping here...) I love the idea of giving us it, but SMN cant be a reason. We have had many things only SMN gets, and so its basically left out of my reasoning sadly. : /

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Originally Posted by Behemothx

Seriously? Maybe you want a kill spell with that too? hehe, sorry but removing 4 effects at once would make the game too easy...

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Nah, DRK can already remove multiples stat effects at once every time Nether Void is up with ABS-Attribute, so precedent is already set there. Not forgetting SMN with Fenrir or a prepared BLU being able to repeatedly dispel rotating between its 3 dispel types at times.

The game has been piss-easy forever, way before folks were using Abyssea as a scapegoat for FFXI's ills. Its past time for SE to step up its game, and moves like the one you quoted and the OP forwarded would be a great place to start.

I figured since RDM is the first job to learn a dispelling ability, we ought to be the first if anything to get a bonus or upgrade to dispel. That's usually the pattern for magic(similar for Regen/Cures/Protects and nukes)

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

I figured since RDM is the first job to learn a dispelling ability, we ought to be the first if anything to get a bonus or upgrade to dispel. That's usually the pattern for magic(similar for Regen/Cures/Protects and nukes)

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Tecnically SCH learns it at the same level, we also learn (also had it before WHM originally) Regen I at the same level as WHM but it never continued past tier I.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Tecnically SCH learns it at the same level, we also learn (also had it before WHM originally) Regen I at the same level as WHM but it never continued past tier I.

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Umm~ II*

Either way I think regen was made that way because of our ability to make it last so long, could be seen as unbalanced. However at the same time I have to say Regen doesn't last very long at all when you look at it against other buffs, wouldn't mind seeing a Regen 3 someday...

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Umm~ II*

Either way I think regen was made that way because of our ability to make it last so long, could be seen as unbalanced. However at the same time I have to say Regen doesn't last very long at all when you look at it against other buffs, wouldn't mind seeing a Regen 3 someday...

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I meant at the same level as WHM, when you consider the spell itself was given to RDM specifically along with Refresh originally. (at the beginning RDM was the DoT/HoT mage)

I'm aware RDM gets Regen II, also as for Regen III, agreed! I don't see how while both WHM and SCH have higher tiers they couldn't lower Regen II and grant Regen III at the current level of Regen II.

Hey guys,

We let the development team know about your suggestion and inquiry about Dispel II. They mentioned that since Dispel's recast timer isn't considerably long, multiple buff removals may not be the best upgrade for the tier II version and from a balance perspective removing every effect from an enemy is a bit too powerful. To compare some other magic spells, Erase only removes one spell at a time, while Esuna requires Afflatus Misery to utilize its multiple debuff removal. Taking this example into consideration, what kind of effects would you like to see for Dispel II or perhaps a new magic spell?

Dispel II Removes one beneficial magic effect from the enemy and may inflict the opposite effect.

Dispel II vs. Attack Boost ---> Attack Down, etc.
Dispel II vs. Protect ---> No opposite effect, no negative status inflicted.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hey guys,

We let the development team know about your suggestion and inquiry about Dispel II. They mentioned that since Dispel's recast timer isn't considerably long, multiple buff removals may not be the best upgrade for the tier II version and from a balance perspective removing every effect from an enemy is a bit too powerful. To compare some other magic spells, Erase only removes one spell at a time, while Esuna requires Afflatus Misery to utilize its multiple debuff removal. Taking this example into consideration, what kind of effects would you like to see for Dispel II or perhaps a new magic spell?

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Ultima, Light based spell. which jobs gets? that is the open debate.

Edit: We have a spell that very strong in every element catagory except light as far as pure magic casting goes (not pet commands, smn etc) i think this would fit nicely. and altho holy 2 and banish CAN be strong with whm if used properly, they are healers, and most won't focus on pure magic damage or even have time for it.

Okipuit - how does the dev team feel about giving dispel 1 the ability to remove multiple buffs under saboteur, sort of like how esuna can remove multiple debuffs under misery. Since Sab has a 5 minute recast I don't think a multi-dispel would be too powerful.

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Originally Posted by Vortex

Ultima, Light based spell. which jobs gets? that is the open debate.

Edit: We have a spell that very strong in every element catagory except light as far as pure magic casting goes (not pet commands, smn etc) i think this would fit nicely. and altho holy 2 and banish CAN be strong with whm if used properly, they are healers, and most won't focus on pure magic damage or even have time for it.

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As much as I agree it would be on WHM probably. But it would be cool, maybe give us a use for Divine Magic again after all this time!

The whole point of Dispel II was to remove multiple status enhancements. It doesn't come across as overpowered to me because it's really just a convenience for RDM. Giving RDM some kind of specialty in terms of debuffing a target would be nice but as of now we have not one single debuff that is unique to our job. WHM has Addle. Gravity II is a joke because everyone /RDM can use Gravity I which is just as good as Gravity 2 for its intended effect(weight) and the fact that most things are immune to it doesn't help. We can't really cast enhancing spells on others and our self enhancing spells go wasted on our lousy damage dealing skills(low skill levels, no traits or decent gear for us to melee with). Did you know RDM's best body for Chant du Cygne at 99 is a level 70ish body piece from ZNMs?


It's hard to think of new enfeebles for RDM without the developers considering it 'over powered'. For starters how about

Mystify
Level 92
Lowers target's Magic Defense.

Attenuate
Level 96
Lower target's Critical Hit evasion.

Virtus
Level 98
Boosts Attack.




Also while we're on the topic of RDM and have your attention Camate, a while back when the RDM community asked about granting us Fencer(since RDMs are Fencers yet BRD and BST have the trait) the development team responded that instead of giving RDM the trait, they would instead like to expand upon RDM's melee capabilities including Fencer by giving them gear with Fencer on it. There isn't even one.

RDM can't have Cure V because we're not "Healing Specialists" yet WHM gets their own proprietary healing spells and ability likes Afflatus. What proprietary, unique enfeebling spells does RDM have? Dispel? Nope. Gravity? Subbable. Gravity II? VERY lacklaster. RDM has no unique enfeebles as an Enfeebling Specialist, but WHM the Healing Specialist also happens to get most of our enfeebles as WHM/RDM(not to mention refresh and convert).

Can't DRK absorb multiple status enhancements with "Absorb-Attri" + Nethervoid? Not only can they dispel two buffs, they get to absorb them. I don't see why Saboteur+Dispel can't do that.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

RDM can't have Cure V because we're not "Healing Specialists" yet WHM gets their own proprietary healing spells and ability likes Afflatus. What proprietary, unique enfeebling spells does RDM have? Dispel? Nope. Gravity? Subbable. Gravity II? VERY lacklaster. RDM has no unique enfeebles as an Enfeebling Specialist, but WHM the Healing Specialist also happens to get most of our enfeebles as WHM/RDM(not to mention refresh and convert).

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Remember, despite our A+ skill in enfeebling magic, SE has maintained that RDM is not an "Enfeebling" specialist... rather, a generic "fill the gap" class.

I don't play RDM, but I'm still a fan of the job, so I got a few things to say...

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Originally Posted by Asymptotic

Dispel II Removes one beneficial magic effect from the enemy and may inflict the opposite effect.

Dispel II vs. Attack Boost ---> Attack Down, etc.
Dispel II vs. Protect ---> No opposite effect, no negative status inflicted.

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Invert would be a neat spell, but I think we'd get some weird effects. Like, Berserk turning into Defender, and Defender turning into Berserk. I'd imagine Inverting Protect would just inflict Defence Down though... Or they could add new detrimental effects that don't co-exist with Pro/Shell. But then, you know, they'd get ideas like adding mobs that cast stuff like Shatterga and Meltga or something, overwriting Pro/Shell and giving players Shatter and Melt statuses (Defence Down/Magic Damage Taken+). Heh, you know this dev team would do it. But I digress.

Actually, there ya go, give RDM Shatter and Melt. They need more unique enfeebs that other jobs don't have.

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Originally Posted by pancakesandsx

Okipuit - how does the dev team feel about giving dispel 1 the ability to remove multiple buffs under saboteur, sort of like how esuna can remove multiple debuffs under misery. Since Sab has a 5 minute recast I don't think a multi-dispel would be too powerful.

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I think this should be added. Not just because of the Afflatus Misery thing either, but DRK has something similar: Under Nether Void (Also a 5 minute timer) Absorb-Attri absorbs 2 buffs. Heck, since the RDM doesn't gain any buffs either, maybe make it Dispel 3 even.

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Originally Posted by Vortex

Ultima, Light based spell. which jobs gets? that is the open debate.

Edit: We have a spell that very strong in every element catagory except light as far as pure magic casting goes (not pet commands, smn etc) i think this would fit nicely. and altho holy 2 and banish CAN be strong with whm if used properly, they are healers, and most won't focus on pure magic damage or even have time for it.

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Getting a little off topic but...

I would like Ultima to be added for sure, as I see it as a more iconic FF spell than Meteor. And while my opinion is a little biased due to the fact that I have Lv99 SCH, I feel Ultima should go to SCH. My reasons are since Ultima has always been a Black Magic spell in the FF universe, that leaves it to BLM SCH and RDM. I don't feel RDM should have it for the same reasons DRK definitely wouldn't have it; Super powerful nukes aren't meant for those jobs.

Between BLM and SCH, I just feel SCH makes more sense. SCH could really use at least one AoE elemental spell, while BLM has countless AoEs. If Ultima really does turn out to be light elemental, it wouldn't be too weird for SCH to receive it since it already has another light elemental in the form of Luminohelix (A minor detail, I know, but it's still true).

Finally though, I wouldn't want to see Ultima do as much damage as Meteor... I think it should be weaker (At least Thundaga III strength), but perhaps inflict a moderate Dia effect on the mobs it hits to go along with the DoT image SCH has. I think this also adds some risk to using the spell as you couldn't sleep the mobs after casting it, encouraging more strategic use of it. Put it on a 3 minute timer, whatever. It'll just be nice to have on SCH for the times that need a AoE nuke.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Did you know RDM's best body for Chant du Cygne at 99 is a level 70ish body piece from ZNMs?

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What body piece are you talking about? I can't remember RDM getting any body pieces from those.

EDIT: I think you're referring to Antares Harness maybe? That's actually from super-Serket. (Not that that weakens your point or anything)

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Originally Posted by Muras

Getting a little off topic but...

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

what kind of effects would you like to see for Dispel II or perhaps a new magic spell?

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Not so much, I would rather go with the question we are asked via SE rather than original topic, but yeah, either way it is and it isn't :x

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Between BLM and SCH, I just feel SCH makes more sense. SCH could really use at least one AoE elemental spell, while BLM has countless AoEs. If Ultima really does turn out to be light elemental, it wouldn't be too weird for SCH to receive it since it already has another light elemental in the form of Luminohelix (A minor detail, I know, but it's still true).

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Agreed, and actually I don't see it as a minor detail, SCH is actually the only job that can cast a light black magic in the game. Which is what Ultima is, so it does make sense, however, RDM is also very lacking in the department of magic damage imo. Ultima would be like a light version of Impact, T5 Light Nuke Damage, which would be good and powerful, but it should cost a high amount as Impact did. Its enfeebling power could be something like a Bio+Dia effect since they do not stack. Now like Impact, which has its high MP cost of 666, I think RDM should have Ultima at 500MP, with a high cast time (Fast Cast can make it faster but due to RDM's high fast cast, to much would make this unbalanced) and a high recast time (Again, because of Fast Cast balancing.)

Honestly I always have thought RDM should get Impact as its own spell, which is why I'm saying Ultima should be similar, it is enfeebling, and magic damage, and would let us have some magic power we have never actually been able to use. It also plays to RDM's style, its many styles in 1, RDM is WHM+BLM+WAR, and Impact/Ultima would be Enfeebling+Elemental+Dark/Divine magics, simply my take on it.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

We can't really cast enhancing spells on others and our self enhancing spells go wasted on our lousy damage dealing skills(low skill levels, no traits or decent gear for us to melee with). Did you know RDM's best body for Chant du Cygne at 99 is a level 70ish body piece from ZNMs?

Also while we're on the topic of RDM and have your attention Camate, a while back when the RDM community asked about granting us Fencer(since RDMs are Fencers yet BRD and BST have the trait) the development team responded that instead of giving RDM the trait, they would instead like to expand upon RDM's melee capabilities including Fencer by giving them gear with Fencer on it. There isn't even one.

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Note:Okipuit not Camate, just sayin.

While I completely agree RDM does need a melee boost, I will also give SE credit where it is due. We have in fact got alot of things for meleeing. Temper is a great addition, if it were made to target others it would not help us melee, it would let us help the other DDs melee while we get laughed at for trying. I also understand they have been lacking in giving us rounded gear, meaning good gear for all spots, especially CDC gear. However, look at this set here, it shows just how much we do have for melee, we can do it. Lv90~99 gear has been amazing for meleeing RDMs, but the fact is we also have the greatest flaw with this. Much of this gear that stands out is from VW, which we all know how drops are for that! But I do agree, we do need more and some traits would be nice, I just wanted to point out there has been massive improvements in my opinion over our past. And CDC is easily lacking in gear, for the best set I could put together when I tried is here where there is only 1 piece we have actually gotten for this in my set, since lv90. I would like to think Gain-DEX helps balance this, however I also think it is unfair RDM has been given so little gear since 90 to help our most deadly of WSs.

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Originally Posted by Muras

I don't play RDM, but I'm still a fan of the job, so I got a few things to say...



Invert would be a neat spell, but I think we'd get some weird effects. Like, Berserk turning into Defender, and Defender turning into Berserk. I'd imagine Inverting Protect would just inflict Defence Down though... Or they could add new detrimental effects that don't co-exist with Pro/Shell. But then, you know, they'd get ideas like adding mobs that cast stuff like Shatterga and Meltga or something, overwriting Pro/Shell and giving players Shatter and Melt statuses (Defence Down/Magic Damage Taken+). Heh, you know this dev team would do it. But I digress.

Actually, there ya go, give RDM Shatter and Melt. They need more unique enfeebs that other jobs don't have.

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I would see them kind of distinguishing things like Attack Bonus from Protect, Berserk, etc. Berserk/Defender don't overwrite each other, Def down coexists with shell etc.

But you Can't have STR+ and STR-
MDEF+ and MDEF-
DEF+ and DEF-
Haste and Slow etc.

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Originally Posted by Vortex

and altho holy 2 and banish CAN be strong with whm if used properly

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lolwut? Prove to me that a White Mage can constantly outdamage a Red Mage without busting out the melee. Having five more elements, a tier IV, better MP capabilities, and not having to charge gimpy spells definitely helps. Healing and support is always a risky role, since once you reach "good enough" you can just start focusing on doing other stuff, like nuking.

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On Dispel II, perhaps it should be an elementaless dispel (much like Meteor has no element)? Or perhaps it should not only remove the effect, but puts an also makes it so the same effect can't be reapplied for some time? Or it could remove the effect, then put a severe stat-down effect much like Impact, but without the huge MP cost.

Who knows? Maybe Dispel II isn't the right spell, but we'll see.