[dev1035] Are PUPs the only loved ones?

I was reading about how it seemed like you were fixing everything with PUP in a single update and thought it sounded very wonderful. I could however not avoid noticing how a lot of the changes are stuff that are very closely connected to SMN.

Do you have similar plans for Summoner? (I know you supposedly have surveyed us about ward improvements, but it would be nice to know how much you intend on fixing, seeing as you are fixing everything on PUP)




Like are you going to fix Titan's favor to give damage reduction instead of defense, just how you changed the Armor Plating attachments effects?

Are you going to raise the amount of damage reduction on Nocturnal Shield?

Are you going to increase the priority of sleepga from Shiva since it is 1.5 min (sleepga 2) duration, and yet you can't overwrite sleepga 1 (1 min duration)?

Are you going to split up and improve healing AI for Light Spirit?

Are you going to add new spells to Spirits? (Since apparently it is still only Light Spirit getting new nukes and nothing else)


I'm quite envious at the amount of "fixes" going towards PUP right now. I've always said "fixes" are the only thing SMN needs, and yet all we get is new content. Never do we seem to get adjustments that make our old abilities useful.

Do to wards what you did to attachments, and do to spirits what you did to frames, and I believe you might have rejuvenated SMN into a brand new job.

Get rid of Ternary Flourish on DNC and replace it with something actually useful while you're at it.

Oh, it's another Mellowy thread complaining about spirits. Nothing to see here folks.

You gotta be kidding, PUP has been a trophy job since day 1.

Yep, more Mellowy bellyaching about Spirits.

Nothing to see here, folks. Move along....

Thing is, the automaton really needed a lot of fixing. For most jobs, it's only this one thing is broken or that one thing is broken.

Not that I don't think several other jobs also need a fair bit of lovin', of course.

Spirits ain't one of those things though. They serve a few very useful functions and don't need to be changed. I really couldn't care less that they suck at nuking and doing damage, because that's what the avatars are for.

How can someone be so in love with SMN spirits?

It boggles my mind.

I really think Automatons needed the love more than Spirits..

A Spirit is nowhere near the level of importance to a SMN as an Automaton is to a PUP... If you were to have made a better complaint such as "When are the avatars getting new Blood Pact Rages?" instead of standing there and crying "I want my Spirits to do more and through out more powerful nukes and be just awwwwwesome" i would've maybe liked this thread...

I need to ask this because now this bothers me... are you really one of those Summoners who stands there with her Spirit out instead of an Avatar draining your MP pool in hopes that your spirit does some wicked spell like Flare II or Firaja or Fire V?

Before I read this thread, I wouldn't have believe anyone was angry that PUP is finally getting some attention. Turns out I would have been wrong.

Summoner has a purpose and a use right now. PUP has no use. Stop whining.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

How can someone be so in love with SMN spirits?

It boggles my mind.

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Think of it like the abused/neglected housewife; Always dreaming of what her husband could be someday if he only changed, ignoring how terrible he is now and holding out forever on a change that will never happen.

As I began reading this topic, five minutes younger and more naive than I am at present, it amazed me that Mellowy wasn't talking about Spirits again. Sure, she's complaining about Summoner for the hundred-thousandth time, but it's not like there aren't things to complain about. I thought this might mark a new trend in Mellowy's complaints about Summoner...

A few paragraphs later, the illusion is shattered as Mellowy begins talking about Spirits again. Thanks for reminding us all that the sun is still in the sky and the dead are not yet walking the earth, Mellowy.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

How can someone be so in love with SMN spirits?

It boggles my mind.

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You could say that about anyone who is passionate about anything.
Words don't describe everything.

You are seriously complaining about Spirits? Here, let me lay down what use they have.

Buffs (I've often used a LightSpirit right before a fight for the pro/shell if I were solo)
Elemental Siphon
Aggro and need something to get attention (since spirits cast faster than avatars)

That's it. Automatons have been BROKEN for 5 years now. FIVE. YEARS.
-The WHM/RDM frames are FINALLY getting some enhancing spells.
-RDM hasn't been able to cast T4 spells since the level 80 cap was released.
-WHM frame would always cast the highest tier cure despite MP cost/if it was called for.
-WHM frame would always cast -na spells over Cure (which they still do, but...)
-All mage frames would cast one spell then have to wait ~23 secs depending on frame/head mixture.
-BLM frame would only cast Aspir when MP hit 75%.
-Shock Absorber attachment was a constant 100HP Stoneskin; useless when everything in abyssea hits for 200+ as VT/IT.
-Eraser would remove ALL maneuvers, but would only remove status effects equal to the number of Light Maneuvers lost.
-Heatsink would only apply to Fire Maneuvers (helpful for RNG/Melee frame. Useless for mage frames.)
-Even with Analyzer equipped, the Automaton's Shield Bash would only gain an enhancement if the mob used the TP move already. (If it used another TP move different from the previous one, the "memory" on Analyzer would reset.)
-RNG Frame Automaton's ranged attacks are calculated as Throwing; the closer the automaton is, the more damage it does and the more likely it will take damage. Further away, it is safer but does less damage.

Don't say "Are PUPs the only loved ones" like we get something every update. This has been LONG overdue.

Shouldn't elemental spirits be more compared to the use of monsters that BST's charm than that of automatons anyway?

Spirits don't need to be relevant, they were basically placeholders until RoZ was added and the Avatars were introduced. They need about as much updating as low level BLU spells and nukes.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Spirits don't need to be relevant, they were basically placeholders until RoZ was added and the Avatars were introduced. They need about as much updating as low level BLU spells and nukes.

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Maybe so. I still find relevance in voidwatch, using them to help proc elemental magic if we're low on blms and some stuff don't land. Hugely a luck factor in there, but they've been proven to work.

I see no problem with smn really, i think its good as is. Smn along with bst dominates things like WoE. They are pretty much the ones carrying the PC's to victory (like the big dragon flux forget what number, PC's bite it so easily from Vermillion Wind, and others, pets take it in stride) with thier amazing curing of pets (bst), and ability to just poop out a new pet in a matter of seconds (smn). Pup cannot do that, at least NOT as well.

Its time for other pet jobs to shine imo, or get some kind of spot in the light.

Oh, and another thing.

Avatars have a native Physical Damage Taken -50%; 52~% with Stout Servant and no gear.


And yes, I'm aware you're talking for Titan's Favor being changed from DEF+ to DMG taken-. But Automatons only have PDT-5% just from stout servant and no gear. And with gear (not counting any add-on augmented gear), we can get a whomping PDT-5% and DMG taken -2%.

Players that will be tanking and will be the ones that benefit the most from the favor can easily get damage taken- gear. And Earthen Armor on top of all that to lower damage even further should an attack be lethal.

Please, for the love of God, don't complain about Puppetmasters getting a pet update that matters after so long. SMN isn't broken. Well... Maybe for that Phalanx bit from Diabolos and Sleepga. But Spirits are considered useless among summoners for anything that isn't what I listed before in my previous post. PUPs actually NEED this to function properly as a Solo job/Party job. This is going to open quite a few doors for PUP; doors that SMN already has access to.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Before I read this thread, I wouldn't have believe anyone was angry that PUP is finally getting some attention. Turns out I would have been wrong.

Summoner has a purpose and a use right now. PUP has no use. Stop whining.

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I would strongly disagree that "PUP has no use" right now, though I would agree if it was changed to "No use that especially stands out in a crowd." It's not that PUP is "bad", it's that nothing it does is particularly special except maybe in a solo context.

That being said, the changes in this update make the things that a lot of people WANT to do with pup but cant much more doable than before. e.g. being able to take a supportive role without getting screwed pver on any monster that inflicts any curable status effect. Just making the AI a lot less fail is a miracle in itself as far as making PUP more useable.

You'd be wrong. PUP has no purpose in the game. You can use it to solo DC monsters, but what can't you use to solo DC monsters?

Voidwatch? One shade below totally worthless. Oh yay, a damage source that can occasionally proc stuff.
XPing? Not an event anymore. If you don't get all the xp you need just from doing other stuff, you're leveling a new job or doin' it wrong.
Dynamis? No JA procs worth talking about, and no TH.
Abyssea? Can't even proc well in Blunt, let alone magical WSs or magic.
Salvage? Anything + Anything can duo almost every zone. PUP has no particular advantages.
WoE? Puppet recast is too long to be relevant as a pet job. As a melee it has all the same problems as every other melee.

It's worthless. I don't know how I could possibly design an event where it's not worthless.

I see nothing in OP about spirits beyond the last; why the sudden talk about Spirits?

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Originally Posted by Darkvalkyr

I see nothing in OP about spirits beyond the last; why the sudden talk about Spirits?

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really?

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I was reading about how it seemed like you were fixing everything with PUP in a single update and thought it sounded very wonderful. I could however not avoid noticing how a lot of the changes are stuff that are very closely connected to SMN.

Do you have similar plans for Summoner? (I know you supposedly have surveyed us about ward improvements, but it would be nice to know how much you intend on fixing, seeing as you are fixing everything on PUP)




Like are you going to fix Titan's favor to give damage reduction instead of defense, just how you changed the Armor Plating attachments effects?

Are you going to raise the amount of damage reduction on Nocturnal Shield?

Are you going to increase the priority of sleepga from Shiva since it is 1.5 min (sleepga 2) duration, and yet you can't overwrite sleepga 1 (1 min duration)?

Are you going to split up and improve healing AI for Light Spirit?

Are you going to add new spells to Spirits? (Since apparently it is still only Light Spirit getting new nukes and nothing else)


I'm quite envious at the amount of "fixes" going towards PUP right now. I've always said "fixes" are the only thing SMN needs, and yet all we get is new content. Never do we seem to get adjustments that make our old abilities useful.

Do to wards what you did to attachments, and do to spirits what you did to frames, and I believe you might have rejuvenated SMN into a brand new job.

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totally nothing about spirits

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Voidwatch? One shade below totally worthless. Oh yay, a damage source that can occasionally proc stuff.

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Isn't that the case with every job? >.> Well, granted you NEED at least one blm for procing. Three-ish for killing it. But the DDs are just there to proc also along with damage. And PUP can still proc some while doing damage (ya know, like a RNG is there to do damage and then Archery WSs when it pops up.(Leave Marksmanship to the COR. And you will have a COR. Regain rolls are a must for WS procing. /rant))
The Automaton BLM frame gets higher numbers per nuke than a BLM(without a set proc.) And Deactivate wipes the Automaton off the hate list completely. I think it's a good bonus source of hateless damage.

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XPing? Not an event anymore. If you don't get all the xp you need just from doing other stuff, you're leveling a new job or doin' it wrong.

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Agreed.

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Dynamis? No JA procs worth talking about, and no TH.

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Do what everyone else does for JA procs; sub DNC.

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Abyssea? Can't even proc well in Blunt, let alone magical WSs or magic.

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While it's true PUP can't proc magic, a PUP/WAR can do all h2h (save for Asuran Fists), all club (save for Hexa/Black Halo), and (with some staff merits + head gear) can do

Red Lotus Blade (Feast of Swords sword for all jobs)
Seraph Blade (^)
Seraph Strike
Earth Crusher
Sunburst
Raiden Thrust (Halloween Polearm)
Energy Drain
Cyclone

Only missing Jinpu/Koki, Ei, Shadow of Death, and Freezebite.

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Salvage? Anything + Anything can duo almost every zone. PUP has no particular advantages.

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While anything + rdm/whm/sch can duo "almost" everything, you need a third person anyway to even get access in. PUP/NIN with a proper eva set up is a hell of an evasion tank. And the automaton adds another source of damage.

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WoE? Puppet recast is too long to be relevant as a pet job. As a melee it has all the same problems as every other melee.

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Again, while it is a 1min wait time, it's the same time cooldown as a SMN's blood pacts (unless they actually use Blood Pact - gear like they're SUPPOSE TO. (I cry for the SMNs now a days fulltiming the same gear ; ; )) PUP does decent in most fluxes. I get about ~9k just Deploy/Deactivate and subbing sch to cure people.

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It's worthless. I don't know how I could possibly design an event where it's not worthless.

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It's only as worthless as the player wants it to be. Find some career pups instead of all the abyssea burn ones.

I have a well-geared, career PUP in my Voidwatch shell. I've known him for half a decade, cool guy.

He comes on his recently Abyssea-burned SCH to all of our runs because PUP is pretty much useless. It's straight up impossible to force the puppet to use really weak weaponskills for procs, so it's far worse in practice than it is on paper. It can't handle every H2H proc, and the rest of its weapons are pretty fail tier, so we're better off just bringing a Mnk to cover everything PUP can do and then some.

I don't think you realize that doing damage is a secondary, hell even tertiary concern these days. PUP can certainly DD with the rest of the big boys, no one's denying that. Hell, so can Dragoon in Abyssea. That doesn't make Dragoon worth a crap in Abyssea. That simply doesn't make it useful when the focus of the game has shifted away from ZERGZERGZERGZERGZERG REPEAT.

Ironically, PUP as it is now would have been a lot more useful 4 years ago.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I have a well-geared, career PUP in my Voidwatch shell. I've known him for half a decade, cool guy.

He comes on his recently Abyssea-burned SCH to all of our runs because PUP is pretty much useless. It's straight up impossible to force the puppet to use really weak weaponskills for procs, so it's far worse in practice than it is on paper. It can't handle every H2H proc, and the rest of its weapons are pretty fail tier, so we're better off just bringing a Mnk to cover everything PUP can do and then some.

I don't think you realize that doing damage is a secondary, hell even tertiary concern these days. PUP can certainly DD with the rest of the big boys, no one's denying that. Hell, so can Dragoon in Abyssea. That doesn't make Dragoon worth a crap in Abyssea. That simply doesn't make it useful when the focus of the game has shifted away from ZERGZERGZERGZERGZERG REPEAT.

Ironically, PUP as it is now would have been a lot more useful 4 years ago.

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DRG's a good DD too outside :< All my favorite jobs keep getting shot down qq...

But yeah I have SCH too... Thankfully, we recently got a second SCH so I get to drg or pup more often lol

Abyssea : You named all the magic WSs that almost every job /WAR can do. That doesn't make PUP a good Abyssea proc job, it makes WAR a good Abyssea proc sub. Also, PUP/WAR can't do Cyclone and Energy Drain.

Voidwatch: Similarly, being able to occasionally rival the damage of a BLM nuke (hint: BLMs aren't there for damage and aren't competitive with DDs) doesn't make it a good Voidwatch job. I'd put PUP as a proccer about on the usefulness level of DNC as a proccer.

Salvage: You don't need an Evasion build for Salvage. At 95, you should cap evade rate in your TP gear thanks to traits. I go DNC/THF to Salvage for TH because my evade rate is perma capped and Utsu isn't doing much for me.

Dynamis: Being able to proc or have TH doesn't make you able to proc with TH, and means there are many jobs better suited to it than PUP.

Again, it's not like PUP can't do any of the things I named... it's just that they're not a good choice if you have other options. Abyssea xp rates have made it so almost everyone has other options.

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Originally Posted by Miera

I really think Automatons needed the love more than Spirits..

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The point is that they share the same code and same problems. Sharing the solution seems logical.

Think like this. You got a math problem saying 3 + 5 = ?. Next math problem is 5 + 3 = ?.

That is your automaton and spirit code. Very similar, but not exactly the same. SE just solved 3 + 5 = 8. I suggest they solve 5 + 3 = ? while they worked out the solution to 3 + 5.


It is only logical and easy. I don't claim that it is right or deserved.

Yet another comparison. Your son is mowing the lawn. He seems to finish very fast so you ask him if he really did cut all of it. His reply is "I only did half, because it needed it more than the other half".

Again, it would have been easiest to just mow the whole lawn at once. Splitting it up so you mow half on tuesdays and half on fridays will just make it more annoying to do.


As you see, no denying PUP needs it more. Just saying that they could as well finish all AI adjustments in the same batch.

I love how people didn't read the OP and only the one-liner insult responses and treated them as though they actually referred to the entirety of the content of the OP. If you aren't going to read why are you on a forum again?

Spirits don't define or even represent the SMN ability though Mala.... the avatars do.

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Originally Posted by hiko

really?



totally nothing about spirits

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I said 'except the last'.

Shoulda added bit. But yeah.

Majority of topic is disproportionately talking about that last part.

I still don't get all the SCH love in voidwatch. Id much rather have a PUP over a SCH. Ive stopped taking SCH to VW and replaced it with a DD and have found runs to go much faster/smoother.

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I was reading about how it seemed like you were fixing everything with PUP in a single update and thought it sounded very wonderful. I could however not avoid noticing how a lot of the changes are stuff that are very closely connected to SMN.

Do you have similar plans for Summoner? (I know you supposedly have surveyed us about ward improvements, but it would be nice to know how much you intend on fixing, seeing as you are fixing everything on PUP)

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As one who enjoys all pet jobs I find it somewhat of an insult that you come to write a thread that complains on probably the most broken pet job since it was conceived. You complain now with PUP instead of when BST obtained an over the top JA that turns their jug pets into brief overpowered pets before being forced to dissolve. Or the continued improvements to the DRG's wyvern and its defenses availability as to what it can and can not do. No, it comes down to the PUPs who needed this update for a very long time...

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Like are you going to fix Titan's favor to give damage reduction instead of defense, just how you changed the Armor Plating attachments effects?

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It is a favor, if your Avatar is out any longer than it needs to be to get off a Rage(Which gets gimped to begin with because you used it's Favor) that doesn't require 300 tp to be good or to do a small Ward to cover a heal then something is wrong.

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Are you going to raise the amount of damage reduction on Nocturnal Shield?

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It is a buff that is no different than any other BP Ward buff. It is meant to be over written when given the opportunity.

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Are you going to increase the priority of sleepga from Shiva since it is 1.5 min (sleepga 2) duration, and yet you can't overwrite sleepga 1 (1 min duration)?

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If Sleepga has been landed on a group of mobs, why are you not being more efficient and using Diamond Storm instead? The Ward name says Sleepga not Sleepga II meaning you can't overwrite regardless of the duration, animation or sounds being similar to Sleepga II. Clearly there is a BLM or RDM in the group and your job isn't crowd control in respect of sleeping.

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Are you going to split up and improve healing AI for Light Spirit?

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Spirits should be the least of your concern. Especially the Light one to which has the capacity to cast Regen and other Party Specific only boosts OUTSIDE of the party and into the Alliance.

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Are you going to add new spells to Spirits? (Since apparently it is still only Light Spirit getting new nukes and nothing else)

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Do you really stand there watching your Spirits cast nukes on Monsters or worse yet NMs when you could be more efficient using your actual use as in the 9 soon to be 10 that are in all honesty more powerful and will always be more powerful than a Spirt?

Yes I know there are 11 available and 2 more coming down the pipe but 3 of them will be no more useful than watching paint dry if your Astral flow is Down.

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I'm quite envious at the amount of "fixes" going towards PUP right now. I've always said "fixes" are the only thing SMN needs, and yet all we get is new content. Never do we seem to get adjustments that make our old abilities useful.

Do to wards what you did to attachments, and do to spirits what you did to frames, and I believe you might have rejuvenated SMN into a brand new job.

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The job doesn't need "rejuvenated", maybe a few fixes or requests of more fancy Avatars but it never needed a fix anywhere near the capacity of the Automaton.

Using a math equation for an analogy of the Aumaton and Spirits is horrible as is the lawn cutting scenario. The code isn't the same and if my lawn had any level of importance and my son or daughter had cut the front lawn because its more respectable than my fenced in backyard that noone can see or even care about and might get to it later when there are "less" important chores to take care then fine by me.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

The point is that they share the same code and same problems. Sharing the solution seems logical.

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Even if Spirits and Puppets still have comparable code after all the changes that have been made to puppets over time, there's one more thing to consider when looking for a solution. Do elemental spirits have the same purpose as the mage puppets?

Puppetmasters use their Black Mage puppets for magic damage, and if the White Mage puppet doesn't suck after the coming update, for healing. This works because there's lots of junk they can throw on their animate tea kettles to make the little bros perform less horribly.

Spirits are currently used to try for Elemental Siphon or maybe magical procs in Abyssea and Voidwatch if a bro or bro-ette is desperate. Summoner has other options for magic damage and healing, options which the Summoner can actually control. Plus, there's very little that could affect a Spirit's magical damage beyond a few Pet: Magic AttacK Bonus pieces, so how much magic damage could a "naked" Spirit actually do even if it did cast in a competent manner?

This makes me wonder what the spirits should do better if they are ever improved. If Spirits were made similarly competent to the Black Mage and White Mage puppets, how much would it really add to summoner? If Spirits were made better at casting lots of random spells until something makes a !! pop up, how would that work out? If Spirits were given no perpetuation cost to make Elemental Siphon return a little more MP, would there by any point?

And the most important question of all. Why did I delay a much needed trip to the bathroom to type this post?

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Originally Posted by Kimble

I still don't get all the SCH love in voidwatch. Id much rather have a PUP over a SCH. Ive stopped taking SCH to VW and replaced it with a DD and have found runs to go much faster/smoother.

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We usually put our main SCH with the BLM PT. Unique procs + versatility in healing or helping out with magic procs + Accession-Embrava if needed on a big zerg (Ildebrann, Cactuar, etc). Although in an ideal alliance I would have a SCH and a PUP/MNK.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

We usually put our main SCH with the BLM PT. Unique procs + versatility in healing or helping out with magic procs + Accession-Embrava if needed on a big zerg (Ildebrann, Cactuar, etc). Although in an ideal alliance I would have a SCH and a PUP/MNK.

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In addition to your MNK? Or does your ideal alliance have more than 18 slots in it?

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

In addition to your MNK? Or does your ideal alliance have more than 18 slots in it?

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Instead of.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

Instead of.

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I'd love to hear your reasoning for that. Are you so strapped for healing that the WHM puppet becomes necessary?

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I'd love to hear your reasoning for that. Are you so strapped for healing that the WHM puppet becomes necessary?

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Not sure what you mean. The post to which I was responding talked about having a PUP over a SCH. I merely said in my ideal alliance I'd have both.

H2H procs? Only thing I can imagine. It's not often that a pup frame proc appears in VW.