New Monk Weapon skills

So we have access to three new weaponskills on the test server: Hand-to-hand, club and staff. I played a few with them. They are obtainable with 10 merits after doing the last genkai quest. Each merit upgrades damage. Can merit a maximum of three weaponskills to the max, or 15 weaponskills at level 1. Upgrading one WS to lv5 costs 100 merit points.

(english version is buggy, so I used french version so I dont have the names):

-hand-to hand: 5 fold attack with add plague effect. Help text says DEX modified, but help message on the weaponskill says plague varies with TP so it should not be crit weaponskill. Did a few tries on EP bunny @ vollbow outpost with veretragan 95 and spharai 95, with TP gear:

veretragna: asuranfists 1400~1600, victory smite 1800~2000, NewWS= 1800~2000

spharai: asuran ~1700 NewWS~2200.

Ok the new H2H WS is not crap at all. Looks comparable to Victory smite, so spharai 99 + NewWS should be = to empy 99 with victory smite. Of course there is goign to be a lot of comparison in the next days once Modfifiers are known and WS gear sets are optimized.

Also I did 1.5k damage with the staff ws (earth staff), and the club WS is a 7 hit one, I did 1k dmg with a DMG1 club lol.

Anyone else thinks denali body +5 is overpowered ?

Quote:

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Denali Set +5 - Set Bonus Sometimes deals big damage:

Denali Bonnet +5 - DEF34 STR+6 AGI+14 Ratk+6 Macc+6 Mab+6 Crit+4% Setbonus
Denali Jacket +5 - DEF63 ACC+12 Haste+4 Doubleattack +3% Trippleattack+3% Quadrupleattack+3% Setbonus
Denali Wristbands +5 - DEF28 DEX+8 VIT+8 AGI+8 ACC+10 EVA+10 EnhancesFastcast (4%) Haste+4 Setbonus
Denali Kecks +5 - DEF47 STR+9 AGI +9 ATK+14 EVA+14 Haste+6 Setbonus
Denali Gamashes +5 - DEF26 DEX+10 AGI+10 MND+10 ATK+16 Ratk+10 DoubleAttack+3% Setbonus

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1+3*0.03+(1-0.03)[ 2*0.03+ (1-0.03)*0.03 ]=1.176

works more or less like double attack +17.6% starting from zero

and with /war brutal epona atheling it acts as double attack + 13% more or less aka beats anything in the game including AF3+2 body during impetus probably. It's all the greater that level 99 vere will make it even easier to cap fstr. Also allows less haste in other slots.

I think it's pretty neat, but if they're unlocking Floors 101-500 I doubt it'll be "easy" to casually obtain.

My money's on each 20th floor repeating the same armor slot as the first 100, with Floor 120 dropping Feet+1, and so on, with new HNM tiers every 50 floors. So, you'd need to climb to floor 480 and spam the level 99 boss there in order to get Jacket+5.

Hell, if they're feeling really mean, they may even make the bosses drop items used to upgrade the pieces rather than the upgrades pieces themselves.

Edit: Actually, this seems off, since they'd need 600 floors to do that. Maybe floors 20-100 are getting a revamp and drop the +1s? Then 120-200 drop the +2s, etc.

I didn't think I'd ever say that Nyzlul and denalol would be good for monk... Maybe I'll go farm the pieces I don't have. I have the hands, and I think I had the Body for THF, maybe tossed it. Can't wait for salvage upgrades.

sounds more fun than voidwatch.

On that note the new head/body will be great for the new H2H WS.
Optimal gear in other slots would be ZNM hands, byakko, denali feet +5, plus various easy to obtain gear in other slots for +90 dex.

I ran some numbers assuming the dex mod is 100% using 1.0 ftp on the first hit.
With level 99 spharai and that new WS
5*(0.11*432+3+52+13+0.85*175)*1.98=2616.2730
With level 99 vere and that new WS
5.25*(0.11*432+3+42+12+0.85*0.6*190)*(0.6*1.980000000+0.4*2.980000000)=2516.742900

I assumed a mob with 460 def, that you have 900 attack, and that VS averages to be 40% crit rate globally between impetus up/down. With ftp=1.0 and good gear it's already better than VS but only if you got spharai maxed.

Quote:

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veretragna: asuranfists 1400~1600, victory smite 1800~2000, NewWS= 1800~2000

spharai: asuran ~1700 NewWS~2200.

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Did you do those tests with the weaponskills just unlocked (1 merit) or fully upgraded (5 merits)?

Given that the damage is on par with VS, I'm going to guess 5 merits. Can you try a few more with just 1 merit to see how much of an upgrade it is to max them out?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I think it's pretty neat, but if they're unlocking Floors 101-500 I doubt it'll be "easy" to casually obtain.

My money's on each 20th floor repeating the same armor slot as the first 100, with Floor 120 dropping Feet+1, and so on, with new HNM tiers every 50 floors. So, you'd need to climb to floor 480 and spam the level 99 boss there in order to get Jacket+5.

Hell, if they're feeling really mean, they may even make the bosses drop items used to upgrade the pieces rather than the upgrades pieces themselves.

Edit: Actually, this seems off, since they'd need 600 floors to do that. Maybe floors 20-100 are getting a revamp and drop the +1s? Then 120-200 drop the +2s, etc.

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I would guess that they are gonna make 1-100 drop +1 item, so that people who have them completed have a reason to go back and do them with people that don't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Motenten

Did you do those tests with the weaponskills just unlocked (1 merit) or fully upgraded (5 merits)?

Given that the damage is on par with VS, I'm going to guess 5 merits. Can you try a few more with just 1 merit to see how much of an upgrade it is to max them out?

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Its with level 5 merit. Here is more numbers on lv -1 mandy/rabbits/bees outside of windurst:

H2H skill=447
STR133 DEX107 AGI86 VIT101 INT77 MND77 CHR71
MNK99/THF49.
Sneak attack+ Shiijin fist with TP slightly above 100 ( assuming its not damage vairies with TP)
Weapon: spharai 95 (D48).

This gives 113 base damage; confirmed since the max crit I got: 355.

Numbers:
636
639
625
635
635
628
655
624
647
659
622
676
637
619

Maximum of 676 so far. It doesnt work with 100% mods hypothesis so far since

(113+107*0.85)*3.15=642.

So either the first hit's fTP is higher, or something else is a mod, or dmage varies with TP since some got done with more than 100tp.

I don't see any confirmation that the first hit fTP is 1.0 anyways. As far as I know, that's just an assumption for simplicity in Pchan's math.

The description says that duration of plague varies with TP. Those numbers tell us it's superior to what I mathed above, most likely higher ftp which is good as far as multi attack gear goes. Just need different dex or skill values now and do a linear approx.

Or it could mean the 0.85 is no longer valid.

its plague succes chance varies with TP actually. Anyway 672 with a 300TP shijin fist so its not damage varies with tp.

What is my base damage with a D48 weapon and capped STR lol? I just got a 357 crits so my base dmg must be over 114. but with 447 skill and 5 weapon rank its says 48+52+13=113.

113 so umm... it's 114. Do you have some kind of crit+ or impetus ? Maybe a job trait ? /thf ? Still doesn't explain the numbers. Did you use wsdmg+ gear ? Did you mix with a kick maybe?

All pertinent BG testing thus far suggests Alpha is still 0.85.

And Guillotine has "duration of silence varies with TP", with an fTP of 0.875. We can assume 1.0 for now, but there's nothing that says it has to be that.


Hmm. The distribution of damage is a bit odd. There's a 17 point gap between #1 and #2; 37 points between #1 and #5. Meanwhile there's 5 results between #5 and #9 covering a spread of just 4 points of damage, and 5 results between #10 and #14 covering 9 points of damage.

In other words, a very low frequency of values at the uppermost range, which is contrary to standard crit distributions which give a higher frequency of results in the upper range. The middle and bottom ranges look a bit like over 3.0/under 3.0 distributions, but not enough to really tell.


Regardless, with 676 max damage that puts base damage at at least 215. With non-WSC damage of 113, that means at least 102 damage from WSC if fTP is 1.0. Could theoretically have 112.5% Dex mod (some indication that it was dex modded?), as (107*112.5%) = 120.375 => 120 * 0.85 = 102.

With the 17% (or 17.5%?) number being floated around (someone mentioned it as part of the merit description, I think?), that would put the WSC at 60% with 1 merit. As such I would then predict: 54 WSC for 107 dex, so 113+54 = 167 base damage, max crit of 526.

That would be a 28.5% increase in total damage by taking it from 1 merit to 5.

Quote:

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What is my base damage with a D48 weapon and capped STR lol? I just got a 357 crits so my base dmg must be over 114. but with 447 skill and 5 weapon rank its says 48+52+13=113.

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That's..... odd. Base damage would have to be at least 114, but I don't see any way you could reach that, unless you somehow missed an extra 8 points of skill equipped somewhere. It's not a normal hit that got a triple proc off the relic?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

113 so umm... it's 114. Do you have some kind of crit+ or impetus ? Maybe a job trait ? /thf ? Still doesn't explain the numbers. Did you use wsdmg+ gear ?

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yea impetus lol. its 113 then.

We need the values with vere to interpolate. The dex assumptions comes from the ingame description of merits I think (or JP versions ?)

In terms of Denali being amazing, I think it's interesting to note that Nyzul gear was, in many ways, just scaled down Salvage gear. (Denali hat was very similar to Usukane hat, Morrigan's hands were basically +1 everything that was on goliard hands)

Don't know if they'll keep the trend, but I'm very hopeful.

Ok ingame description in the merit list :

H2H skill 357 or greater
ajusts DEX bonus by 17%

The color of the ws in the ws list is red if anyone wondered, also virus is fire based.

17% can't be exact in /1024 values. 175/1024 would be 17.09%. 179/1024 would be 17.48%.

4 upgrades of just 17% would be 68%. Could perhaps be 50% with one merit, up to 118% with 5 merits. Perhaps target 100% with 4 merits, so 117% with 5 merits, and 49% with 1 merit (or 47.5% with 1 merit up to 117.5% with 5 merits, if the 17.5% speculation was valid).


If the gap between 1 and 5 merits seems to be less, it could be 17% of whatever the base mod is. For example, 60% base, 60%*1.17=70% for 2 merits, 60%*1.34=80% for 3 merits, 60%*1.51=90% for 4 merits, 60%*1.68=100% for 5 merits.

So now with verethragna at lv 90 ( apparently its not 95 on the test server), ive got a max shijin fists of 630 with the same stats ( so in this case 99 base dmg).

(113+MOD)*3.15*fTP=676
(99+MOD)*3.15*fTP=630.

This is consistent with fTP=1 and MOD=102 for example, although other combinations are possible. could be another stat as mod

max H2H, dex 96, str 156,vit 107 I have a maximum of 606 with D39 on vere 95.

So far I think 85% dex mod and 1.125 ftp would match. 17*5=85 btw it could be that each merit adds 17%.
Seems to matches with mdk's values too ...

nvm as I got 614 on the next ws.....

Almost naked now, with just vereth 90 and tantra gloves:

STR107 DEX102 VIT89 AGI86 INT77 MND88 CHR71 gives a maximum of 612 ( so far).

STR141 and same DEX/VIT etc as above: 617 max ( so far)

Might be a STR mod too. 100% DEX 10%STR ftp=1 could work. But im goign to sleep hoping someone finds tomorrow. testing sucks.

My final data

STR 156/ DEX 96 / VIT 107 / H2H kill 454 / damage +39
range between 550 and 614 (20 ws)

STR 155/ DEX 96 / VIT 107 / H2H kill 440 / naked weapon
range between 450 and 463 (10 ws)

STR 155/ DEX 96 / VIT 107 / H2H kill 440 / damage +25
range between 482 and 549 (5 ws)

I did a small loop

Quote:

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for x from 0 to 150 do
> for y from 0.50 to 1.50 by 0.01 do
> S:=y*3.15*(51+8+x);
> T:=y*3.15*(52+39+12+x);
> U:=y*3.15*(51+25+11+x);
> if (S>= 463 and S <= 463+20 and T>= 614 and T<= 614+20 and U >=549 and U<= 560) then print(x,y,S,T,U);end if;
> end do; end do;

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which checks which possible values for "x" (=the mod ) and "y" (=the ftp) match while x is an integer and y varies by steps of 0.01 (the damage must be greater than what I find, and smaller than that damage +20). The only matching values are x=76,y=1.09.

So right now I think it's 1.09 ish ftp and 76 mod for dex=96. Seems to be around 94% dex it's not pretty.

Looking at mdk's data with spharai
1.09*3.15*(52+48+13+0.85*0.94*107)=681 while he find 676 and if we floor
floor(1.09*(52+48+13+floor(0.85*0.94*107)))*3.15=677.25 so close to what he finds

Now for his data with 107 dex and vere 90
floor(1.09*(52+35+12+floor(0.85*0.94*107)))*3.15=630

Now for his last data (which is with vere 90 not spharai 90 as he has spharai 95)
floor(1.09*(52+35+12+floor(0.85*0.94*102)))*3.15=617.40

mew ?

summary :ftp=1.09 and 94% DEX (if dex is the only mod)

That's really not pretty at all. If we assume that the WSC value is in X/1024 format, and is divisible by 5, you're still stuck between 960/1024 = 0.9375 and 965/1024 = 0.94238. Beyond that, it would be adding 19.2-19.3%/merit versus anything close to 17%.

You have U limited to 560. Is there any reason you didn't use 549+20 there like the others? It's still within scope even if the low end value is at the absolute bottom of the pDif range.


If we assume a 1.0 fTP (for simplicity) we have:

S = 3.15*(51+8+x); @463+
T = 3.15*(52+39+12+x); @614+
U = 3.15*(51+25+11+x); @549+

Valid base damage that can result in a value between the max observed sample and +20 dmg higher than that:
S = 147 to 153
T = 195 to 201
U = 175 to 180

Which gives a value of x between:
S = 88 to 94
T = 92 to 98
U = 88 to 93

Overlap: 92-93

Extracting alpha means it needs a total between 109 and 110.

Given a dex of 96, that means a WSC between 113.6% and 114.5%. Will just call it 114%.


Checking earlier data:

102 dex == 98 WSC
Vere 90 = d35
Skill = 447 == d52
Total base: 52+35+12+98 = 197
197 * 3.15 = 620 (observed: 617)


107 dex == 102 WSC
Spharai 95 = d48
Skill = 447 == d52
Total base: 52+48+13+102 = 215
215 * 3.15 = 677 (observed: 676)



At the moment it looks like a solid estimate: 1.0 fTP, 114% dex WSC. The config that's furthest off is the one you only had 5 samples for.

I'll check further tonight, but yeah my last test only had 5 attempts and I should have put +20 not +10 in the loop. If someone could explain the BG idiots in the Test server thread that you don't test a WS based on its damage against level 100 voidwatch NMs...

I ran numbers with my simulator (the one that accounts for 4s pause between mobs and 10k HP mobs)
and spharai 99+shijin is about on par with vere+VS


*With ftp=1.09 and 94% mod
440 def mobs, 110 vit, dia3, 1 level difference
700 base attack on both weapon during ws (+40 for sparai I know it's a bit less)
21% DA 3% TA on both sets
200 dex 192 str assumed (I know it's far from perfect for vere)

VS~2723 (account for impetus accounts 20% crit%)
SS~2779

*With ftp=1.0 and 114% mod
440 def mobs, 110 vit, dia3, 1 level difference
700 base attack on both weapon during ws (+40 for sparai I know it's a bit less)
21% DA 3% TA on both sets
200 dex 192 str assumed (I know it's far from perfect for vere)

VS~2728 (accounts for impetus assumes 20% innate crit%)
SS~3066

I think it's going to be a tie in the end. Spharai doesn't rely on having AM up and offers defense and lolplague while vere is good when chaining etc. Then we have to examine the afterglow effetcs...

Is there a reason why the new ws are shitting on people who spend countless hours in WOE to get a mini-empyrean, and now anyone can just merit a ws? Because we all know how hard getting xp is these days. Am I the only one that sees this as a problem?

Anyone tested footwork with new WS? Ether way it will make testing easier due to tp gain if you aren't using it to gain tp. Start with a +0 dmg weapon and test a large change in each stat keeping the other stats the same. Then once we make sure DEX is the only mod, do some ws's with not very much dex, then another with a lot of dex.

yeah I kept footwork up full time or it takes forever to get tp on the low level mobs since you one shot them. It's 3 times faster.

While I realize it's a lot to ask, I'm hoping you can do a controlled test on fTP. Need about 40 samples each, with and without a gorget (and elemental belt, if you happen to have one to match), using the usual SA+WS on starter zone mobs. Stack as much dex as possible on those tests, since higher base damage values make it easier to differentiate the results. Provide all sample values, not just high/low. Two sets of comparative results (one from each of you) would help make validation easier.

Latest from Gobli apparently have fTP at 1.0625 or something like that, but they may be assuming the 100% stat mod at 5/5.

Updating my data
[D=+0,DEX=96,skill=440]
[463,450,465,456,450,461,455,455,457,460]
[D=+25,DEX=96,skill=440]
[489, 482, 525, 492, 549, 518, 535, 490, 542, 552, 523, 546, 549, 554, 537, 545, 491, 549, 492]
[D=+39,DEX=96,skill=454]
[605,595,556,599,539,590,603,606,604,586,614,595,605,586,601,594,550,605,600,593,559]

Still not enough to accurately narrow the mods but using my loop above If you assume that I am 5 away from the max in each case it only leaves 76 for mods, 1.09 for ftp, and the respective max should be 463,557,614

However if I assume I'm still far from the maximum it doesn't excude 1.06 ftp (which implies 100% dex mod)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Motenten

While I realize it's a lot to ask, I'm hoping you can do a controlled test on fTP. Need about 40 samples each, with and without a gorget (and elemental belt, if you happen to have one to match), using the usual SA+WS on starter zone mobs. Stack as much dex as possible on those tests, since higher base damage values make it easier to differentiate the results. Provide all sample values, not just high/low. Two sets of comparative results (one from each of you) would help make validation easier.

Latest from Gobli apparently have fTP at 1.0625 or something like that, but they may be assuming the 100% stat mod at 5/5.

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What belt/gorget work with SHijin spiral lol is it known? Well if I dont have it i could abyseea and brew something that drops it.

Shijin Spiral makes light with Apex Arrow so it has either fusion or fragmentation.

Unfortunately, not sure on skillchain element. Thought I had it, but the list I have doesn't have H2H. Should be pretty easy to figure out, though.

Also, using the second and third test sets given above, it's pretty much an exact match for 1.0625 fTP and 100% dex mod, with 96 dex giving 81 WSC. The first one is believably within range, as well.

SC test:

Dragon Kick (fragmentation) > Shijin Spiral = Light >> shijin has fusion element
Final Heaven (fusion, light) > shijin spiral = nothing >> shijin has neither fragmentation nor light element

A small ftp test (dozing off to zzz):

DMG +34, H2H skill 440
STR 134, DEX 126, Attack 739
5/5 shijin merit

With flame gorget and light belt, SA shijin on starter mobs:

704
804
773
790
769
758
787
736
769
802
776
721
742

Without gorget, belt:

651
626
654
581
665
658
665
653
635
641
658

The above gorget + belt excludes 1.09 ftp // 94% dex as
3.15*floor(1.29*(52+34+12+floor(0.85*floor(0.94*126))))=803.25
It's still within 1.0625 / 100% dex range

The second test has too low numbers to conclude

If Dex is 100%, that requires an fTP between 1.0392 and 1.0637 for the second test.

The first test would have an fTP between 1.0549 and 1.0598 if the gorget and belt were exactly 0.1. Using 100/1024, though, it would give an fTP between 1.0596 and 1.0645.

The tests themselves have insufficient number of samples to be sure of an fTP range. Best I can narrow it down while ignoring WSC is between 0.964 and 1.113.


For now I'll use 1.0625 in the spreadsheet for initial comparisons.

Put this in the spreadsheet to look at some comparitive numbers (5/5 merits for Shijin) based on current fTP and WSC values.

Using Vere 90 as weapon (outside Abyssea):

Smite:
Tantra Tathlum
Aias Bonnet
Rancor Max
Brutal
Vulcan
Tantra +2
Heafoc
Rajas
Epona
Atheling
Black
Usukane
Tantra +2

Shijin:
Demonry
Aias Bonnet
Gorget
Brutal
Jupiter
Loki's Kaftan
Ample Gloves
Thundersoul
Thundersoul
Nifty
Warwolf
Byakko
Melee +2

Asuran:
Thew Bomblet
Aias Bonnet
Justiciar's
Brutal
Aesir
Tantra +2
Melee +2
Rajas
Spiral
Atheling
Anguinus
Usukane
Tantra +2


VS fodder mobs with capped pDif:
Shijin: 2253
Smite (-Impetus): 2191
Smite (+Impetus): 2573
Asuran: 1689

Bukhis (changed hands in both sets to Melee+2):
Shijin: 1549
Smite (-Impetus): 1723
Smite (+Impetus): 2126
Asuran: 1512

Faux-Qilin target (changed hands in both sets to Melee+2):
Shijin: 1002
Smite (-Impetus): 1235
Smite (+Impetus): 1262
Asuran: 965


On tougher mobs, Shijin is a bit ahead of Asuran; on weak mobs it's well ahead of Asuran. On tough mobs Smite has a comfortable lead over Shijin, while on weaker mobs they're about on par, if Impetus is down. If Impetus is up and acc is good, Smite takes a substantial lead.


Overall assessment:

If you have Smite, just keep using it.
If you don't have Smite, this is a mild upgrade from Asuran. On the most difficult mobs, Asuran will probably close the gap if you take advantage of the "Accuracy varies with TP" aspect, but on lower end stuff Shijin will be notably better.

The impact of Plague from Shijin is as yet unknown.

It might be due to me not using the spreadsheet correctly but anyway something sounds wierd. On the shijin page If I want to compute the average number of hits per WS I do the sum of the column 'Q' times 'F' over all the lines. If the case of DA=20% and 95% hitrate for instance I find 5.2 when it should average to (1.2+1.2+3)*0.95=5.13
If I do the same stuff for victory smite page (columns H times F) I find 4.18 which is correct since (1.2+1.2+2)*0.95=4.18.

So did you forget to count DA on second hit for shijin calculus ?

Secondly for the data page that I downloaded I have a target of level 106, 560 def, 120 vit which I assume would be qilin ? If I push my accuracy enough, for instance by using extra madrigals, in order to cap accuracy and I compare the spreadsheet gives 1260 average shijin vs 1164 victory. So Shijin is technically superior than VS to me.

Ok now using impetus up & down feature I find with 95% melee acc / 95% ws acc on both sets :

impetus up : VS=> 1372
impetus down : VS=> 1164
shijin => 1260

So shinjin will beat victory/be equal for pure damage (but maybe not for in DPS due to aftermath) as long as your accuracy is good, no ?