Tanking Discussion, not a "VS" forum

So I've noticed that in the time this forum has been up the only threads to appear are talking about how 1 job beats others as a tank, which as it stands is rather close minded.

Personally I'd like to see some more talk about taking in general and less about why people think certain jobs are better than others for whatever miss-conceived reason.

All these statements refer to outside of abyssea, inside abyssea the rules are drastically different. In abyssea its mainly all about maximizing damage and having enough healing.

Not to call u dumb or say your topic is mute, but there are no miss-conceived notions on why certain jobs are better tanks than others. There are factual things that back this up. Nin is best on low defense and mainly non magic based mobs just cause of the FACTS that nin isnt the greatest damage dealer so when a mob has lower defense we can increase our damage output and still have other tools for keeping hate. NIN sucks with most magic based mobs cause they just eat our shadows to fast and we have no survivability at that point.

PLD is best for super hard hitting mobs and magic based mobs because they dont have to worry about shadows to mitigate damage and cause of all the -PDT and -MDT gear they have at their disposal.

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Personally I'd like to see some more talk about taking in general and less about why people think certain jobs are better than others for whatever miss-conceived reason.

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If you don't know how to tank or the fundamentals of tanking by now, us talking about it is not going to help you.

Because most people look at the roles of jobs in one dimensional view almost everything. If one job does it better then to the community, it's assumed that that job is the only one suited. Anything less is undesirable or "gimp", doesn't matter if they're capable or not.

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Originally Posted by KataroCerb

Not to call u dumb or say your topic is mute, but there are no miss-conceived notions on why certain jobs are better tanks than others. There are factual things that back this up. Nin is best on low defense and mainly non magic based mobs just cause of the FACTS that nin isnt the greatest damage dealer so when a mob has lower defense we can increase our damage output and still have other tools for keeping hate. NIN sucks with most magic based mobs cause they just eat our shadows to fast and we have no survivability at that point.

PLD is best for super hard hitting mobs and magic based mobs because they dont have to worry about shadows to mitigate damage and cause of all the -PDT and -MDT gear they have at their disposal.

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Firstly while I agree that certain jobs have the POTENTIAL to be better tanking certain mobs than other jobs, that does not mean that everyone of that job beats anyone else playing another job, simply due to the fact that people's gear will always differ from person to person (and you can't just assume that EVERY paladin out there has phys- MDT- MDB- and other such things capped, because as sad as it is the majority of players in this game have fairly lackluster gear, and also lack the skill to be able to use the right gear properly.). Hence the point of my post is to talk about general tanking gear, strategies, and providing insightful knowledge on how to properly tank, and use said gear, rather then saying "Oh well for this fight PLD is better so if you have PLD then you can win." because frankly that just brings about the notion that an AF geared PLD can beat out a perfectly good NIN on a certain fight simply because he's a PLD.

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Originally Posted by KataroCerb

If you don't know how to tank or the fundamentals of tanking by now, us talking about it is not going to help you.

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The point of this thread isn't for myself but for people in general. Frankly I shy away from any forum when asking any question about FFXI mechanics in general since 99% of the replies you're going to get are people re-spouting crap that they read from some persons testing that was done forever and a day ago. I prefer to test out and come up with solutions to problems for myself, and as such don't really have any need to hear other people talk about it, nor do i require any help in that area.

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Originally Posted by Soranika

Because most people look at the roles of jobs in one dimensional view almost everything. If one job does it better then to the community, it's assumed that that job is the only one suited. Anything less is undesirable or "gimp", doesn't matter if they're capable or not.

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Have to admit that's fairly accurate. Sad but true.

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Originally Posted by KataroCerb

Nin is best on low defense and mainly non magic based mobs just cause of the FACTS that nin isnt the greatest damage dealer so when a mob has lower defense we can increase our damage output and still have other tools for keeping hate.

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I must have missed the part where other hate tools were remotely relevant in situations where you can achieve decent damage output.

Replies in no particular order to post or person who posted lol...

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I must have missed the part where other hate tools were remotely relevant in situations where you can achieve decent damage output.

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Warcry, Berserk, Defender, Yonin all give you more hate. Yonin on a more useful basis, but the other ones are good spike hate tools. On high defense mobs ninja has no real chance cause we will never be able to keep up with the DD in terms of hate giving abilities or just flat out damage. If your fighting a super high defense mob and doing very little damage you have to rely on gear and abilities to keep hate, where with lower defense mobs you can use those things as backup in case some idiot DD doesn't understand the concept of hate control keeps just spamming WS and eating the mages MP

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Because most people look at the roles of jobs in one dimensional view almost everything. If one job does it better then to the community, it's assumed that that job is the only one suited. Anything less is undesirable or "gimp", doesn't matter if they're capable or not.

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People have tried tanking with other jobs and also have tried using jobs like nin as a main DD. In the long run it just doesnt work cause there are jobs that can do those tasks more efficiently. Certain jobs have certain roles to maximize the groups potential instead of holding them back because someone wants to experiment. People experimented over 8 years ago to see what jobs do what best and that why we use certain jobs for certain things today. I want you to remember that WAR/MNKs used to tank everything till Zilart was released soooooooo ya, we have evolved from that point.

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Firstly while I agree that certain jobs have the POTENTIAL to be better tanking certain mobs than other jobs, that does not mean that everyone of that job beats anyone else playing another job, simply due to the fact that people's gear will always differ from person to person (and you can't just assume that EVERY paladin out there has phys- MDT- MDB- and other such things capped, because as sad as it is the majority of players in this game have fairly lackluster gear, and also lack the skill to be able to use the right gear properly.). Hence the point of my post is to talk about general tanking gear, strategies, and providing insightful knowledge on how to properly tank, and use said gear, rather then saying "Oh well for this fight PLD is better so if you have PLD then you can win." because frankly that just brings about the notion that an AF geared PLD can beat out a perfectly good NIN on a certain fight simply because he's a PLD.

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I agree with a lot of what you said and i never said job was the only factor in who tanks what. In the 8 plus years I have played this game, NIN being my main job the entire time, i have met plenty of crappy PLDs that I could own for hate, but then there is the DD to worry about, and when you cant keep your enmity spiked enough to mitigate all the damage they are doing you just cant hold hate and the party is screwed simply by the fact that you have now lost control of the party. And on the gear part, it is STUPID simple to have good gear now that abyssea is around so that is no excuse for anyone who plays a tank job. Four people can get just about ALL the af3+1 seals you want and for the most part that gear is good for every job. Yes the +2 is better but the +1s are nice.

Yes other jobs CAN tank things but there are 2 jobs that are simply BEST SUITED to do so. So i don't see where discussing what other jobs can sort of tank is going to get us.

You can't discuss tactics if you don't first decide what job would be best for the situation, right?

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Originally Posted by KataroCerb

Warcry, Berserk, Defender, Yonin all give you more hate. Yonin on a more useful basis, but the other ones are good spike hate tools.

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I was ignoring Yonin on the assumption that you were talking about abilities generating spike hate. All such abilities are purely VE, meaning that it would have been more productive for you to simply keep meleeing due to JA delay. Abilties that actually affect your DPS etc are a different matter.

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On high defense mobs

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...my point would be inapplicable because I specifically stated "situations where you can achieve decent damage output."

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Yes other jobs CAN tank things but there are 2 jobs that are simply BEST SUITED to do so.

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I can think of a lot more than 2 jobs that are strong tanks... probably better tanks than the ones you have in mind in certain situations.

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Originally Posted by Nightfyre

I was ignoring Yonin on the assumption that you were talking about abilities generating spike hate. All such abilities are purely VE, meaning that it would have been more productive for you to simply keep meleeing due to JA delay. Abilties that actually affect your DPS etc are a different matter.

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Although all of those abilities are VE, having enmity gear on you while using those particular JA's during the fight (not specifically for hate) helps in pulling hate when you can't melee. For example Odium Ring and Mermaid Earrings when recasting shadows (when you can't melee) or when using a JA for the bonus that it gives - such as Issekigan, Beserk etc (just using NIN/WAR in these examples since this job seems to be the topic of discussion).

Of course you don't *need* enmity gear when using this, but I did notice that once VE was capped, while using enmity gear and performing normal JA's / Spells for pure functionality point (like recasting shadows), it turns the mob's head from time to time at the end of the cast while you have not been swinging for a few hits and the THF has..

So yes in a way they can be seen as counterproductive but if used in a functional way - as if you would in a normal fight (Warcry before a ws etc), it does give you that second inbetween attack rounds that the mob is facing you.

Tanking main topic. Just very happy my war has a -50% physical damage set now. Maybe I can actually use my Ukko's Fury without dieing in 10 seconds outside of aby on tough mobs. All I need is a whm that is paying attention lol. Also building a -md set, not sure how much -md I can get on my war, if someone has an item build I would love to see it. Please make the set items that are resonable to get.

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Originally Posted by ApocalypseNow

Also building a -md set, not sure how much -md I can get on my war, if someone has an item build I would love to see it. Please make the set items that are resonable to get.

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Dark rings with -6 MDT each on them from konschtat [A]. Merman's earrings -2 each. Twilight torque for -5. These are for all jobs.

War can then use nierenshutz for -3, combining to give you -24% MDT, added to shellra V's -27%, you're capped. War can also use askar feet for the last 2%.

Now for magic def bonus. Lamia mantle +1 for 4, then pretty much just the Iron Ram set and replace hands with medb's gauntlets.

Don't bother gearing for MDB imo, the amount you get in gear is not worth it. You'd be better off using merman's mittens/colossus mantle and putting haste/pdt in the other slots.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Don't bother gearing for MDB imo, the amount you get in gear is not worth it. You'd be better off using merman's mittens/colossus mantle and putting haste/pdt in the other slots.

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Gear swap for casts?

MDB gear isn't worth the -invo for small improvements even for the gear swap, you're better off keeping in haste gear. Exceptions are shadow ring and Nocturnus mail.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

MDB gear isn't worth the -invo for small improvements even for the gear swap, you're better off keeping in haste gear. Exceptions are shadow ring and Nocturnus mail.

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Fair enough. Commenting on your gear suggestion: The rings/earrings don't offer as good DD stats as hands and backpiece slots. Also, the belt and neck are both -dt, adding to your -pdt build (and you can also get -pdt on the same dark rings). There's no point losing Atheling mantle and w/e war's use on hands when you can cap -mdt elsewhere.

I forgot Tjukurrpa exists as well honestly, why do I keep thinking Merman's in the first place. You can cap haste in MDT set without the hands slot if you really wanted to, or just ignore the decimal percentage haste blitz gives.

EDIT: I suppose the exception is if Restraint is up.

I think you all may be missing the point.

Leaving aside whether anything insightful comes up in OF threads, if I post in a discussion of SAM or DNC tanking, I am interested in discussing SAM or DNC tanking. I am not interested in hearing about how NIN or MNK is a better tank, because for one thing I already know that, and for another I could read or start a thread on NIN or MNK tanking if I wanted to discuss those, and finally NIN or MNK being better doesn't have anything to do with a discussion of how SAM or DNC might best use the tools inherent to those jobs.