[dev1086] Dark Seal

Dark Seal

Recast time will be reduced from fifteen minutes to five.
Additional merit points will no longer reduce recast time, but instead reduce casting time for dark magic spells by an additional 10% per point.

My question here is simple; is this only under the short duration until you cast a dark magic spell and thus, effect that spell only? Or is there a secondary duration under which the reduced casting time is active.

Simply put; is this yet another adjustment too good to be true?

Why not just give Dark Celerity as a job trait already? Start it off as like 2% for Tier 1 and let it go up by that until like Tier 5 if you want it not to be unbalanced. I'm sure we'll all be happy with a 10% casting time reduction for dark magic.

If this is Square-Enix's permanent proposal of enabling us to cast dark magic faster, I would like to see Dark Seal have a duration of 1 or 2 minutes on it. It should be like Last Resort/Desperate Blows for magic, imo.

Still, I would have liked to see Dark Celerity as a possibility instead of putting Dark Magic Fast Cast on a merit ability that will only last for one cast... o_0

I hope Dark Seal has a duration on it.

Knowing SE, it will only be 1 cast.

[SIZE="7"]BALANCE[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Urteil

I hope Dark Seal has a duration on it.

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Me too, it would make more sense this way instead of having it wear off after casting one spell.

It only affects one spell after activation right now so there is no reason to believe it will change to a duration of effect.

they could have have just cut Dread Spikes/Drains casting times and give us Dark Celerity... /Sigh

any chance this will reduce recast time also... Dread Spikes :)

it most likely will affect Recast of that 1 spell as well. However DS really should have affected Potency as well(to help further combine it or switch off with Void like BLU does with Efflux and CA). Natural FC for dark magic is what we need... please don't support this "update"...

Can we get verification if Dark Seal will still only work on 1 spell?

Very likly to be 1 spell

Imo a very good update since we can have 1/5 Dark seal and get decent use out of it (aka landing proc spell in abyssea or a much needed N.Void + Drain II)

Tho if anything was to be asked is that will effect recast and if so will it break cap cause Dark seal Dread spikes would be awsome then

Greetings!

While this may not answer all of your questions, I have some info for you regarding Dark Seal.

The new effect for Dark Seal that reduces casting time for dark magic isn’t meant for spells you cast on yourself such as Dread Spikes. It was designed to be used for offensive magic that’s used against enemies. The meaning of this effect is to reduce the possibilities of being interrupted while casting during fights where you are auto-attacking.

For a dark magic fast cast, we need to look into this a bit more, but we think it would be better as a job trait if we implement it.

Based on the above, I’d like to talk about whether we should change the effect of Dark Seal from a reduction in casting time to a reduction in recast time.

In the hypothetical event that we were to change the effect of Dark Seal to reduce recast time, the effects of adding a merit point would be roughly half of if the effect were reduced casting time.

For example:
For each merit point added, a 10% reduction in dark magic casting time.
↓
For each merit point added, a 5% reduction in dark magic recast time.

Also, in the case that we revamp it to be dark magic fast cast (name pending), similar to Elemental Celerity, it would only reduce casting time and it would most likely not be able to have very high values.

The reason for this being that it will allow for constant casting of Drain and other spells and there is a concern about making it too beneficial while retaining the same dark knight firepower.

If there are enough people who wouldn’t mind the above example of changes, then the development team can look into revamping the effect of Dark Seal.

When I first read the update concerns about Dark Seal affecting the casting time of one spell... I was pretty disinterested and thought a fixed Fast Cast would be better, where the merit level determines the duration, not potency.

Dark Seal: Recast 5min. Enhances Magic Accuracy of the next Dark Magic spell cast, with no effect on potency. Dark Magic Fast Cast 10% for a duration of one additional spell per merit level.

or

Dark Seal: Recast 5min. Enhances Magic Accuracy of the next Dark Magic spell cast, with no effect on potency. Dark Magic Fast Cast 10% for a duration of an additional 20sec. per merit level.

** The above is honestly a repost from an older thread on the FFXIAH forums, but I thought I should post it here also.

Overall, if they're mostly settled on how they're changing DS, recast > cast time. /shrug

I would personally prefer Dark Magic Potency added onto Dark Seal.

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Originally Posted by Camate

If there are enough people who wouldn’t mind the above example of changes, then the development team can look into revamping the effect of Dark Seal.

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Thanks for response Camate

Being able to recast dread spike more often wouldn't be game breaking when it doesn't stop tp moves and requires a decent amount of mp.

anyway imo i don't care anymore Tactical parry, Sarclet D, 15% zanshin as muted soul augement just shows that dev team doesn't know what DRK is about or even about how it should be adjusted at LEAST Souleater Resolution as brought DRK back to were is was like 5 years ago.

As an example of how little the dev team know this.....
" possibilities of being interrupted while casting during fights where you are auto-attacking"
IS NOT AN ISSUE FOR DRK.
It that the time wasted selecting and casting the spell often out ways the benetfit of just hitting the mob


short version i'll have 1 merit in dark seal and forget the rest

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Originally Posted by Camate

For a dark magic fast cast, we need to look into this a bit more, but we think it would be better as a job trait if we implement it.

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This in particular is what would make ALL of us extremely happy, hands down. As the majority of our magic is dark based a quick casting time will make using the Abs-Spells and the like a bit more viable, as well as maintain the utility of Aspirs/Drains/Spikes. Please plug this to the devs for us! We're on our knees, clinging to our scythes and great swords in supplication! <3

As for the possibility of this being too beneficial I will say this: Very view dark knights bother casting anything because of the massive hindrance they see to their DPS. The lack of something beneficial to our largest magic ability is made a good majority a bunch of wanna be warriors with an MP pool who only think Abs-TP should be made a Job Trait. Wow end rant ...

Either way, back on Dark Seal itself: I would have thought an increase of about 20 secs or so in duration and a slight bit of potency under the effect would a good use of a 5 minute ability.

Keep the fast cast aspect as a possible job trait. For the love of Altana ... PLEASE. Job. Trait.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings!

While this may not answer all of your questions, I have some info for you regarding Dark Seal.

The new effect for Dark Seal that reduces casting time for dark magic isn’t meant for spells you cast on yourself such as Dread Spikes. It was designed to be used for offensive magic that’s used against enemies. The meaning of this effect is to reduce the possibilities of being interrupted while casting during fights where you are auto-attacking.

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I never thought being interrupted was a issue, It goes with out saying if your a player with more then two brain cells that if you time your casts in between the foes hits you can pull just about any spell a Dark Knight needs to use. I learned this minutes after i picked up my first Mage job.
This is where i would ask if the Devs play this game but at this point ill just /sigh...

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Originally Posted by Camate

For a dark magic fast cast, we need to look into this a bit more, but we think it would be better as a job trait if we implement it.

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Yeah we think so too, the Dark Knight forums are full of these comments. {Please Check it.}

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Originally Posted by Camate

Based on the above, I’d like to talk about whether we should change the effect of Dark Seal from a reduction in casting time to a reduction in recast time.

In the hypothetical event that we were to change the effect of Dark Seal to reduce recast time, the effects of adding a merit point would be roughly half of if the effect were reduced casting time.

For example:
For each merit point added, a 10% reduction in dark magic casting time.
↓
For each merit point added, a 5% reduction in dark magic recast time.

Also, in the case that we revamp it to be dark magic fast cast (name pending), similar to Elemental Celerity, it would only reduce casting time and it would most likely not be able to have very high values.

The reason for this being that it will allow for constant casting of Drain and other spells and there is a concern about making it too beneficial while retaining the same dark knight firepower.

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For each merit point added, a 10% reduction in dark magic casting time.
With Hasso up and 5 merits on this it nullifies the 50% casting time penalty while still leaving the 50% increase in recast. Seeing as we don't cast that often this would relieve the need to cancel Hasso to cast. Except for Absorb-TP which is the one spell i use more then any other and would like to keep spamming as much as i can.
But if this will conflict with the Dark Magic Fast Cast the devs are talking about then its best left as is.

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Originally Posted by Camate

If there are enough people who wouldn’t mind the above example of changes, then the development team can look into revamping the effect of Dark Seal.

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I think its best to do it in a way that it wont conflict with the Dark Magic Fast Cast the devs are talking about.

Meh if you use LR, you only need to use Hasso for the 2 minutes that LR is down unless you're 3/5.

Honestly, I would rather have a fast cast trait for Dark Knight. If there is a change to dark seal like someone mentioned, it should effect potency instead. What I would find ideal is maybe say a fast cast trait for elemental magic to lower the cast and recast, lower the casting and recast of absorb stat spells across the board, and add a darkness based spell that's quick or instant to cast with maybe a 5 minute cool down. I think it would be nice like a spell like Kaustra just without the DOT feature that could be effected by potency. Least this way would ignore the issue of having recast times lowered for drain and aspir spells.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Meh if you use LR, you only need to use Hasso for the 2 minutes that LR is down unless you're 3/5.

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Pretty sure the STR and ACC aren't hurting you any from keeping Hasso up full time especially with the rank 24-26 weapons DRKs are running around with now.

I'd rather ask questions, but I'm not sure a dialogue is possible in this situation.

First: Dark Magic specific Fastcast trait is an awesome idea.

Second:

If I get what you're saying here, if it's either/or for casting time reduction, or recast reduction:

If the alteration to Dark Seal is 'Casting Time Down %' and not 'Fastcast', I will take the 'Recast Reduction' instead.

If the alteration to Dark Seal is 'Fastcast' and not 'Casting Time Down %', I'll take the Fastcast.

Most dark spells are already fast, using Dark Seal to reduce their casting time is adding the delay of using the job ability in order to reduce the casting time. In some cases, it might even take longer to reduce the cast time than to just cast the spell.

Lowering the recast time however, I find to be more beneficial.

As another poster said, an increase in potency would be preferred, but I am not sure they can do that really with Nether Void in the Drk arsenal... They might decide to "Balance!" both job abilities out of existence...

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Originally Posted by Akutenshi

Honestly, I would rather have a fast cast trait for Dark Knight. If there is a change to dark seal like someone mentioned, it should effect potency instead. What I would find ideal is maybe say a fast cast trait for elemental magic to lower the cast and recast, lower the casting and recast of absorb stat spells across the board, and add a darkness based spell that's quick or instant to cast with maybe a 5 minute cool down. I think it would be nice like a spell like Kaustra just without the DOT feature that could be effected by potency. Least this way would ignore the issue of having recast times lowered for drain and aspir spells.

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Dark Celerity, not Fast Cast.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings!

While this may not answer all of your questions, I have some info for you regarding Dark Seal.

The new effect for Dark Seal that reduces casting time for dark magic isn’t meant for spells you cast on yourself such as Dread Spikes. It was designed to be used for offensive magic that’s used against enemies. The meaning of this effect is to reduce the possibilities of being interrupted while casting during fights where you are auto-attacking.

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I've never assumed this would be used for Dread Spikes anyway, so no problems here.

Quote:

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For a dark magic fast cast, we need to look into this a bit more, but we think it would be better as a job trait if we implement it.

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Yes! YES! Please Look into it! I'm just about begging the Dev team for it by now, because we the DRK community have been on their knees for it since the idea was even brought to the table. To be denied it at this point just shreds that tiny bit of hope we have for seeing the job improve in direction the job should go.

Quote:

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Based on the above, I’d like to talk about whether we should change the effect of Dark Seal from a reduction in casting time to a reduction in recast time.

In the hypothetical event that we were to change the effect of Dark Seal to reduce recast time, the effects of adding a merit point would be roughly half of if the effect were reduced casting time.

For example:
For each merit point added, a 10% reduction in dark magic casting time.
↓
For each merit point added, a 5% reduction in dark magic recast time.

---

I wouldn't mind seeing it going into the latter. An additional 5% reduction in dark magic recast would stack more efficiently with Dark Magic Fast Cast, including other forms of casting time reduction. Most Dark Knights like myself don't put more than 1 merit point into Dark Seal, so that we can focus more of our Group 2 Merits into Desperate Blows and Diabolic Eye. Therefore, we believe this is not a big issue.

Quote:

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Also, in the case that we revamp it to be dark magic fast cast (name pending), similar to Elemental Celerity, it would only reduce casting time and it would most likely not be able to have very high values.

The reason for this being that it will allow for constant casting of Drain and other spells and there is a concern about making it too beneficial while retaining the same dark knight firepower.

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An ideal maximum on dark magic fast cast as a job trait would be about 20-25%. If it becomes the case where Dark Seal reduces casting time, and you do give us the Job Trait for Dark Magic Fast Cast, then perhaps lowering the casting time for Dark Seal to 2% per merit would help make the stacked effect not feel so strong?

For a DRK that puts 5 points into Dark Seal, This would put the combination of both the Job Trait and Dark Seal at a stacked 30-35% every 3 minutes. As I've said though, I would find this more agreeable: For each merit point added, a 5% reduction in dark magic recast time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings!


Also, in the case that we revamp it to be dark magic fast cast (name pending), similar to Elemental Celerity, it would only reduce casting time and it would most likely not be able to have very high values.

The reason for this being that it will allow for constant casting of Drain and other spells and there is a concern about making it too beneficial while retaining the same dark knight firepower.

l.

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yet BLM with Elemental celerity and the Magian Staves can exploit much faster magic spam and dmg then we can ever hope to unleash with drain/II

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Originally Posted by Raucent

yet BLM with Elemental celerity and the Magian Staves can exploit much faster magic spam and dmg then we can ever hope to unleash with drain/II

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I don't get the post.

He already said it'd only be casting speed, so even casting Drain and even Dread Spikes 50% faster it'd hardly be OP. I could understand both Casting and Recast time, but just casting time makes no sense.

Drk magic fast cast above anything else. As has been stated here being interrupted is not a problem for casting darkmagic, so recast would be cool.

We are actually talking with community reps about DRK issues, woot!

Again, Any DRK that has Dark Seal merited more than once should be reducing it to 1/5

Just sayin'

How is this even CLOSE to being OP?
Can you please just put +% potency on Dark Seal instead and give us the dark magic trait.

It seems that the idea of "overpowered" varies between jobs, the bar for DRK is hardly above the floor.




We don't have "fire power" to be using in conjunction with dark seal, we don't have:

Darkness Based Nukes / Drain III etc.

There's already an ability that does this its called Manifestation and it allows you to do "overpowered" things every 48 seconds, 50% recast AND 50% fastcast. How does one spell every 3~ minutes even compare?


Drain II or Drain I does not do significant damage.
Drain II/I get resisted easily and are useless versus many families/types of mobs.

If we had some actual good spells worth casting (you won't even give us Bio III, the closest thing to a Dark magic Nuke) then what are you even talking about?!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Camate

The reason for this being that it will allow for constant casting of Drain and other spells and there is a concern about making it too beneficial while retaining the same dark knight firepower.

If there are enough people who wouldn’t mind the above example of changes, then the development team can look into revamping the effect of Dark Seal.

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There is no Dark Knight firepower when it comes to spells.

There is no Dark Knight firepower when it comes to spells.

There is no Dark Knight firepower when it comes to spells.

There is no Dark Knight firepower when it comes to spells.

There is no Dark Knight firepower when it comes to spells.

A spell with low base damage, useless vs multiple monster types, long recast, high casting time != overly beneficial, overpowered spell.

We don't even have Drain III.

For the love of god:

There is no Dark Knight firepower when it comes to spells.

Please like this so the Dev - team might understand.

Keep the belligerence to a minimal, if you please. They've asked for constructive thought, not a cranky spiel. I can understand your frustration but that approach hasn't and will not work, above all it won't be condoned here. I refuse to permit this to devolve into another whiny 'bitch-fest' thread. (pardon the term) Thank you <3

I do agree, however, Dark Knights have no dark magic 'fire power'. If Camate is referring to the glaring hole that is the elemental magic we have access to well ... I'll be on the floor laughing with you. A dark's MP pool isn't well suited, the mp cost does not facilitate expansive use and the casting time connected to elemental magic itself is abysmal ( thank for the attempt with the Abyss Burgeonet +2, btw but WHY such a horrid slot?).

Also, dark based nukes? I'll leave that to a different thread at a different time. In fact I'll create one.

Continuing, this is why we'd be terribly grateful for a Dark Celerity type trait for what we, the DRK community, have focused upon as our most important spells which we feel falls in line what a Dark Knight is and -does-. This is why the previously stated adjustment to Dark Seal displeased us so greatly. If you would shorten our casting times with Celerity trait, I'd like to see the -recast time option with Dark Seal merits. At a 3 minute timer it certainly won't unbalance anything because the dark magic we tend to cast consist of barely a handful of spells. Please continue to take our thoughts and our more REASONABLE requests into consideration.

1. Already made that thread, so have other people, countless times.

2. These points have been made time and time again in reasonable fashions.

3. Things like the abyss burgeonet just foster animosity as the thinking behind them is so short sighted it hurts ones brain.

4. When SE says things like "DRK" firepower in relation to spells, I don't really understand how all of you just don't blow a gasket. That's like them saying SMN melee is too strong and are being careful to balance it.

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Originally Posted by Urteil

T
There is no Dark Knight firepower when it comes to spells.

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Fact.

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Originally Posted by Geabrielle

Keep the belligerence to a minimal,

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not being funny we have tryed time and time agian just for SE to give some feed back on there plan for DRK w/ there spell and had almost none consider they keep saying....

We want DRK to use magic more.

so yea if he's angry that's the reason

As a side note it always has felt SE has treated DRK when it comes to balance that the job had chanispell full time and a infintie pool of mp so they take care cause they think "O yea if DRK could do drain for 500 that + there melee = too much" when the real fact is if drain did 500 we'd acully lose overall DMG

I kinda get annoyed how stingy SE is with drains when you look at DRG with the abilty to spam cure IV-V on it's self for little to no effort

The reason DRG is getting it's due now is because not once have they had a raging screaming fit.
Also, frustration is reasonable but we've noticed crying has gotten us nowhere and it's time to change direction, no?

Back on topic!

Any other suggestions for Dark Seal if they do give Dark Knight dark magic fast cast?

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Originally Posted by Geabrielle

The reason DRG is getting it's due now is because not once have they had a raging screaming fit.

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DRG has always and i mean always had updates to address issues with it's job.

Didn't work in endgame -- > Angon
SAMs and WAR out DDing with polearm --> Drakesbane
Hurting a little bit in abyssea --> 2 more jump which give DRG insane tp
Issues with Wyvens in VW --> Smiting breath and Steady wing

not saying DRG didn't have a hard time like DRK least DRG had update consistant to the job and improved it.

DRK started off as a great job pre ToAU

Absorbs aren't worth casting -> we get reduce cast times and there still not worth casting.
DRK can finnally compete w/ Kclub DRKs --> haste cap placed in
Guillotine/Spinning slash doesn't compare to Geeko,Penta,Drakesbane,Raging rush---> Insurgency ( a weaker WS)
not to mention SE always mentioned kclub DRKs as overpowered meaning none kclub DRKs got punished (SE nerf on alot of NMs)


Then in abyssea we brang nothing least DRG could pump out DMG DRK was literally trash (there were worse jobs hit by abyssea)
But stuff like tactical parry and Teir III and occult acumen which all added something but were never adjust to be useful for DRK
Not to mention while we had been struggling before we all needed to get Torcleaver just so we could do the min agian.

Finally we hit VW and we were given Scarlet D. another useless addtion.

Now not saying what SE has added hasn't been all been junk.

Endark, S.soul, 3 min Last resort and Resolution these things have brang DRK back to were it was pre ToAU maybe even a little further making a competive DD again and i am greatful but most these are imo fixes that should of been added maybe 2 years ago (maybe not the LR thing).

our magic is something we have been begging for SE to make worth using as a large part of DRK for a long time we'd even be happy with long cast times or w/e as long as the effects are worth it.

I also believe DRK should have more of an abilty to restore them selves via Drains by SE making them more potent or easier to buff and adding Drain III meaning we'd have a really usful use for our magic at last well we have stun which is the best spell ever added to DRK.

as a response to stun didn't the Devs say they wanted DRK to regain the role as the dominant stunner? yet doesn't BLU kinda trump us there

oop almost forgot we can prolly forget Drain III they are afraid to reduce our recast times for fear of Drain/II being overpowered so imagine their fear with Drain/II/III

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

DRG has always and i mean always had updates to address issues with it's job.

Didn't work in endgame -- > Angon
SAMs and WAR out DDing with polearm --> Drakesbane
Hurting a little bit in abyssea --> 2 more jump which give DRG insane tp
Issues with Wyvens in VW --> Smiting breath and Steady wing

not saying DRG didn't have a hard time like DRK least DRG had update consistant to the job and improved it.

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I could explain the philosophy behind so many noteworthy updates by quoting a long time DRG friend of mine, on the day Angon was released. "Angon, hmm, defense down. I have to buy ammo slot pieces and I still don't get to do much endgame as DRG so these are inventory -1, but we'll make it work. Thank you SE, may we have another?"

I remember this clearly because I was having a raging anger fest about not being able to take advantage of my MP pool and was on the verge of just going to warrior. He reminded me then, that I was also a BLM and that I know how to manage my MP and cast timing so why not apply those to DRK. In other words he told me to Make It Work.

I didn't find the abs-spells at all useless. In fact I make use of them a great deal still. Abs-Attri is still my friend especially on some particularly annoying VW mobs.

K-club DRKs ... if I say I wanted to behead them with their own rusty scythes would this be a bad thing? I blame THEM for being forced into BLM for 5 years for endgame events. Mainly because I outright refused to get one, save to freaking sell it.

I had no problems with damage in Abyssea.

To keep this brief, there are a lot of things I agree with you on and some others not so much. But I do believe this chance to get dark seal how we want it, with the possibility of a celerity trait is a good thing. Until then we have to try to make what we have work even if it sucks - WHILE asking for those sucky things to be tweaked a little to something better. That's all I'm saying and trying to do so respectfully.

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Originally Posted by Geabrielle

I could explain the philosophy behind so many noteworthy updates by quoting a long time DRG friend of mine, on the day Angon was released. "Angon, hmm, defense down. I have to buy ammo slot pieces and I still don't get to do much endgame as DRG so these are inventory -1, but we'll make it work. Thank you SE, may we have another?"
.
....other stuff.....

I had no problems with damage in Abyssea.

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Angon for some DRG was just a 1 ja thing but the fact was if ya have a DRG there for angon he can be DDing and other things meaning while angon may of been the soul reason DRG got into an endgame event least your there and you could add to the DD as well meaning you were there and not just told LOLDRG go WHM or SAM plz.

So you had no problem with MNKs,WARs,DRGs,SAMs,PUPs,DNC,BLUs... basically every DD having a much better DMG potential than you thats the same with me i just /MNKed and countertanked the world still it was an issue which was never fixed but abyssea over now so it's not a issue i was just saying.

We need more potency for our drains/absorbs, and i keep suggesting Potency addition to Dark Seal/additional merit :<

I'll take potency if they take the suggestion. It would be a really good paring with the accuracy.

Also, nope I had no problem with any other DD doing their thing. As long as what we were targeting died that was all we cared about. If I wasn't contributing anything in the way of numbers I never woulda been asked to come DRK - I'd have been confined to BLM RDM or even THF.

Didn't we have this discussion back on 2005-2006?

I think bringing this up half a decade later is mainly to get players onto the forum. There's no way they didn't think about adding a dark/holy damage spell lineup in game. No way. Secondly they know all our firepower comes from WS and not t3 nukes as we'd be forced to lower damage and mp and waste time so we can half resist stuff. Just give us faster casting ffs.