Really?
This is an utterly silly design choice.
If it sticks on NMs then they should have just removed the immunities associated with Gravity instead of bothering with a second tier.
If it doesn't stick on NMs then it has added absolutely nothing to the game.
If it sticks on NMs but only applies the evasion down effect, then it is also time wasted because they could have just made the first tier work like that.
A second tier of Gravity is absolutely unnecessary.
Gravity II
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11-17-2011, 11:06 PMcidbahamutGravity II
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11-17-2011, 11:19 PMShadax
SE has a knack for underplaying cool stuff. Remember how we moaned about En2 spells and Composure? Now they are a melee RDM's best friend.
Not saying this won't suck, but I'm willing to wait until we see it used practically before completely writing it off. -
11-17-2011, 11:53 PMNeisan_Quetz
What? En2 spells sucked on release, currently suck, and unless a miracle happens, will suck.
No one is inviting Rdms based on its melee potential.
At least gravity II has a short recast compared to I ... it's definitely not going to do much for Rdm atm, now I can just hope on new merit spells/abilities. -
11-18-2011, 04:22 AMDaniel_Hatcher
You're assuming this doesn't have a much higher evasion-down effect than Gravity's 10.
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11-18-2011, 04:52 AMBubeeky
wow complaining already? I don't mean to start a flame war, cuz honestly I don't care enough to, but can't you at least try to see the benefits/potential of a spell or ability before knocking it?
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11-18-2011, 05:07 AMNeisan_QuetzEvasion down alone isn't going to make Rdm much more viable than it already is. The weight effect is superfluous for most NMs you'd bring more than a Rdm and another kiter to since you either don't need to kite it or kiting it is impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
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11-18-2011, 05:22 AMcidbahamutAccuracy caps. If the DDs are having trouble hitting something they'll just switch to pizza or sushi anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
I fail to see what Gravity II could possibly add to our toolbag. -
11-18-2011, 05:59 AMDaniel_HatcherLets assume it works on all NM's and that only the Movement Speed reduction is removed from the spell on those that resist.Quote:
Originally Posted by cidbahamut
It doesn't take away from our toolbag either. Will it fix RDM enfeebling? No! will it make RDM enfeebling worse? No!
PS. I doubt most of today's players can cap accuracy on VoidWatch mobs or potentially any new ones SE brings out. -
11-18-2011, 06:10 AMMageoholic
Gravity is useless except for movement speed down, SE since nerfed it by making most NM's to resist it out right.
If we are talking a large evasion down effect that sticks regardless then it does have its positives, 30 Evade down would be a 15% increase to melee's hit. That is the difference between meat or sushi. It has that going for it. Even a 10% change is a significant boost to this. But I am not one who speculates much. SE is an expert at ruining things. They screwed up Enspell II's, they have neglected our healing issues (Again), and they offered a spell who's current face value is useless, a spell that will never be used because my BLM/RDM will be the same damn job and offer way more. My SCH/RDM, My BRD/RDM.
Thanks for the nod SE. -
11-18-2011, 09:55 AMSpankWustler
Maybe Gravity II will have niche uses if the Evasion down effect is -30 or -40 and no Notorious Monster is immune or extremely resistant. Of course, the same high difficulty Notorious Monsters on which melee have uncapped accuracy even with pizza +1 are the ones most likely to be resistant or immune. Also, melee will gain 20 accuracy just from the skill gain that comes with going from 95 to 99. Will upcoming Notorious Monsters in Voidwatch and such have more evasion than the current high evasion stuffs?
I can definitely see why people are pessimistic about this spell. -
11-18-2011, 10:35 AMManaKing
Based off Gravity 1, this news is lack luster. Based off a wild assumption that they will change the intended use of Gravity 2, it could be good. But that is assuming pretty much everything.
You can still be positive about it, but i understand people complaining already. -
11-18-2011, 12:01 PMManaKingWow I wish I could convince myself you were being sarcastic. But I'm pretty sure you think enspell 2s are good. You are shared in this opinion by no one, if I'm not mistaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadax
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11-18-2011, 07:42 PMsaevel
Enspell II's completely sucked, they sucked at 75 and they've only sucked more since then. If SE would of just made them Enspell 1 x 2 potency on all hits, THEN they would of been awesome, but instead they tried to make them into some sort of enfeebling item, except their only -10, not worth it. That and their in the wrong order, Enwater II should of gave the monster -30 resist to water and so forth, not thunder.
Composure is pretty amazing, makes self buffing ridiculously easy, the accuracy puts us at the same level as A- users.
Put as for Gravity II .. seriously it's gonna suck. Calling it right now. SE will allow us to land it on "lower" NMs that we TP burn in minutes but make the super NM's completely immune to it. Also it's going to have a really REALLY short duration just like Gravity 1. NM's will build resistance to it so for those NM's that it lands on, it'll only land a few times before the NM becomes immune.
The whole reason we don't use gravity to lower the monsters evasion is the duration, its 30s tops, most likely 10~15s. And that's assuming it even lands on the NM in the first place. It could be -1024 evasion, still wouldn't mean jack sh!t if it only lasts 10~15s and can only be applied a few times to monsters we have 95% accuracy on anyway.
BAD IDEA SE. -
11-19-2011, 12:03 AMtyrantsyn
Man this thread is like shooting the messager before they even get out of the car to walk up to the door.
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11-19-2011, 12:59 AMDaniel_Hatcher
Movement speed is nice, shame they've broken Phalanx II. You cast it and it wears off before it even finishes casting.
Also every NM I tried resisted it completely. -
11-19-2011, 06:25 PMsaevelIt's because we have experience with these sorts of things. SE didn't just spend the last few years making RDM unable to solo anything to change that suddenly. Gravity lowers NM's movement speed making it ridiculously easy to kite / nuke. To prevent this SE makes it so NM's either outright resist Gravity (100% resist rate), that it lasts an incredibly short duration (5s), and that it'll only land twice per fight (building resists). These combined make Gravity useless as a spell, and nothing about Gravity II changes this, thus logic says Gravity II will be equally useless. ~IF~ it lands, then it'll only last a few seconds and you'll only be able to land it a few times.Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrantsyn
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11-19-2011, 07:30 PMTsukino_Kaji
I'm actualy quite looking forward to mobs moving even slower. Just don't give it an ass timer like drain II. -_-
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11-20-2011, 01:47 AMsaevelExcept they won't move slower, it'll be resisted lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji
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11-22-2011, 05:47 AMtyrantsynEverything you said I agree with, My point was "RDM's as group are saying, don't come at me with that crap if it doesn't work" Because your just pissing us off" Didn't quite word it right, my bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
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11-24-2011, 12:34 PMKetaruI'd equate it more to stockholders finding out Apple is going to be developing an expensive high-tech typewriter.Quote:
Man this thread is like shooting the messager before they even get out of the car to walk up to the door.
Wut?Quote:
En2 spells...are a melee RDM's best friend.
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11-26-2011, 06:45 AMKaisha
I casted it on 3 VW NM (Celaeno, Goji, Aello) so far a couple times with my Enfeebling build, and full resists across the board.
Not surprised at the least. -
11-26-2011, 05:47 PMManaKing
Wow.... so this spell does what again? (Not actually asking what it does, just curious if it will be more or less useful than Break...)
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11-26-2011, 06:50 PMKaisha
Higher cap on the evasion down would be my guess, but it's not like evasion-builds ever played a role in modern end-game events unless you're low-manning Abyssea stuff still for some reason.
I tossed Grav 1 & 2 on two Imps earlier, didn't see a noticable different in movement speed down either. Could be more potent with regards to maintaining max potency, but I didn't travel anywhere to find two VT/IT mobs I could cast them on to see. Not exactly easy to test period anyhow, same for the -EvasionDown. -
11-26-2011, 09:22 PMsaevelAbout what I guessed. It's useless, it'll only land on weak mobs that you wouldn't bother to kite anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisha
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11-26-2011, 11:46 PMtyrantsyn
I think this spell works great! My mind feels enfeeble just thinking about it.
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11-27-2011, 12:12 AMsaevelQuote:
Originally Posted by tyrantsyn
Wow your a genius! You have helped me see SE's vision. RDM's are so powerful at enfeebling that we end up enfeebling ourselves!! -
11-27-2011, 07:39 AMCrimson_Slasher
My guess is longer duration or shorter recast and thats about it.
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11-27-2011, 08:39 AMKaishaDuration is close to the same on both. I should have checked recast, but it was at least 30 seconds on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson_Slasher
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11-27-2011, 11:10 PMLilia
Gravity II
~~~~ Award for the worthless spell ~~~~
2011
Need i rly a gravity2 for normal/easy mobs......? -
11-28-2011, 01:47 AMTrangnaiIf your Grav is only lasting 30 seconds something is wrong. that aside yes, this spell is useless for the same reasons tier I grav is useless, because SE is so scared or rdms being able to do anything that they had to nurf this spell to be enitrely worthless.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
I must ask why there isnt a dev tag thought, the devs should see that this spell is already worthless before they make it mainstream. thought I'm sure it won't change anything, all SE has done sense the level cap increase was troll rdm. -
11-28-2011, 03:19 AMsaevelSpoken from someone who's never kited a NM before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trangnai
Gravity lands on regular monsters for up to 120 seconds, but on NM's your lucky to get 30s tops and usually 15s or less. And that's assuming it even lands in the first place. SE did this to inhibit all those RDM soloists from using gravity to kite nuke NM's. -
11-28-2011, 03:47 AMSwords
Aye but the catch 22 is Gravity I/II are only really needed for and useful for NM's. SE's approach with current mobs are fodder = too weak to merit casting most of our enfeebles to begin with and NM's = So damn resistant or outright immune enfeebles don't do shit. I've more than given up on SE to try and give RDM a normal approach that isn't restricted out the arse, so I'm pretty positive most would agree with me that any "fixes" to enfeebling are going to be ridiculously flawed it will end up being another nerf in disguise, that's why most people know there is little if any point in handing us a higher tier Gravity.
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11-28-2011, 03:59 AMsaevelQuote:
Originally Posted by Swords
This is what I keep trying to tell people. They all want to put on the rose glass's and talk about how they enfeebled a crab or a raptor back "in the day". Thing is, enfeebles have always been ~meh~ on NMs, but then SE went way overboard and destroyed their usefulness. In a way I can't blame them, the enfeebles they created would be break the game should they be allowed full tilt. Imagine silencing abyssea or VWNM's. Or Paralyzing 25% of their actions. Being able to use CC on them like Break / Bind / Gravity / Sleep. It becomes one of those things where if it works, then it breaks the fight, so they made it so it's complete trash. The only fix would be to create a new line of enfeebles that didn't involve new game mechanics and didn't disable the NM. -
11-28-2011, 04:16 AMSwords
To be honest I think old school enfeebling mechanics would work well with how the VWNM's are currently setup in power. No one can deny they're pretty stupid powerful, but if they weren't built with new school enfeebling resistances/immunities it would pull the VWNM's down just enough they are a bit more manageable giving a good balance, proving people arn't just trying to zerg their way through them of course.
Thinking about it now, if SE really intends on "fixing" enfeebling wouldn't it be counter-productive to give RDM another tier of Gravity. Even if mobs will still gain resistance quickly, they are still giving RDM another kite tool to cycle through, further enforcing the whole Avestapocolypse 2.0 they've been desperately trying to avoid. So either my point in my previous post is further enforced that any "Fixes" are going to be flawed, nerfs in disguise, OR SE intends on setting us up for further enfeebling nerfs once they realized what a big mistake they just made. -
11-28-2011, 04:48 AMManaKing
I'm pretty sure we are all just pissed off that instead of NMs reduce the potency of enfeebles, they just threw the problem out the window and started making things immune because they didn't want to deal with the problems surrounding Bind, Gravity, and Sleep.
They already have enfeebles somewhat coded for NMs with Saboteur. The JA realizes the difference between something that is fodder and something that is a NM. So why not have the same distinction for reducing potency on enfeebles instead of making them immune?
If the difference between Slow and Slow 2 on a NM was a legitimate difference in potency, people might actually want a RDM around for enfeebles. My solution would be get rid of the floor value for normal Enfeebles. That way you can take off the immunity towards enfeebles, but still make it possible for an NM to completely reduce the potency of the enfeeble to nothing. The advantage for having something like Slow 2 is that it would have a floor value.
Slow 1's floor value is (150 + dMND*2)/1024. No matter how bad you are at enfeebling, if you land slow, you get 150/1024, or ~15% slow. Potency is based off the comparison of Caster MND to Target MND, or dMND. If an NM has higher MND than the caster, then if there is no floor value, your Slow 1 hits for a 0% slow.
Slow 2's floor value is ([230] + [y * 10] + [floor(dMND * 1.6)])/1024, where y = number of merits in Slow II. At 1 Merit, your at a ~24% slow, at 5 merits you are at ~28% Slow. If you reduce Slow 2's floor by the same amount that you reduced Slow 1, then you get 90/1024 or ~9% for 1 merit and 130/1024 or ~13% for 5 merits. Everyone can still land enfeebles, but if you don't have a superior slow, you may not get any actual effect. (No idea which side they would put NIN)
Another thing to notice is the difference in the dMND multiplier for Slow vs Slow 2. So the difference in MND is more substantial for Slow 1 than it is for Slow 2. The reason for that is the higher floor value on Slow 2 more than makes up for the loss in scaling. So if you are not a RDM and you want to enfeeble, you still can. You just have to have the accuracy to land your enfeebles and you have to have more MND, or INT on other enfeebles, than what you are enfeebling.
Mobs can still have extremely high magic resists so that it is difficult for even a RDM to be able land the enfeebles. In that case you make the decision about which resist-able enfeeble is most important. You go as RDM/BLM and use Elemental Seal + Saboteur on that mob and hope you can land anything else for the rest of the fight. And every other caster can do this too, but they still have to have the potency on their enfeebles to make it worth doing.
We don't need to have immunity on NMs, we just need to have qualitative differences in potency that can simulate immunity for most jobs. If your priority is enfeebling, you would want a RDM because they can guarantee that there will be some level of potency to what they stick on a mob. -
11-28-2011, 07:51 AMsaevel
SE did hard code NM's to have reduced potency. Many NM's still have hard coded potency reduction, especially in the case of Paralyze. What players did was go from using Gravity to using Bind while saving Gravity for resists / emergency's only. It was only after this that SE finally threw up their hands and just made everything immune to movement restriction spells.
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11-28-2011, 03:05 PMManaKingYeah but they made everything immune to everything else besides movement speed restrictions at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
The reduction of potency and the ability to land spells has always been an issue that players have to over come. How do you overcome straight immunity?
I mean really what is the point of putting Gravity II in the game if it is going to work just as poorly as everything else on RDM that falls under enfeebles?