Dear Square Enix,
With regards to all the new weapon skills, they are beyond expectation animation wise and damage wise. Quite frankly, I have a hard time critiquing them as is, but I would like to request one thing: Please add Exenterator to Puppetmaster .
I'm sure this is seemingly a debatable topic, but there is a couple things that might back up my opinion.
1.Puppetmaster is one of the only job that do not get two or more new LV.96 weapon skills.
2 Puppetmaster has C- Dagger Skill which is nearly at the cut off to obtain the new weapon skills which is C+.
3. Puppetmaster has gotten Aeolian Edge (which I've parsed for 1000~1500 dmg outside of abyssea with my Magic Attack Bonus set.) <-- I only state this because it proves that daggers aren't completely useless to the job. (The weapon skill is only obtainable through subbing /dnc and /nin.)
4. Puppetmaster can use a lot of the higher level dagger includin the new Haste Dagger Oynos Knife. Using this along with M-Kris makes a nice set up ihat actually has pretty good dps.
5. Puppetmaster has a wide variety of armor choices so nearly maximizing the AGI+ Modifier on Extenterator wouldn't be very difficult so that we can do decent damage.
6. This weapon skill could be another formidable option for Puppetmasters who would like to deviate from the typical H2H set up.
Please consider adding this weapon skill to Puppetmaster... There is truely nothing you can lose by doing so.
New Weapon Skill Extenterator (Dagger) for Puppetmaster.
Printable View
-
12-02-2011, 08:12 AMShinron-PUPNew Weapon Skill Extenterator (Dagger) for Puppetmaster.
-
12-02-2011, 10:10 AMTsumomo
I don't think its really needed though, the only time i use a dagger on pup is for lights in abyssea.
Oh and DNC only gets 1 of the new WS's and i don't think the amount of WS's that a job gets based on weapon type really matters as far as reasons for them to get it or not to get it.
And another note, all the jobs that get the WS's have atleast C+ in that weapon type. -
12-02-2011, 02:44 PMSpiritreaverWell written and you make your case. And like you say at the end, SE can lose nothing from letting PUP use the WS. Only thing is by that same token, PUP doesn't really need the new dagger WS either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP
Off the top of my head, PUP is one of the few jobs who have a Mythic WS that is on the same lvl as an Empy WS. In fact PUP Mythic WS is being reported as trouncing the new merit HTH WS as well. Stringing Pummel is that good and is only getting sexier as PUP HTH skill rises.
And that's just taking the Master's dmg into account like the rest of Vana'diel likes to do. Throw in the excellent dmg from the Automatons and blam!
Its always good to get new stuff, but i just don't see the need for PUP to be added to the list of Exenterator users. It wouldn't hurt anything, but i'd rather that the devs work on say more Automaton WSs for us than give us a WS on a weapon that we so rarely use.
Just my two cents -
12-02-2011, 02:55 PMArconI beg to differ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritreaver
It's "add".Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP
No, DNC also only gets one WS, this one ironically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP
No, all WS can only be used by jobs that have C+ or higher skill rating in that weapon class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP
It's Aeolian Edge, and PUP didn't get it. They can only use it if they have the skill required and RDM, THF, BRD, RNG, NIN or DNC as their sub job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP
Mercurial Kris is a Lv50 dagger. And more than half of all the jobs can use Oynos Knife. BRD can use Rune Chopper, you don't see them going around Great Axing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP
It's AGI modded, not DEX. And attribute differences by job amount to very little overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP
There's nothing to lose from adding Ukko's Fury to Summoners, doesn't mean it makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP
Also, it would have been enough to post this in one forum, namely this one. -
12-02-2011, 03:19 PMSpiritreaver
@Arcon
He typed up a good post and i found his train of thought easy to follow. Were there some typos? Sure. Did he get some of the particulars wrong? Sure. But i was able to get the gist of what he was trying to say.
It is possible to remark constructively about an idea that you don't share you know? Definitely possible to do so w/o the needless nitpicking as well imo. -
12-02-2011, 06:10 PMAlhanelemExcept the case is not made.Quote:
Well written and you make your case. And like you say at the end, SE can lose nothing from letting PUP use the WS. Only thing is by that same token, PUP doesn't really need the new dagger WS either.
"PUP is the only job that doesn't get X number of this." Why does this matter? Why does every job have to have an equal amount of everything? Every job is different, their needs are different, we don't need equal quantities of everything.
PUP has poor skill with daggers; PUP also has no traits or abilities which enhance dagger combat, especially weapon skills. It's extremely rare to nearly nonexistent that there's a situation where daggers would be more effective than hand to hand.
PUP should not be given this weapon skill nor any other reason to use daggers. It simply should not use them, except to proc !!, ever, period. Dagger setups on PUP are NEVER "good DPS wise." I've never ever seen a dagger setup outperform a HTH setup. There is simply no reason to do it.
PUP is already far enough behind other jobs when using its most optimal setup. Why anyone would want to make that gap worse by using inferior weapons is beyond me. This is completely different from other oddball setups such as melee SMN with staff, because that can actually increase a SMN's dmg output (though it's still not anywhere near good enough to be accepted) because PUP's performance is virtually never increased by using a dagger.
Dagger weaponskills in general are terrible without sneak attack (which is only especially helpful on crit WS and on THF main), dual wield, and/or the special abilities used by DNC. PUP must sub NIN THF or DNC
I don't think C- even gets the requisite skill at level 96, please correct me if this is an error though.
Sorry to be so blunt, but we don't need this, there is no reason to want it and it would be a massive waste of merits if you did get it for PUP. -
12-02-2011, 06:27 PMKristal
It seems the skill cutoff is based on the lvl 96 C+ skill cap of 357, but all that means is that PUP wouldn't be able to unlock it until lv. 98.
There's only a 10 skill different between C- and C+, which is easily covered by skill merit upgrades or even a single piece of gear, so I agree that any C- skill and above should be able to unlock it. (As long as they have the 357 skill natively.)
DNC only having 1 WS is not surprising, as they only have one combat skill above D, unless SE decides to drop a bomb on us with Throwing weaponskills.
Extra jobs on WS based on skill 357+ and level 96+ :
Exenterator (Dagger) : DRK (97), PLD (98), PUP (98)
Requiescat (Sword) : BRD (98), DRG (98), NIN (97)
Tachi: Shoha (Great Katana) : NIN (98)
Realmrazer (Club) : DRK (98)
Apex Arrow (Archery) : THF (98)
Last Stand (Marksmanship) : NIN (97) -
12-03-2011, 02:48 AMAlhanelem
None of your listed jobs can obtain the requisite skill AT the requisite level, that is why they are not included. It doesn't matter that they can obtain it with merits or at a later level.
All those jobs skill in a weapon is low enough that they shouldn't ever be using those weapons unless a special situation (e.g. procs, and the new weapon skills wont likely be added as procs to existing content) requires it. Thus, even in those situations, the jobs do not need these WS. -
12-03-2011, 04:56 AMxbobx
Alhanelem, keep in mind that pup's h2h and dagger were originally the same rating, or very close to same rating. So who knows what SE was thinking there.
-
12-03-2011, 05:48 AMShinron-PUPSorry. Hopefully I can atone for all my mis-spelling, but I was a bit tired and just wanted to get the point across and go to bed. Anyhow, Puppetmaster does get Aeolian "Edge". I've had it for a while now, and if you don't believe I'm correct then please do look into it. Also comparing this weapon skill to Summoner getting Ukko's Fury is a bit of a over exaggeration when taking into consideration the fact that we actually have skill in the given weapon and it wouldn't be game breaking. I completely agree that this weapon skill truely isn't necessary, but I believe, at this point, getting anything added to puppetmaster would be only an asset to us rather than a fall back (Unless the add another bug to the Automaton lol). And yes, I realise that M-Kris is a Lv. 50 weapon, but my point of stating this was with the concept that if we have dagger skill and actual feasable weapons that could deal out a good amount of damage, we might as well take advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
-
12-03-2011, 07:35 AMSpiritreaverFigured as much about you being sleepy or something, some of us got your point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP
Gotta say though, 'just because' just doesn't seem reason enough for PUP to be added to this WS. Brings to mind the whole Asuran Fists for PUP argument imo. -
12-03-2011, 07:50 AMShinron-PUP
I agree, and now that you mention asuran fists, I almost lose all hope that this weapon skill will be added lol. Square Enix is notorious for neglecting our "wants" when it comes to Puppetmaster. Anyhow, Shijin Spiral is seemingly becoming unimpressive, expecially when using Verethragna. It rarely exceeds damage of Stringing Pummel, and does not do light/dark skillchains with our automaton, or with itself, incomparison to victory smite; therefore, Extenterator might be a blessing although it probably won't rival any damage of a H2H weaponskill.
Also, thanks for having my back Spiritreaver >.>. I was getting butchered... wish I would have known I made so many mistakes earlier ^.^b. -
12-03-2011, 03:00 PMAlhanelemThey were never the same rating, and PUP was specifically described as using hand to hand, which is why hand to hand's skill was raised and daggers' was not.Quote:
Originally Posted by xbobx
PUP HTH was C+ and later raised to B+
PUP dagger is C- -
12-03-2011, 08:40 PMDfoleyTired and typos aside you dont have a valid point, and that is the biggest issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP
1) Pup does not get aeolian edge, i have looked into it, and pup natively only gets wasp sting, shadow stich, gust slash, and energy steal. If you have aeolian edge, it is due to subing nin or dnc (common among pups who dont have a perma whitemage). However I always run pup/war for 99% of the things i do and I am looking right at my ws screen atm and there is no aeolian edge.
2) This really is no different then the level 71 ws. EG Evisceration, another dagger ws pup does not get. "While other jobs can obtain the required 230 Dagger skill, they will be unable to use Evisceration."
3) Daggers are pathetic damage. There is no such thing as a decent DD (any job) using daggers. My pup will do 2-3x the damage of my theif any day of the week. Average hits in the 150 range, crits for 250-350.... vs average hits in the 67-110 range, crits for 150-200. On top of that, we would have to sub nin for dual wield and use inferior daggers. Pup does not get access to magian trials of the dagger, we dont get access to any good DD dagger other than yahtangas and those are pathetic.
The rest of arcons post may have been over the top (smn with ukkos) but hes actually the one making a valid argument here. No other job with C- weapon skill gets access to any of the lvl 96 skills, so there is no reason to make an exception for a job that doesnt get access to the magian or lvl 71 ws quest. -
12-04-2011, 09:52 AMShinron-PUP
I didn't mean the weapon skill was attainable by the job naturally, but by having the sub (Ninja is what I typically use). Arcon's post was correct and brings up more points that comfirm the fact why the weapon skill shouldn't be added rather than be added. Quite frankly, this post wasn't meant more than to put the idea out into the public because I would enjoy seeing a new weapon style. It always seemed to me that a hand to hand styled weapon was a bit just thrown in there... It stylistically doesn't even seem like a weapon a true Puppetmaster would use. In FF10 Lulu was a blackmage that used a Puppet to fight. I always imagined our puppets would be the attackers/tankers and we would be the support through healing/magic/ etc. but those roles are a bit reversed, so sorry if I come off as being random but it's inherent in me to want to deviate from hand-to-hands because they just don't seem correct to the job.
Now I will say, on the other hand, I would rather everything be kept as hand-to-hand because I prefer the fact that the Automaton vs. the Master's use in battle is about a 50%-50% ratio instead of how Dragoon is about a 25% (Dragon)-75% (Master) ratio, beastmaster is a 60% (Pet) - 40% (Master) ratio and Summoner is a 80% (Pet) - 20% (master) Ratio. This meer fact that we're 50-50 makes the job extremely versatile because the Master and Automaton can switch places in battle. The purpose of me stating this , though, is because since the aspect of Puppetmaster is so focused on being versatile (Where we have BLM when magic damage is necessary, Paladin when tanking, RNG when physical dmg, etc. etc.), we should add to that versatility by also having expertise in the skill of Dagger. I already knew this would be a debatable post, but please take into consideration where I coming from. Having this dagger skill to accompany hand-to-hand could also be situational when piercing is necessary, or even something as simple as procing if Square Enix intends to further add more "Proc Systems" in the game.
I wouldn't mind if this post was completely disregarded, but it is necessary that someone, at the least, is brave enough to post something completely abstract because you never know how good of an impact it could make on the job... -
12-04-2011, 01:09 PMAlhanelemThough PUP should never use daggers, I gotta stop you there. If you're so handily outdamaging a THF or a DNC set up to do damage, then your thief sucks and anyone you're doing 2-3x the damage of is also sucking.Quote:
There is no such thing as a decent DD (any job) using daggers. My pup will do 2-3x the damage of my theif any day of the week
-
12-04-2011, 03:10 PMSpiritreaver@1-What was thrown in was the skill rating SE gave PUP at its onset. HTH as a weapon type is actually pretty nice imo. Now that we have a better rating, i really have to stretch to think of any other weapon PUP should have gotten as its main weapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP
@2-That is what SE seemed to have in mind at first. And my god am i glad that eventually even the devs saw that wasn't gonna work and started to finally add PUP to DD gear 75+. Now you can still pop into mage set in some situations, but again thank god those aren't the norm.
@3-I'd say the pet/master dmg ratio results in a more dynamic job than a versatile one in PUPs case actually. If you are like me and end up in a hybrid role alot, its 100%master/ 0%pet; as i usually have Soulsoother out. And i know others ingame that play completely different from me.
@4-If piercing dmg is needed, really i'd say a quick respec of the auto into a Sharphot config would be the way to go. And if the master needed to jump in as well, then there are Birdbanes and that NM is never camped.
@5-Brave i'll give ya, abstract not so much. Alot of what you are saying is stuff that after really playing the job for a while just answers itself. Or After a bit you just say, 'Oh that's just not a feasible thing to do in this situation'.
Daggers are a good solid weapon type. But PUP lacks a few things that would make them feasible for us to use; the SA/TA that THFs get, the sheer attack speed of DNC, or the increased atk/acc of better skill that both mentioned jobs have over PUP.
Anyways, just wanted to speak at those points. Sorry if this post is late, got interrupted halfway through typing it. -
12-05-2011, 12:36 AMDfoleyQuote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Well at 99 thf is looking at
73 minimum dly with weapon dmg averaging 45x2 (30% faster than h2h 45% less dmg)
versus pup
106 minimum dly with weapon dmg averaging 80~83 x2
If your pup isnt doing more dmg then a thf, then the pup isnt gearing correctly.... Considering pup has better ws, higher base dmg by almost double, and has a pet that on top of everything adds even more dmg, (not to mention the WS are just as powerful if not more so than any thf ws) -
12-05-2011, 01:16 AMArcon80 base damage for PUP? Sure, with Kenkonken/Vere, but then you also gotta take THF's best weapons into account (55 each). Then we're at 753 dps on THF (per hand) and 756 dps on PUP (also per hand). You also need to take into account such petty stuff like Triple Attack (10% rate), Critical Atk. Bonus (14%) and higher skill and DEX, so higher Attack, Accuracy and Critical Hit Rate. Then there's things like SA/TA/AC. And this is just straight job ability/trait comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfoley
But guess what, no, I'm not saying THF is a better DD than PUP. And, for that matter, Alhanelem didn't say that either. PUP still has its automaton, which can do some decent damage (as long as the Haste values don't get too high), and Victory Smite beats all THF WS (Stringing Pummel is also better than most). All we're saying is that PUP can't pull up to 3x a THF's damage without the THF sucking royally. -
12-05-2011, 11:20 AMDfoley
Well i said 2-3x not 3x. And you are already admitting that dps per hand is > on pup than thf. Add in our pets as is and its pretty darn close to 2x. Add in our pets post pupdate, and its closer to 3x. And I will let it slide that i was assuming level 90 empyerian on pup and 90 emp dagger + non-emp dagger for thf (avging down to 45 per hand 50 main 40 for off hand)
My original point was that daggers aren't a dd weapon like hand 2 hand, specially on pup who has c- skill, no native ws's, no native dual wield or access to much dual wield gear. All i said from there was even thf (arguably the best dagger user) cant even out DD a pup using h2h.
And as long as your aren't lololdschool and count the pet dmg as part of the masters it really isn't an argument. -
12-06-2011, 05:39 PMAlhanelemNo, it's the other way around. While PUP isn't quite a bottom feeder anymore, it's still not going to outperform other people who are serious about their jobs.Quote:
If your pup isnt doing more dmg then a thf, then the pup isnt gearing correctly....
Actuallly that may no longer be true. DNC is right up there and in a DD mode DNC has more haste than a THF can get without having a DNC supporting them, and has a huge rate of double attack. You're still wrong about PUP beating a dagger user that's playing right. Of course, in a solo situation, it's harder for a THF to maximize its damage. daggers are specialist weapons that are weak on their own but jobs that mainly use daggers get many abilities that bump up their power. PUP doesn't naturally have any offensive boosting abilities. They are most able to enhance the pet, which sadly can't be buffed up much outside of what the master can do for them.Quote:
All i said from there was even thf (arguably the best dagger user) cant even out DD a pup using h2h.
The strong players who are criticizing PUP are not ignoring the pet damage. What they do is compare the performance of the master to a similar caliber player of another job, and then use this information to determine the performance gap that the pet must offset for the job to perform on par. The pet really does not fully make up for the performance gap of PUP's lack of offensive job abilities, slower attack speed and lower base damage due to less HTH skill versus the only other job with the same primary weapon. PUP performs best when haste is out of the picture- the more haste that is available to the players, the more of a disadvantage that PUP is at- Both because the pet doesn't benefit, and because PUP's far more frequent use of job abilities slow down his own attacks.
As valiant a defender as I can often be as PUP, I can still see the job's failings and where it most needs to improve to be a real contender. It has improved greatly over the last year or so, but it still has a ways to go before anyone will really accept it.
TL:DR; Daggers sure as hell are not EVER going to help PUP and giving them the dagger weapon skill is a collosal waste of time )even if it literally took 1 second to implement) and totally pointless because no one should ever use it. -
12-06-2011, 06:11 PMArconVery misleading. The raw damage, maybe, and by a completely unnoticeable amount (0.4%). That's before you take higher Triple Attack into account, along with higher Attack and Accuracy, a lot higher critical hit rate and even higher critical hit damage increase. Not to mention better DD gear than PUP (easier for THF to reach the delay cap than PUP too). So in the end, THF will decimate PUP in melee damage, disregarding the automaton (as in, easily 50% more damage than PUP).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfoley
No, pet damage post pupdate you'll pull ahead of THF again. But probably not by much. The only time PUP was ever a good DD was with pre-nerf Burattinaios. Now it's probably ahead of THF, but on a comparable level. Not 2x and not even close to 3x.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfoley
-
12-12-2011, 01:23 AMDohati
i just think it'd be nice if pup had a decent dmg option that wasn't blunt for those blunt-resistant or blunt-immune mobs.
-
12-12-2011, 06:32 AMMotentenUsing non-empyreans for simplicity:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfoley
Thf:
TA - 6% (trait), 5% (merit), 3% (AF3), 3% (Epona) = 17%
DA - 5% (Brutal), 3% (Epona), 3% (Atheling), 2% (Twilight) = 13%
Delay/round at max haste with a pair of magian daggers: 76
1 swing every 26.24 delay.
Pup:
TA - 3% (Epona) = 3%
DA - 5% (Brutal), 3% (Epona), 3% (Atheling), 2% (Twilight), 3% (AF3) = 16%
Delay/round at max haste with magian h2h: 108
1 swing every 44.44 delay
So Thf swings 69% more often. Crit damage bonus means another edge of ~1.5% total melee damage (excluding SA/TA), so I'll just merge that with swing frequency and call it a 70% lead.
Therefore the pup needs to be doing 70% more damage per hit just to break even.
Thf: 45 base on Kila +3 dagger plus ~8 fStr = 53 base damage. Pup needs to have 53 * 1.7 = 90 base damage to break even with thf.
Assuming the same 8 fStr, and with Taipan +3s giving +32 dmg, you need 50 dmg from skill. Cap for pup at level 95 is 376 skill, plus 16 from merits, 7 from Faith and 5 from AF3 head gives you 404 skill, or 47 dmg.
So, you're 3 base damage short of being able to match the thf on the melee side, not counting SA/TA, accuracy or attack, and before accounting for weaponskills. And at those haste levels you aren't going to be getting a 50/50 master/pet split to pretend you can reach 2x thf damage; probably closer to 90/10. The extra ~10% from the puppet is balanced against the ~3% shortfall in base damage plus whatever edge thf can get with SA/TA (will also be fairly low at those haste levels, but still enough to make that gap pretty much disappear).
Lots of additional variations can be had with different weapons (including Empyreans) with different damage and delay values. However nothing is going to change the overall balance enough to get anywhere even remotely close to the idea of pup doing 2x or more damage than thf. If your pup is doing that much more damage than your thf, then your thf sucks. -
12-12-2011, 08:50 PMKristal
Although I agree PUP's 2x+ damage claim under ideal circumstances is farfetched, your numbers are skewed in favor for THF.
For starters, DA and TA do not stack. You're using THF/NIN, but PUP/--- instead of PUP/WAR. Also, you can't compare fSTR like that, since H2H uses a different formula for weapon rank. -
12-12-2011, 09:29 PMArconI'm pretty sure he knows that. It's not much of an issue anyway. TA will take priority, so it will just remove 17% of the DA swings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristal
0.17*0.13 = 0.0221
So a THF would get 72.21% single hits, 10.79% double hits and 17% triple hits:
0.7221*1 + 0.1079*2 + 0.17*3 = 1.4479
(76/1.4479)/2 = 26.24
Which means 44.79% additional attacks, which means 26.24 delay per swing on average.
No, he's using THF/---. The only thing THF gets from /NIN is Dual Wield anyway, which plays no part in these calculations, since they just assume delay cap, not how it is reached. THF can reach that without /NIN at 98 (THF will get nothing damage related from /NIN at 99).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristal
H2H uses floor((D+3)/9) instead of floor(D/9). THF has rank 5, PUP has rank 4 at 99 (rank 3 at 95, assuming Taipan Fists +4 vs. +3 at 95). The fSTR calculation is the same. Also, interestingly, THF has more STR than PUP, even more so in this particular scenario from the offhand Kila.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristal
-
12-13-2011, 10:35 PMKristal
Ah, I see where I went wrong in my own calculations in Excel. Somehow I ended up at the same 69%, but I made a wrong conclusion there.
Still, THF has an advantage in that setup. Once you add proper gear in the mix, and fight tougher stuff, PUP does start to pull ahead.